[Spoilers] Episode 109 Discussion

[Ran]

1 minute ago, $erPounce said:

His head was smashed to death against the table?

His temple struck the "ball of attendance" or whatever that's called that each of the councillors has in front of them. Basically cracked his skull on the weakest point. Would someone really die from that? I've no idea, but I guess it might happen. 

[Ingelheim]

Just now, Leticia Stark said:

Everyone os better in the show except Aegon, he still the scum of the earth just like in the books.

I disagree. I would say Otto is worse than his book counterpart, for one. Daemon too as well.

[C.T. Phipps]

8 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

Am I the only one who is a little thrown off by the show whitewhasing certain Green characters (Alicent mainly, but also Aemond) but making Aegon actually worse?

They seem to be going for many of Mushroom's accounts on him, while making Rhaenyra quite better than she was in the books.

They actually have made Aegon better since he wasn't ****ing kids.

Remember, the Maesters don't even disagree with Mushroom that he was in a brothel getting off when his father came up. Their only defense is that it was a 15 year old rather than a 12 year old.

[Leticia Stark]

1 minute ago, C.T. Phipps said:

They actually have made Aegon better since he wasn't ****ing kids.

Remember, the Maesters don't even disagree with Mushroom that he was in a brothel getting off when his father came up. Their only defense is that it was a 15 year old rather than a 12 year old.

They made him careless about his own bastards, putting them in street fights to die for their lives and money.

That’s pretty messed up too.

[Ingelheim]

1 minute ago, C.T. Phipps said:

They actually have made Aegon better since he wasn't ****ing kids.

Remember, the Maesters don't even disagree with Mushroom that he was in a brothel getting off when his father came up. Their only defense is that it was a 15 year old rather than a 12 year old.

I'm not talking about the supposed sexual relation he was involved when Viserys died, but the kid fighting arena. They say that he comes there to watch kids fight to the death very often.

That's just plain dark and immoral. 

[Ran]

6 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

We are told this episode that he watches kids fighting to the death for amusement. He raped a young maiden last episode and didn't even deny it to his mother.

He was definitely watching children fight in the rat pits in Mushroom's account, and was being pleasured by a "very young girl". Looks pretty similar.

[Ingelheim]

5 minutes ago, Ran said:

He was definitely watching children fight in the rat pits in Mushroom's account, and was being pleasured by a "very young girl". Looks pretty similar.

I know, that's why I said they seem to be using Mushroom's account for him, and just for him. Alicent and Aemond on the other hand seem to be whitewashed to me.

Alicent actually is a different character altogether, while Aemond's motivations are changed a bit.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Ingelheim

[Tywin's Wallet]

Otto is just infuriating. I don't like the greens as is, but:

- I hate how he invalidates Alicent when she made her stand and he replied to her with " you look like your mother". Like "yeah sweety, whatever, you just go be pretty, that's all you're good for"

- Plots behind her daughter's back and behind Viserys while smiling at him and sitting at the king's family dinner table when he was alive. 

- Basically re-sells Alicent to Larys for information.

- Doesn't even give Viserys, "his friend", a proper funeral (who knows they'll just bury him in the style of the faith and not respect Targaryen tradition - I will hate the greens even more if they do this next ep and I already hate them for what they did in the book version).

Otto is gross-  just really gross. 

RIP Lord Beesbury and Lord Caswell . 

Edited October 17, 2022 by Tywin's Wallet
context

[Ran]

Just now, Ingelheim said:

I know, that's why I said they seem to be using Mushroom's account for him, and just for him. Alicent and Aemond of the other hand seem to be whitewashed to me.

Oh, right. I thought you were saying he was even worse than the Mushroom accounts. I agree, he seems to be getting the ugliest version of the histories applied to him so far, but at the same time they have added some dimension to it, and made him much more resitant to being king.

[C.T. Phipps]

I will say that making Aegon a monster actually gives the show the stakes its been lacking.

[Adaneth]

8 minutes ago, Khloey said:

Yes, totally agree. I don't even want to talk about Dorne's storyline in season 5 cause I get really depressed.

I think I started to yell at my screen mid season 4, when it was clear they couldn't handle clever characters like Littlefinger. And given what happened to Tyrion, Varys, or Doran, I was right to be worried by then.

I started to have minor doubts very early on because of some changes, and they became bigger as the show progressed. But I still liked it and had hope. When you like something, you are willing to give the creators a pass. The more you do that and the more you justify the crap they are feeding you. It's a natural reaction, I think, because you love the source material and you want the show to be good. 

Season 4 finale was the moment that I realised something wasn't right, and this was becoming problematic. Lady Stoneheart was already missing in S4. But I remember feeling very weird about the season finale, in particular. On one hand I liked it, but on the other hand there was something bothering me a lot. That "something" was Tyrion. The reason why he killed Tywin and how he departed with Jamie, left me empty, totally confused as what that meant for his story and role in the coming seasons. He was already whitewashed and this just sealed the deal, so to speak. 

I can pass over some stuff, such as; an ill executed battle, duel, maybe timeline (I mean, it depends) less than great value production etc., providing that is a good story with well written characters. I can't pass over narrative logic. But character's motivations, intentions, beliefs, values, consistency, credibility, context, story foundation and such, are very important to me.

[$erPounce]

1 minute ago, Ran said:

He was definitely watching children fight in the rat pits in Mushroom's account, and was being pleasured by a "very young girl". Looks pretty similar.

I don't find Mushroom's account about this particular event particularly credible anyway. He was, I think, in Dragonstone and thus not in the area. In this case, I tend to believe more the accounts of Eustace and Munkun.

[The Bard of Banefort]

19 minutes ago, Ran said:

One of the three sources was Grand Maester Orwyle, who was directly involved and present for the small council. While he colored his pariticpation to try and save his own skin, there's no reason to suppose he futzed around with Alicent's role.

Remember, the show has massively changed the relationship between Alicent and Rhaenyra. We're well off-book when we talk about it, and no amount of "the histories" really matters because for all intents and purposes Alicent is a different character from that of the book canon.

Plus, as you mentioned on a different thread, Eustace had more of a benevolently sexist view towards the women and usually blamed their actions on the corruptive influence of men. Yet even he does not claim that Alicent lacked agency.

17 minutes ago, MisbornHeir said:

No disagreement on the premise and the lack of consistency between fully fledged male and female characters overall.

 

But iirc, Rhaenyra (at least Milly's version) and Alicent have been pretty human to me. A lot more than people like Daemon and Aemond who are creations to their universe. 

I thought the first five episodes went the distance in trying to balance out the book’s account of Rhaenyra and Alicent. But overall I’ve found them both pretty inconsistent.

12 minutes ago, Leticia Stark said:

Everyone is better in the show except Aegon, he still the scum of the earth just like in the books.

Daemon was also pretty evil for a few episodes, but now he just kind of stands around. (Granted, he’s a lot more passive at this point in the books too).

[Ingelheim]

8 minutes ago, Ran said:

Oh, right. I thought you were saying he was even worse than the Mushroom accounts. I agree, he seems to be getting the ugliest version of the histories applied to him so far, but at the same time they have added some dimension to it, and made him much more resitant to being king.

I never took Mushroom's accounts on Aegon very seriously because they seemed too exagerated even for him, but also because he wasn't around KL.

So it throws me a little bit to see this version of him. It's impossible for the average viewer to root for a guy like this. In just two episodes he's raped a little girl and has been shown to watch kids fighting to the death in some sort of fucked up arena underground ring.

I think they are doing this on purpose because they are going to make Aemond a contender for the throne, specially after Rook's Rest. Maybe they even use the Kingmaker part of Cole's character related to Aemond instead of Aegon.

They also seem intended to make Aemond-Helaena a thing, at least on his part. He seems to be in love with her, maybe even in secret.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Ingelheim

[Khloey]

39 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I’m glad to see other people online who are disappointed with this show’s approach to women. 

And I really don’t buy the “unreliable narrator” excuse for every change from the books. There were three different sources referenced for the Green Council in the books—none of them claimed Alicent was anything less than an active participant in the coup. Claiming that the maesters are biased is just a convenient excuse. By that logic, you could argue that the entire story is a lie and therefore completely irrelevant.

I'm more upset by Rheanyra's change than Alicent's. This feels too mcuh as good guys vs bad guys.  At least this episode allows Alicent to have redeaming features. But of course it wouldn't have been necessary if Rhaenyra had been more nuanced instead of this wannabe Dany, "when i'm a queen, I'll create a new order".

I also wished they would have reminded the audience through Otto that Daemon is a pretty big threat to Alicent and her children. No one in their right mind would put faith in Daemon to show mercy towards potential threats. 

I still think these two are the main responsibles for the war, more so than Viserys.

[Rockroi]

6 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

It wasn't accident. But I'd technically put it under self-defense. Manslaughter if you will. Guilty as she may be according to the letter of the law, I do not fault her for that.

Just to reiterate what Ser Scott said: if I am driving my car and I plow through a crowd of people, there is still criminal liability that attaches even if I try to mitigate it with something like, "But somebody was chasing me."  At all times, people must act reasonably, under the circumstances and Rhaenys knew or should have known that her actions would cause people to die.  

Manslaughter is killing somebody in the heat of passion (usually) and then there is Involuntary" Manslaughter wherein you engage in a course of conduct that leads to the death of people, but you never intended anyone to be hurt.  And the classic case there is the Boston "Coconut Grove Fire." IN that case a night club was celebrating a Boston College football victory when a fire broke out; the club owner had decorations and other obstacles in the way of the doors (I have also heard- but never verified - that the club still had doors that opened inward, so when the fire started people could not push them open- but that may be an urban legend).  The result was that nearly 500 people were killed.  

The owner of the night club violated all sorts of laws; but he didn't start the fire nor do anything directly against the victims.  Christ, he was not even in the club that night, recovering from surgery in a hospital room.  He was still charged and convicted of involuntary manslaughter.  

I don't know if anyone is still reading ... 

... regardless, she would be guilty of most likely second degree murder - extreme atrocity with malice aforethought.  

However, lets look at your point because I think you make a good one which is that she is trying to escape and I give her credit for that.  But ... is her escape worth that much death?  I feel like if Meleys had burned three guards and toppled a few roofs in her escape, that would be okay.  But this was wanton murder of people that were just there and it has to make a reasonable person somewhat angry at her.  

6 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Should she have killed them? Absolutely. I think it was a mistake...a slightly out-of-character mistake seeing that the book version of Rhaenys is known to have a horrible temper. Her decision to show mercy is going to cause friction within Team Black and she's probably going to end up regretting it.

And this is my problem as well- this is not in-character for a woman who really was always playing for keeps.  She had a golden opportunity to end a war before it began.  The reasons on-line are just like "This was actually a good thing..." and all I can think is "Well... yeah if you are not the ones who have to fight in this dumb war..." Then its shit.  

MY theory is that nothing will happen to her.  Somebody wills ay "Why didn't you kill them," and she will say "And be cursed as a kinslayer!!!" And that will be it and that's RELALY sad because the will all now be kinslayers.  All of it could have been avoided.  

And you had another point, namely that the war has not started and nobody wants to do anything rash, and I can see that too, but only to a point.  The reality is that the Blacks are behind and need to do rash acts to catch up.  

BTW in the "Coming Attractions" for next week, one of the first things they plan to do is besiege King's Landing... guaranteeing that many many more people will die.  And because of all this, something has to be done about Aegoin's children's anyway, so its not like they will be spared regardless.  Hooray... 

I am just seeing a lot of Rhaenys apologists on many of the web pages and I think its judicious; they say "It would have weakened House Taragryen..." or "It would have caused chaos."  

I think the opposite; if Rhaenys BBQs the King, Queen, Hand, Queen regent, KG, Aemond, and yeah the High Septon, she ends the war.  YEs, Aemon's other children are alive, but NOBODY is going to use them for years.  She would have lopped off the head of the Greens and left a massive power vacuum that had an easy and available filler: Rhaenyra.  Rhaeynra would have flown back to KL, taken up residence in the Red Keep, summoned her own small counsel made up of those loyal to her and immediately begun haranguing the Greens as Usurpers and traitors to her Father's word; she would have welcomed into the Queen's peace anyone who may have bent the knee to Aegon, and dealt with the members of the small counsel as she saw fit.  She then would have said that Princess Rhaeyns  was under "house arrest" on Driftmark until they could investigate what happened, then quietly clear her of any wrongdoing.  She spends the next 5 years working on bringing the Hightowers back into the peace.  MEanwhile she has dragons, armies, money and a realm without an enemy. 

In other words... war: averted.  

The reality is that once you are in for a penny, you are in for a pound.  If you are going to FIGHT this war ... why not, instead, win it?  

[C.T. Phipps]

HOUSE OF THE DRAGON 1x09 "THE GREEN COUNCIL" is easily the best of the episodes so far. I think this will be a controversial decision but it's how I feel. After a lot of issues with previous episodes, I think this masterfully builds on what has come before and sets up the conflict between the Blacks and the Greens that will hopefully begin next book.

The premise is that King Viserys has finally died and Alicent believes that he named Aegon his heir on his deathbed. She proceeds to go to the Small Council and announce this stunning fact, only to find out they're already planning on naming Aegon the heir regardless of the king's wishes. Furthermore, they plan on killing Rhaenyra and her heirs (as well as Daemon) because this was always their plan.

Alicent is appalled by this, which is kind of ridiculous because Otto has been stating that Rhaenyra would have to kill her children for Aegon's entire life. It apparently never occurred to Alicent in all this time that the reverse would be true. However, the wheels are already in motion for Aegon II's usurpation and begin with Ser Criston Cole murdering a member of the Small Council. The fact Aegon II is drunk in some brothel or child fighting pit (seriously, King's Landing is the Gotham City of fantasy settings) and can't be found is not enough to delay their treason.

I'm going to state that I think all the people complaining about the Greens getting vilified and the Blacks getting whitewashed missed the point that this provides honest-to-God stakes for the conflict. Aegon II is utterly unworthy of the throne and someone who will only bring misery and death to those around him. The fact he's controlled by Otto and his deluded mother doesn't make it any better. It means that we actually care how this conflict ends and I think that's important for this kind of story.

I really like how awful Otto is and he's not even competant at his scheming. One of the first things he does is start hanging Great Lords of the realm when they refuse to bend the knee. The Lannisters knew this was a mistake when they threw Ned in the dungeon and compelled his obedience through threats to his family. He's an obvious, foul, and unpleasant manipulator that only got as far as he did thanks to his daughter's better politicking. Hell, he's only Hand of the King because of her and Larys working together.

The real MVP of this episode, though, is Princess Rhaenys. The Queen who Never was is being held under house arrest as they try to figure out if she supports Princess Rhanyra's claim or not. Rhaenyra really doesn't want to, suspecting her of killing Laenor, but the fact is that she's also betrothed her children to Rhaenyra's. There's also the fact that the Hightowers are scheming, grasping, and repulsive upstarts dancing on her cousin's grave. She gets both a silly and awesome scene at the end where I can only think, "You are going to regret not saying a single word here."

I also liked the depiction of Aemond this episode as we find out he's an erudite, serious, and well-trained man ready to serve the kingdom. In other words, everything his brother is not. I think he even felt out Criston Cole over whether it would be justified to murder his brother but the traitor Kingsguardsman just sort of deliberately ignored it. One of the rare subtle scenes between both and I think worked really well.

Some people are going to be obsessed with the whole "foot fetish" thing but I actually think it actually serves a useful in-story purpose. Alicent has cloaked herself in the "Madonna/Whore" complex with her serving as the holy good one to the evil sexualized Rhaenyra. The fact she's forced to somewhat prostitute herself to Larys to work against her own father is an important bit of characterization for showing she's not any better. Indeed, Rhaenys has her number that she doesn't want to break free but put a window in her prison.

In conclusion, I really enjoyed this episode and think it may be my favorite all. The scheming and firm commitment to just what a scummy bunch of monsters the Greens are, finally gives us a reason to care that they be kept from the throne at all costs. We also get some solid politicking and brutal atrocities. If they can keep this up through the Dance then I'll be all over this series for years to come.

10/10

[apovsic]

I liked the episode, not loved, cause some parts felt off, but man, the last scene, was it really needed? It felt like SHOCK scene with no real purpose, like the writers realized that they are in the 9th episode and need some BIG scene and quickly added that. It just doesn't work for me.

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, teej6 said:

Aemond actually says “I’m next in line”. That does not imply he’s usurping Aegon’s rights but his son’s. 

He can be of the opinion that he is next in line as Viserys' male heir. I mean, he was brought up that way, and Aegon's children have been around for only a couple of years by that point. Rhaenyra's sons as sons of the Heir Apparent are fixed as being destined to sit the throne one day, but nobody ever bothered including Alicent's grandchildren in a line of succession.

And in the book Aemond implies that he is Aegon's heir, too.

7 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I wonder if they plan to use Rhaenys' refusal to kill all the greens at the Dragonpit as a motivation for her risky flight to Rook's Nest next season. If Corlys blames her for not taking the chance to end the war before started, and after Luke and other fatalities start to pile up, she may decide to atone her fault by going solo to defend the black cause.

That will depend how they are going to fly with the war issue. Rhaenys not killing all the Greens clearly is supposed to be her gesture that they can keep the peace somehow. The problem there is that she was uniquely positioned to take out all the Greens, cancelling the need for peace. Even if Rhaenys is not convinced yet to side with Rhaenyra ... her daughters might end up in her camp, so she should have acted in their best interest there.

More over, though, her own flight on dragonback only makes sense if she was afraid for her own life. Else why leave at all? If doesn't trust the Greens, how could she buy that they will keep any promises of peace they might be making?

But, certainly ... if she ends up regretting this decision it might cause her to risk her own life repeatedly later during the war. Although I still think Rhaenyra and Syrax will be at Rook's Rest, and Rhaenys will remain behind and sacrifice herself to cover her escape ... and possibly that of Jace and Baela as well.

[Adaneth]

52 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I’m glad to see other people online who are disappointed with this show’s approach to women. 

And I really don’t buy the “unreliable narrator” excuse for every change from the books. There were three different sources referenced for the Green Council in the books—none of them claimed Alicent was anything less than an active participant in the coup. Claiming that the maesters are biased is just a convenient excuse. By that logic, you could argue that the entire story is a lie and therefore completely irrelevant.

If it wasn't the “unreliable narrator”, there would be something else. Like, "but George never wrote this didn't happen". Ring a bell?