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[Spoilers] Episode 109 Discussion


Ran
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6 minutes ago, SeanF said:

In light of recent events it is blackly funny that in Russia, the final season received a furious reaction from viewers, simply because no one could see what the issue was with burning down Kings Landing and massacring the inhabitants.  But, yes, I had a number of friends and acquaintances who took the view that Kings Landing got what was coming to it.  There's probably a bit of a medieval executioner in a lot of us.

Really?  That’s fucking awful.

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36 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

Skimmed the thread so not sure if it’s been mentioned, buried at the beginning of the episode as it was, but after the wedding fight that Criston started and got away with … he straight up murders one of the small council. OK it was an unusual circumstance, but nah. White cloaks can’t just murder the small council regardless of how convenient it might be for some present.

ETA: yes it’s been discussed, nvm.

I mean, Otto basically makes it clear to the Lord Commander that he's pardoned. Why he turns in his cloak.

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14 minutes ago, Happy Ent said:

Wasn’t it open in episode 1, then young!Rhaenyra lands; more like an arena?

She flies over it and  then lands behind it in an area of the Hill of Rhaenys where there's an opening into the underground portion of the Dragonpit. The big structure is impressive, but there's huge lairs dug beneath it for the dragons.

14 minutes ago, Happy Ent said:

Where does the roof come from, and why is it there?

Security I suppose? Control the entrance and exit of dragons rather than letting them fly off as they please if something goes wonky. 

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20 minutes ago, SeanF said:

As always, Tywin and Ser Kevan dial up the cruelty to eleven.  They do seek to maximise casualties among the smallfolk of the enemy, in order to break their spirits.

But, among the rest, I think Catelyn is the only one who actually cares sufficiently about non-noble lives to  think that peace is worth having, even if one has to swallow one's pride. Ned, Stannis, and Robb don't want the smallfolk to suffer, but accept that they will have to suffer in order for them to defend themselves/avenge wrongs done to their families/take the crown.

I’d say Doran too. The main reason he never struck back at the Lannisters was out of fear of what would happen to his people of war came to Dorne.

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10 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Really?  That’s fucking awful.

According to Medieval law, they did have it coming. The city refused to surrender, sought refuge with a usurper queen, and a bunch of other actions that make Jon's actions nonsensical.

Especially as it was his sister's treason that started it.

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56 minutes ago, Happy Ent said:

This Week in Contemporary Marxism

 

“Supreme executive power derives from a mandate of the masses.” Spoken not exactly like that, but close enough to turn the entire scene with Mysaria into Monty Python. As if anybody of her standing, in her time, with her background, or her job, would care for children’s pit fighting. Another embarrassing insert of late 21st century morality performed with the narrative delicacy and historical understanding of an 8-year old.

The verisimilitude of depicting the lower classes is zero. Who is this? When does this happen? Does anybody believe this?

Mysaria is a peasant so I'm not sure to unpack this. It's not like the lower classes didn't hate the nobility in the actual Middle Ages. Before the nobility got their grubby mitts on the legends, Robin Hood and other legendary outlaws were proper peasant heroes and not nobility. Everything we know about Medieval legends and folklore is they nodded their heads in public while knowing the nobility were assholes in charge by force of arms rather than divine right.

Also speaking as an anarchist and anti-communist, Praise Wat Tyler as the true father of revolution.

And the lesson we learned from him?

Fuck kings.

Their word is worthless.

(An even older source is the good book itself where God points out how moronic the idea of kings is)

Edited by C.T. Phipps
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I think a lot of people found the Rhaenys thing painfully stupid and unnecessary. Honestly, most of the episode is fine, it's just that and the Larys foot fetish thing...

I really think ten is going to be very hard for them to screw up.

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1 minute ago, C.T. Phipps said:

According to Medieval law, they did have it coming. The city refused to surrender, sought refuge with a usurper queen, and a bunch of other actions that make Jon's actions nonsensical.

Especially as it was his sister's treason that started it.

That's the thing.  The rules of urban warfare were very well-established (right up to WWII really).   A surrender would usually be accepted, until such point as the city walls were breached.  After that point, no quarter would be given.

But, Cersei, by executing a prominent prisoner ,when offered quarter, had effectively ruled out any possible surrender. That would be taken by everyone to mean that negotiations were at an end.

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This is the first time the series did something I really didn't like. What happened at the end was unnecessary and ruined a great crowning scene. The show went for spectacle at the expense of good storytelling; something GoT did time and time again in the latter seasons.

I'm also worried the show is going to go the way of Rings of Power and keep trying to deliver these cringeworthy "Girl Power" moments. No, killing a bunch of civilians with a dragon doesn't become cool and badass just cause a woman did it.

There actually should be serious consequences for what Rhaenys did. I'll be happy with the writing if, say, more people turn against the Blacks as a result of it. But I've got a bad feeling the writers simply wanted the spectacle and didn't much care for consequences. A very D+D thing to do, I'm sad to say.

I guess it's tough being a show writer cause you can be on top of your game for 8 episodes but make one big mistake in the 9th and people start to lose trust in you. I just hope this isn't the first step in the series devolving like GoT did.

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8 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Ruh-roh, I’m starting to see people online compare this last episode to. . . gulp. . . Season 8 :ph34r:

On the other hand, I've seen many people, particularly on Youtube and the official HOTD subreddit, who absolutely loved the ending. 

Edited by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy
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5 minutes ago, Ran said:

She flies over it and  then lands behind it in an area of the Hill of Rhaenys where there's an opening into the underground portion of the Dragonpit. The big structure is impressive, but there's huge lairs dug beneath it for the dragons.

OK, rewatched and got it. And instead of using that “landing/entrance area” for her escape Rheanys decides to break through the floor because (a) she can and (b) the showrunners liked the idea; not because that’s the only way out and Meleys is trapped beneath the floorboards (as I seem to have thunk).

Cheers, Ran.

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1 minute ago, SeanF said:

That's the thing.  The rules of urban warfare were very well-established (right up to WWII really).   A surrender would usually be accepted, until such point as the city walls were breached.  After that point, no quarter would be given.

But, Cersei, by executing a prominent prisoner ,when offered quarter, had effectively ruled out any possible surrender. That would be taken by everyone to mean that negotiations were at an end.

Daeny's actions were nonsensical

Jon's actions were nonsensical

And the ending was nonsensical.

Everyone's actions were nonsensical.

Jon's actions are arguably questionable even under modern rules of warfare.

But this is a well-trodden path.

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3 minutes ago, Ran said:

I think a lot of people found the Rhaenys thing painfully stupid and unnecessary. Honestly, most of the episode is fine, it's just that and the Larys foot fetish thing...

I really think ten is going to be very hard for them to screw up.

I was fine with the foot fetish thing, it's appropriate since he has a clubfoot.

I was thoroughly enjoying the episode up until the Rhaenys thing.

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2 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Mysaria is a peasant so I'm not sure to unpack this. It's not like the lower classes didn't fucking hate the nobility in the actual Middle Ages. Before the nobility got their grubby mitts on the legends, Robin Hood and other legendary outlaws were proper peasant heroes and not nobility. Everything we know about Medieval legends and folklore is they nodded their heads in public while knowing the nobility were assholes in charge by force of arms rather than divine right.

Also speaking as an anarchist and anti-communist, Praise Wat Tyler as the true father of revolution.

And the lesson we learned from him?

Fuck kings.

As far as I can tell, class conflict was very unusual in medieval times (you can see it, but mostly, in conflicts between burgesses and nobles, eg in Flanders, and Northern Italy, places that were heavily urbanised).  Even Wat Tyler's revolt was mostly a revolt of prosperous peasants, guildsmen,  and minor gentry against oppressive government.

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1 minute ago, Darryk said:

There actually should be serious consequences for what Rhaenys did. I'll be happy with the writing if, say, more people turn against the Blacks as a result of it. But I've got a bad feeling the writers simply wanted the spectacle and didn't much care for consequences. A very D+D thing to do, I'm sad to say.

The people of King's Landing eventually turn against dragons and the lack of killing the Greens results in Rhaenys death.

I'm not sure why people don't think this will have consequences.

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2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

As far as I can tell, class conflict was very unusual in medieval times (you can see it, but mostly, in conflicts between burgesses and nobles, eg in Flanders, and Northern Italy, places that were heavily urbanised).  Even Wat Tyler's revolt was mostly a revolt of prosperous peasants, guildsmen,  and minor gentry against oppressive government.

No offense but this is actually why I don't think much of Marx's interpretation of Revolution because the same holds true in the 20th and 21st centuries. Revolutions can recruit the peasantry and working class but to be able to think about revolution, you need to be doing more than surviving and have enough of an education or acquaintance with rights to be pissed about them. Hence why Revolution was never of the agrarian class but born of the urban city or middle class even when lionizing the agarian class (like many Marxist revolts).

Which to keep it Westerosi, the Smallfolk eventually revolt not because of the Smallfolk but because of the Clergy because the Clergy are an educated subclass of the peasantry and above them but not completely divorced from it like the nobility.

Edited by C.T. Phipps
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5 hours ago, DMC said:

Why should she know this is "how this game goes?"  She grew up participating in the Great Council, where the game obviously did not go anywhere close to the Dance.  Moreover, as Rhaenys herself says in the pilot, it's been 70 (now 80) years since Maegor's end, virtually nobody living in Westeros knows real war - at least between each other.

But everyone who we get near seems to think it will lead to war; people are preparing for war; Viserys feared it would lead to war; Hightower acts like its leading to war.

Rhaenys is far too smart to claim ignorance; she cannot be this smart and say "War? What's that? No, it won't lead to that!" 

No.  She knows; everyone seems to know.  Her defenders besmirch this great character by trying to paint her as ignorant.    

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6 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Mysaria is a peasant so I'm not sure to unpack this.

She is what now? She’s a dancer, possibly a whore, and later a master of whisperers. But  a peasant? I must have missed something.

Ignoring for a moment a spirited exchange about the CVs of fictional characters, her comment “There is no power but what the people allow you to take” is anachronistic to the point of self-parody. This is hilarious!

Compare to the timeless classic “Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses,” which was juvenile satire in 1975 for crying out loud!

We’ve come to a point where the farcical attempts at earnest political commentary in an expensive TV show are semantically identical to the first Monty Python movie. I have no words for how inane this is, how stupid, how intellectually embarrassing. I am mortified and would be ashamed if it weren’t so-bad-it’s-good; the childish self-importance of political and historical incompetence, the utter failure to even try to understand how anybody else has ever thought, the lack of empathy, the arrogance of ignorance, … all of this would be scream to the heavens were it not devised in a political climate that has normalised myopia and idiocy and overshadowed by acting and direction that makes Terry fucking Jones look like Ingrid Bergman.  

It’s unintentionally auto-parodic and unintentionally bad acting, a scene that is in every respect inferior than a scene from the Holy Grail that tries to be ridiculous and acted over-the-top. Words fail me to explain how bad this was.

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Painful episode.

 

clubfoot foot fetish, just why?

 

the stupid pointless fight scene at the sept of baelor.

 

westerling getting to leave unmolested, wonder if its his boat gendry ends up using:huh:

 

why stove in beesbury’s temple and not just slit his throat?

 

glad rhaenys had time to armour up before, minus the helmet that probably would have helped smashing through a stone floor. Nice to see meleys threading the needle though:bang:

 

These show runners must have been D&D interns…..

 

sigh

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