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[Spoilers] Episode 110 Discussion


Ran
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Really like this episode though!

I don’t mind the changed around Aemond, it’s not like he‘s 100% uninvolved in the killing of Lucaerys. He still chased him and finally got to him, no matter if intentional or not.

I cannot believe it’s going to be ~2years until we will see the show going on, I was hoping for at least Raenyra‘s „revenge“ w/ blood&cheese .. 

Overall really not disappointed in the show though!!

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27 minutes ago, marsyao said:

No, King's knights were the first to take the oath, and that made Erryk a traitor and an oathbreaker

Horseshit.  He never took the oath to Aegon II… as the usurper.  He fled Kings Landing after freeing Rhaenys.  

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8 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

I liked the "change" (as pointed out, nobody knows if it's really a change, because there were no witness to the actual fight- show Aemond so far has not been murderous, just a prick).

I don't think they're whitewashing anyone- as pointed out numerous times, the book is based on conflicting and in many cases biased stories. It also just makes more sense to have the characters keep escalating in awfulness as the war wages on. Season 1 Aemond won't be a ruthless murderer spreading terror throughout the Riverlands, s03 will be.

I've heard many people claim that F&B is somewaht biased in favour of the Greens. If that's the case, though, I'd hate to see a Pro-Black version of F&B, because... yikes.

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28 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

What's your take on Aemond not wanting to kill Luke and losing control of Vhagar?

To me it's the most significant change they've made to the book story, even more than Alicent's.

I think it gives Aemond depth but also deprives him of agency. He basically starts the DoD by accident.

I like it though, show Aemond didn't seem half as mad as his book version.

Aemond is a turd created by his brother and his cousins.  His desire for vengeance and lack of respect for guest right and Parlay started the Dance.  

He wanted to give like for like and gave far more than he imagined.

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1 minute ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

With the change to Luke’s death I wouldn’t be surprised if they have Aemond be the actual father of Aegon’s kids thus when B&C happens it will send him over the edge leading to the RL genocide 

That doesn't make any sense. Nothing indicates he's sleeping with Helaena 

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1 minute ago, zajaz said:

I've heard many people claim that F&B is somewaht biased in favour of the Greens. If that's the case, though, I'd hate to see a Pro-Black version of F&B, because... yikes.

Really? I always saw it as being more pro-black (except for Blood and Cheese and when Aegon was initially reluctant to take the crown).

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What I did not like about the dragon fight was how easily Vhagar catches up to Arrax. Arrax should have been faster and nimble, but it looks like Vhagar just outmanoeuvres Arrax despite being larger. Visually, it was pretty cool though. 

And yeah, same question, what was Aemond even trying to accomplish there. 

They also showed some kind of psychic connection between Rhaenyra and Syrax, which showed a bit of skinchanger like abilities, something that was downplayed in GoT (was so disappointed that we did not get a full-fledged Varamyr Sixskins). This was one aspect of Westeros that always intrigued me. 

Oh, and they gave Daemon some pretty kickass lines, that Matt delivered gloriously. 

Edited by slant
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4 minutes ago, slant said:

Im actually liking the changes in the show. Rhaenyra not being hesitant about sending her kids out, shows more confidence in them. Aemond killing Luce because he lost control of Vhagar. 

Actually, it is more because Luke lost control of Arrax. Vhagar finishes them off because the toy dragon dared to annoy her. She couldn't let that stand. And why should she?

I think this is yet another take of the show of the dragons as monstrous beasts the people have to be a right to be afraid of. The Storming of the Dragonpit won't be an evil slaughter fest.

The main fault, of course, lies with Aemond, who nobody forced to chase Luke. Intention doesn't matter all that much - I don't think he is particularly sorry ... but he has the grace and intelligence to realize that he and his branch of the family are in serious trouble now considering their dragon disadvantage.

10 minutes ago, zajaz said:

DaemonxRhaenyra stans in shambles during the choking scene.

Really don't have any issue with that. The idea that Daemon would not beat or hurt Rhaenyra behind closed doors was never one I did entertain. The guy was a sadist, possibly even a sexual sadist, and we talk a world and society where neither wife-beating nor marital rape are crimes.

I'd not expect this to have happened all that often, especially not after Rhaenyra was crowned queen ... because she was a monarch then and Daemon could easily have overreached there, but it makes sense this would have happened in that particular scene.

What gets to him there is his anger over what he perceives as 'the murder' of his brother (a delusion he seems to come up with to cope with the fact that he effectively abandoned Viserys and now can never make it up to him), the fact that his wife now seems the very embodiment of the weakness he loathed in his brother ... and, of course, the realization that neither Viserys nor Baelon nor Jaehaerys ever trusted him with the big family secret about the Song of Ice and Fire.

No head of House Targaryen ever viewed him as worthy of the Iron Throne.

(The show dropped the ball by so far not addressing whether Rhaenys knows about Aegon's dream - as Aemon's only child she could, and this could have helped to explain why she ends up siding with Rhaenyra and also why she didn't torch the Greens. Hopefully season 2 digs into this issue before Rhaenys bites the dust.)

17 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Assuming they stick to the books. we will be seeing Jace step up in Daemon's absence. FnB emphasizes his strength in leadership and diplomacy (perhaps something he inherited from Grandpa Lyonel)--neither of which Daemon, a loner and loose canon, is particularly good at. I do wish we got a bit more of Jace standing up to him though. I thought it was telling that Jace refers to him by his name, and not by his title or as "stepfather." He doesn't seem to quite trust Daemon, and it's easy to see why. 

Since Rhaenyra can already ride Syrax again, I don't think Jace is going to play her role. He will be her second-in-command, of course, but on Dragonstone Rhaenyra should call the shots.

Little chance for more clashes with Daemon since he is going to leave for Harrenhal in the very near future, one imagines.

I'm wondering, though, whether there could be some Vale action which could possibly involve Jace or other dragonriders. We know that Jeyne Arryn faced considerable trouble from her male cousins, so it could make sense to move aspects from the later succession war in the Vale from the Regency era to Dance proper, with Jeyne's first cousin escaping his cell and mounting one of his rebellions against her, possibly/likely backed by the Royces who would be still very wroth over Daemon murdering Rhea.

One could see Jace intervening in such a struggle in the Vale during his return flight from Winterfell, say, or at a later point in the show.

And I also hope they add a subplot to the Storm's End issue, with some dragonriders paying the castle a visit after Luke's death. That they let this issue stand makes no sense in the book. Jace could insist on a show of force there to avenge the death of his brother ... and to show the Baratheons that you do not insult Queen Rhaenyra and get away with it.

If Rhaena is going to mount one of the riderless dragons, we could also see her avenging the death of her betrothed.

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26 minutes ago, zajaz said:

According to some people, you can’t be angry with some of the changes the show has made because F&B was written by unreliable sources.

Yes.  That is explicit in the book.  Even if the sources are 100% reliable… historians are human they can be wrong.

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I also like how people are claiming that Daemon just now has been turned into a more evil character than his book self. Really? Choking Rhaenyra is where you draw the line? Not bashing his first wife's head with a rock just so he could be free to marry Rhaenyra? Or virtually ignoring his daughter just because she did not have a dragon? Or killing an innocent dude in order to let Laenor flee Westeros? Like it or not, (Show) Daemon is a piece of shit.

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23 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I feel like they should have introduced the idea that they don't have full control over the dragons before this. There was Visery's speech in the first episode but I didn't take that literally.

Maybe they felt they did that in Aemond’s first flight and in this episode when Syrax was screaming but Rhaenyra was calm.

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9 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Can we take a moment to talk about how good Storm's End and Shipbreaker Bay looked?

Good God...Condal and Sapochnik have really, really captured the World of Ice and Fire. D&D never put this much effort in.

Couldn't it be budget issues, tho? As much as I dislike what D&D did, I found the Wall and the Lands Beyond the Wall to be quite beautiful, back in GoT.

Edited by zajaz
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5 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Can we take a moment to talk about how good Storm's End and Shipbreaker Bay looked?

Good God...Condal and Sapochnik have really, really captured the World of Ice and Fire. D&D never put this much effort in.

Everything feels better in this show than it ever did on GOT, imo, and GOT already looked fantastic. But the cinematography, production design, and CGI here in HOTD is just brilliant.

 

Edited by Ingelheim
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1 minute ago, zajaz said:

I also like how people are claiming that Daemon just now has been turned into a more evil character than his book self. Really? Choking Rhaenyra is where you draw the line? Not bashing his first wife's head with a rock just so he could be free to marry Rhaenyra? Or virtually ignoring his daughter just because she did not have a dragon? Or killing an innocent dude in order to let Laenor flee Westeros? Like it or not, (Show) Daemon is a piece of shit.

Meh

Out of all of the characters, Daemon Targaryen is the most accurately adapted character in the whole series so far. The showrunners did a good job.

I don't think Daemon is an more evil character than his book self. People who feel like that need to reread Fire and Blood. I think that both versions are about the same.

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Decent episode.  Even knowing the story, the final scene had me on edge.   Eve Best is really fantastic again this episode.  Regarding the direction to make the final scene a "things escalating too fast/getting out of hand" incident - I don't hate it; but, as someone pointed out above, when you combine this with Alicen'ts misunderstanding of Viserys' ramblings, the writers are relying a little too much on 'mistakes'.   

Overall, I enjoyed this season; but, still wonder if long term the popularity of this show can be sustained with non-readers.   I'm just not sure that Lucerys' death had the impact for the common audience that most deaths in GoT had.  We didn't really see him enough.   The other problem the show still has:  not enough high points or humor.    Despite all the death and emotional lows GoT had, there was humor, and each season ended on a high of some kind (dragons born, someone proclaimed King in the North, Arya sailing away/home, Dany setting sail).   The GoT audience was on an emotional roller-coaster.   HotD has pretty much been all 'downers' - which will drag on an audience after a while.   I would think that even if you're rooting for the greens, the 'losing control' take makes the ending to this season somewhat of a downer/lessens any triumph/feeling of accomplishment/success.  

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17 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Yes.  That is explicit in the book.  Even if the sources are 100% reliable… historians are human they can be wrong.

Still weird that no one remembers a giant freaking dragon killing or maiming like a hundred people the day Aegon was crowned, tho. Or that Alicent was actually around Rhaenyra's age, instead of a decade older, like most maesters claimed. Or that Viserys actually died because he turned into the cryptkeeper, and not because he got obese.

Edited by zajaz
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