[Spoilers] Episode 110 Discussion

[The Bard of Banefort]

4 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I dunno, that's a weird remark to make when the biggest change of this episode is that a male character known as a Complete MonsterTM who massacres entire towns is shown to have not intended to do one of his most infamous acts.

Aemond still has a personality. He's not passive. He chose to challenge Luke and then to hop on Vhagar and pursue him. 

[Corvinus85]

33 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Are we assuming he didn't want to kill him?

Because, he was chasing him down.

What did people think he thought would happen? That he'd pull over and surrender?

No, he meant to kill him and the dragon knew it.

I think he was amazed at his own handiwork.

Some of the shots indicate that he didn't mean to kill him. When Vhagar suddenly appears in front of Arrax, she could have gobbled him up right there, but she pulled up. And not once did Vhagar unleash flames, which Aemond could have easily commanded.

[Mark Antony]

Emma D’Arcy was really great this episode. I felt so bad for Luc. Can’t wait for Cregan and Winterfell next season. Glad they mentioned Cregan being young. Was worried they’d age him up a lot 

[zajaz]

15 minutes ago, TormundsWoman said:

I will be very straightforward and honest about this:

I still think that if you feel you must voluntarily explain your reasoning in a set up as this Inside the Ep, before people even ask you about it, then you are either unsure of your work (that your message got across) or you think you didn’t do a good job to begin with. But that’s just me.

I don't think they even needed to explain it. It seemed quite clear to me that Aemond was just a bully with a gun... but he never actually wanted to pull the trigger. Sadly, said trigger is able to think for herself, it seems. That being said, that still makes Aemond responsable for Luke's death, but on a lesser scale than his book self was (assuming, of course, that Book Aemond didn't also kille Luke by accident).

Edited October 24, 2022 by zajaz

[Ingelheim]

4 minutes ago, Mark Antony said:

Emma D’Arcy was really great this episode. I felt so bad for Luc. Can’t wait for Cregan and Winterfell next season. Glad they mentioned Cregan being young. Was worried they’d age him up a lot 

Both her and Milly were great this season. I feel like the casting's been really good, except maybe for Ser Criston (I like the actor but he looks far younger than he should, and they haven't made any effort to age him up).

Ewan Mitchell as Aemond is brilliant

[BlackLightning]

8 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

This episode also confirmed for me what I was saying last week, that the screenwriters have turned all the female characters into saints and martyrs, and in doing so have inadvertently stripped them of their agency and personality (and it's been gratifying to see other people online talking about this over the course of the last week). I'm sure part of it is because of a genuine desire to rectify the mistakes from GOT, but I also think another part is a fear of the same backlash that D&D received, who were accused of being misogynists and worse. And I think that's understandable, by the way--just look at how deranged the Twitter scolds have been towards Sara Hess for a handful of fairly innocuous statements this past week. But ultimately, Alicent and Rhaenyra are not passive peace-makers who get bossed around by the men in their lives. In the books, Alicent actively conspired to usurp the throne, and Rhaenyra reacted to that usurpation with rage and action. The message they seem to be going for on the show is that if everyone had listened to the two queens, the world would be at peace, but men and their egos ruined everything.

. . . which isn't as empowering as the writers seem to believe it is. Elizabeth I, Isabella of Castile, Catherine the Great and Catherine de Medici (among others) were all ambitious and powerful. Does that make them less female than if they hadn't been? Strong performances have kept both Rhaenyra and Alicent engaging, but the writers have all but completely flattened them by this point. 

This is a such strange comment.

Just last week Rhaenys was criticized for negligently killing hundreds of smallfolk. And I think you are not understanding how many people dislike Alicent.

In the end, Alicent actively did conspire to usurp the throne and Rhaenyra is responding to this usurpation with pure rage. It's just that they are delaying the actions by giving them softer, more nuanced, more humanistic reasons for doing so.

But to say that only the leading female characters are suffering from this is strange. Aegon has been softened up quite a bit and Aemond is almost a different character. The show version of Laenor is a much better person than the book verison. Otto has become three-dimensional. And they even made Borros nowhere near as much of an asshole as he was in the books.

The only characters that have not been softened and humanized in the TV show are Daemon Targaryen, Rhaenys Targaryen and Larys Strong. Rhaenys and Larys are actually tougher, more active and more competent than their book counterpart.

 

Rhaenyra having to contend with Daemon, the walking loose cannon that Baelon and Alyssa so generously gifted us with, is not something new. The two of them did not always get along. Daemon was cold to Laena and murderously mean to Rhea. Is it really surprising that he would get physical with Rhaenyra? Especially when they are both obviously grieving, angry and on edge.

[Corvinus85]

Btw, all rejoice, House Celtigar exists!

[Lord Varys]

12 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think it comes from an insecurity, both in wanting to do right by the characters, but also of how it will be perceived by the audience. I think I would find it less jarring if Alicent and Rhaenyra were more like their book counterparts, but they're totally different at this point. No change is more head-scratching than Mysaria though. Turning Lady Misery into Jane Addams is a bigger personality swap than any other character has had in either HOTD or GOT. 

I really don't know the character of book Alicent. I mean, the true character, not the evil gold digger and stepmother cliché she is written as. I mean, effectively Alicent Hightower in the book is consistently written as (the slutty version of) Lady Tremaine from Cinderella.

She would be a character of no complexity if they had turned her into a complete villain.

I mean, you can compare her to Otto. I like the guy now because you understand him better. The non-character from FaB we not understood. People mainly hate or love the non-characters from FaB because on whose side they are on ... but that's not really relevant in the show, or shouldn't be.

That said - the Alicent-Rhaenys dialogue in episode 9 was pretty bad. Far too modernistic for my taste.

[Colonel Green]

The scene where Daemon immediately kneels to Rhaenyra at her impromptu coronation amused me since Matt Smith's Prince Philip in The Crown has an episode-length snit about being asked to do this.

[zajaz]

10 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

This is a such strange comment.

Just last week Rhaenys was criticized for negligently killing hundreds of smallfolk. And I think you are not understanding how many people dislike Alicent.

In the end, Alicent actively did conspire to usurp the throne and Rhaenyra is responding to this usurpation with pure rage. It's just that they are delaying the actions by giving them softer, more nuanced, more humanistic reasons for doing so.

But to say that only the leading female characters are suffering from this is strange. Aegon has been softened up quite a bit and Aemond is almost a different character. The show version of Laenor is a much better person than the book verison. Otto has become three-dimensional. And they even made Borros nowhere near as much of an asshole as he was in the books.

The only characters that have not been softened and humanized in the TV show are Daemon Targaryen, Rhaenys Targaryen and Larys Strong. Rhaenys and Larys are actually tougher, more active and more competent than their book counterpart.

 

Rhaenyra having to contend with Daemon, the walking loose cannon that Baelon and Alyssa so generously gifted us with, is not something new. The two of them did not always get along. Daemon was cold to Laena and murderously mean to Rhea. Is it really surprising that he would get physical with Rhaenyra? Especially when they are both obviously grieving, angry and on edge.

Alicent is also being softened, I feel. And is it really usurpation if she honestly belives that she is doing what (she thought) Viserys wanted? From her point of view, Alicent is fighting for both her son, and her husband last wishes.

[Rockroi]

Okay, considering we are unlikely to do this for about 18 months (or so) and I did NOT watch this episode early, here we go:

What I liked:

Queen and Mother of Dragons: Rhaenyra’s emotional roller-coaster crystalized the import of this episode: everything all at once.  We first see Rhaenyra have to deal with the loss of her father, then loss of her child, then the loss of her realm.  As she struggles with what to do (Spoiler: it was always war), she must both command and protect – her realm and her children.  Then, just when she thought she was at her safest, her husband physically assaults her (or as they call it in Westeroes: Thursday).  She is not safe and cannot keep anyone else safe.  And when that finally reaches a boil she looks us dead in the eyes and announces that she will burn them all.  Yes, that look was a wee bit over-the-top but it was well-earned.  The story of this Queen is how her life is split between her children and her realm and how she is both attacked and forced to defend both.  This is much like Viserys, but different: Viserys could afford his vacillations; he was never at war.  His daughter has no such protections: she will spend the rest of her life at war.  

Oh, and I loved that coronation. 

Storm’s End’s Beginning: I liked everything about Storm’s End; I liked Lord Baratheon (and his apparent illiteracy); I liked the high-stakes game; I liked that Luke (or whichever one he was) was both unprepared but also serious; I liked how it was a constant storm and I loved that fucking seat.  No King should sit comfortable and, as usual, the Baratheon’s turned it to 11, This is not a seat that will simply take an oath and be like “Yeah, we said it so guess we will follow it blindly.”  No, that’s House Stark’s job.  Anyway, I liked this visit to the last of the realms.  

Oh, and I liked that Luke seemed overwhelmed by everything.  I think its an incredible pivot from the trope that merely because a child has had a few lessons or has a nice person to hang out with that they somehow become quick witted, able swordmen, and masters of the Game of Thrones (but enough about the last 2 seasons of GoT).  Instead, they have a script, they try to stick to it and then they do what they can, but they are NOT in control.  Luke acted like … a little kid.  And that worked.  

A Dance of These Two Dragons:  That was bad-ass!!!  

Okay, next!  

 

 

…. Okay, just kidding.  Yes, it was bad ass but I think we saw – in stark terms – how dangerous actually fighting with dragons will be.  And that not all dragons were created equal.  Just like that, one dragon, Arax (I think) is dead.  Poof… or Puff… look, I’m trying …  The point being that they can be slain just like anyone else and just like that.  Oh, and that Aemond and Vahgar are bad asses.  

But I also think it showed how susceptible- and unpredictable – the dragons are to the emotional state of their riders.  The dragons either acted on instinct OR because they are tapped into the sub-conscious of their riders and acted the way they thought their riders would act.  And that can make it so the dragons don’t do what the riders … “wanted” them to do.  We think.  Free will is suddenly more uncertain than a prophecy.  

But even Aemond one-eye seems … upset by this.  And I get that but a part of me wants to as … “What did you think was gonna happen?!”  Chasing Arax around Storm’s End will likely lead to, at best, lead to a confrontation and that, by definition is uncertain.  What would have happened if wings got clipped or Arax zigged when he should have zagged?  Or, you know, they start breathing fire?  I get that the excuse will be “I didn’t mean it…” But you meant to go out there on a dragon and zoom past another dragon… Intent follows the Maw.  

The Table: Painted Table was brought into greater relief with fire.  An improvement over Stannis’ “It’s a fucking Table; we sit around it!”  Actually… Regardless, it was a great touch.  

War Council Paying Attention: I liked that the talk of troops and territories was trumped by “We have dragons.”  Done and done.  That is vastly more important.  

What I am on the fence on:

Camera Closer… Closer … CLOS… We are in Rhaenyra’s Tonsils: This was the most high-concept episode in terms of the use of the camera and it was … fine… fine … ish?  The camera seemed to always be tight and looking up at the character and the characters … seem almost to know it.  Lots of characters with their backs to the camera; staring off at the scenery.  This, to e, was too passive use of the camera for what we were actually witnessing.  This was a calm within the storm, not before it.  I think the camera use was misplaced.  

What Were You Going To Name This One: So that dead baby got a LOT of screen time, huh? Now, with that said, I think it was portrayed REALLY well and had a lot of emotional weight.  She did a great job and it was pretty good.  Also, kinda gross.  

Daemon: Starting to think he’s JUST an asshole.  

The Meeting on Dragon Stone … Part II: So, Otto shows up… again… on Dragonstone to face Daemon.  And what did he learn from the first one?  I kind of feel like that meeting could only have ended two ways – with the Hightower contingent to leave emptyhanded OR dragon roast.  I feel like there was nothing else that could have happened.  Don't get me wrong; I love me some Otto, but what was he hoping would happen? Unconditional surrender?  Feel like they don't learn from their mistakes.  

And this time.. she is not on your side . . . 

What I Did Not Like 

Doubling Down on Dumb: So, in this episode, the story tried tried TRIED to justify Rhaenys’ absolutely stupid decision to not kill Aegon et al.  They had her say “This is not my war.”  Like her grandchildren are NOT standing a few feet away.  Just ridiculous.  Then we have like 15 shots of her standing in the background and not kneeling and basically trying to send the message that she is above it all.  Then, the Sea Snake shows up… I guess… and he says “We will sit out this war!”  And Rhaenys says, with a straight face, we can’t.

FUCKING PICK ONE!  Either she gets to sit on the sidelines and justify her decision Not to kill Aegon OR she gets to say how just she thinks Rhaynera is the rightful queen and throw in on them.  But she cannot do this whole “One-foot-in-one-foot-out” hokey-pokey.  

And this NONSENSE that she did not know this would lead to war or that this is not HER war just ash to go.  Its as if the showrunners did not see how dumb this was, wanted the spectacle and then realized “Oh, shit, this makes literally no sense… LET’S DOUBLE DOWN!” And they TRY to make it seem like it’s a close call OR she is undecided OR that she is above it all.

Its never was; she isn’t and she’s not.  

And when Corlys says that he will declare for nobody, she says that Rhaenerya is the only one holding the realm together. Showing restraint… 

Oh, and she killed like 100 people.  Down the memory hole with you!  

To me, this represents something I am ready, willing and able to overlook, but I am also not going to pretend it didn’t happen.  Its like a bruise that will stain.  You can look past it if you can, but you cannot pretend it’s not there.  

So stop. 

ANYWAY… 

What a great season.  What an absolutely incredible correction of what we had left for dead under the Bells.  This was 10 episodes of rebuilding good will with the fans and trying to reintroduce us to this land and these people.  The acting was as great as anything in GoT; each episode had incredible import; the fissure started as a small crack and has since grown into a massive chasm that will swallow this realm and we all buy it.  

These are great characters involved in a fantastic conflict and one that is being handled with care, understanding, craftmanship and intelligence.  We are lucky to have it.

Oh, and Paddy should get the Emmy.  

Awesome season, 9 out of 10; just terrific.  Loved it and will watch again.  
 

Edited October 24, 2022 by Rockroi

[Steelborn]

28 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Can we take a moment to talk about how good Storm's End and Shipbreaker Bay looked?

Good God...Condal and Sapochnik have really, really captured the World of Ice and Fire. D&D never put this much effort in.

Casterly Rock and Highgarden being generic castles from medieval Spain was literally criminal. Makes me wish HotD would jut retcon both locations, if we ever get to see them on the show.

[DMC]

24 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Can we take a moment to talk about how good Storm's End and Shipbreaker Bay looked?

Absolutely.  Storm's End looked amazing.  I also liked how they went to daylight/clear skies right before Arrax and Luke's death.  I didn't have nearly as much problems with the "darkness" of my TV as I did with much of GoT, but I know others did.  That not only fit the scene - that Luke/Arrax thought they were safe - but mitigated that as well.

11 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Curious that Harrold Westerling didn't appear with Erryk. I wonder what exactly they're going to do with him next season.

I know, right?  WTF?

Anyway, great finale.  They finally found a use for the asoiaf prophecy!  Haven't been a fan of it thus far, at all, but Daemon getting all pissed off he wasn't told about it was perfect.  I also don't know what the big deal is about Daemon choking Rhaenyra.  It's perfectly within character and it doesn't mean he doesn't love her.  Just means he's a wife-beater and can't control his temper.

I'm fine with Aemond not "intentionally" killing Luke and Arrax.  As mentioned, it's still entirely his fault, and it was still incredibly stupid to do what he did.  At least in the show he actually knows it, which makes his character more interesting.

I also really liked Rhaenys' reluctance and being convinced to support Rhaenyra through her conduct.  I really don't get all this whining that "they're afraid to depict women badly."  No, it's more Rhaenyra is the main character of the show, and Rhaenys was convinced to support her not because she is a woman, but because she is demonstrably the better leader.

[BlackLightning]

Now for the things I didn't like about this episode.

Frankly, this episode should've been two episodes. We really should've spent a lot more time with Rhaenyra in her labors (for one, it should've been made clear that these labors were by far the worst out of the six) and in the Targaryen family's grief over the stillbirth of her daughter. Did they even mention that she was named Princess Visenya Targaryen? I didn't like that.

I would've had it so that this episode, the Black Queen, revolved around Dragonstone's reactions to the death of King Viserys and the stillbirth of Princess Visenya with it ending with Rhaenyra's coronation at Visenya's funeral...thus highlighting why they are called the blacks.

The one after this one should've been the one that focused on "will they, won't they" of war. With Rhaenys and Corlys finally picking a side, the war council on Dragonstone, the reception of Otto and Orwyle and the climax at Storm's End and above Shipbreaker Bay. That way that episode could've ended with first Aemond's return to King's Landing and the Red Keep's reaction to his actions and then with Dragonstone receiving news of Lucerys' death.

[Caligula_K3]

Heeeeeey! A good episode to end the season, probably the first I really enjoyed since the premiere. About time!

A few things were a little goofy, like Aemond chasing Lucerys on his giant dragon and then acting surprised when his dragon commits murder. Another birthing scene was unnecessary, and the miscarriage was extremely unnecessary in an episode in which Rhaenyra loses a son. And the lack of development for characters like Corlys throughout the season led to some of the Dragonstone scenes feeling like a whimper rather than a bang.

Other than that, it was a very good episode. Characters in conflict with themselves and each other! Developments from earlier in the season paying off! We've got ourselves a TV show now. The whole Storm's End sequence, goofiness of the accident aside, was also wonderfully shot and framed. It's the first big action sequence all season that's worked- kudos to the directing and CGI people.

I was pretty close to giving up on the show, but this episode made sure I'll stick around for the beginning of season 2. I hope this is a good sign for the future of the show: with the end of the timeskips, they can focus on developing characters and pacing the plot well. And who knows? Maybe in season 2, a character might even be allowed to crack a joke or enjoy themselves for longer than five seconds.

[zajaz]

11 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

Daemon: Starting to think he’s JUST an asshole.  

Really? Only starting?

[Colonel Green]

3 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Now for the things I didn't like about this episode.

Frankly, this episode should've been two episodes. We really should've spent a lot more time with Rhaenyra in her labors (for one, it should've been made clear that these labors were by far the worst out of the six) and in the Targaryen family's grief over the stillbirth of her daughter. Did they even mention that she was named Princess Visenya Targaryen? I didn't like that.

I would've had it so that this episode, the Black Queen, revolved around Dragonstone's reactions to the death of King Viserys and the stillbirth of Princess Visenya with it ending with Rhaenyra's coronation at Visenya's funeral...thus highlighting why they are called the blacks.

The one after this one should've been the one that focused on "will they, won't they" of war. With Rhaenys and Corlys finally picking a side, the war council on Dragonstone, the reception of Otto and Orwyle and the climax at Storm's End and above Shipbreaker Bay. That way that episode could've ended with first Aemond's return to King's Landing and the Red Keep's reaction to his actions and then with Dragonstone receiving news of Lucerys' death.

That would be absolutely glacial pacing.

[butterweedstrover]

Rhaenyra reminds me of uncle Tom or Jesus of Nazareth. 

She is so pure of heart that when her tormentors are near to destroying her she prays that god will forgive them. 

In the book she was screaming over the news of Aegon's ascension, in the show she is screaming over her child birth. She doesn't show anger but grief. She is reluctant to go to war and seriously considers giving in to these psychopaths. She does not sully the name of Alicent or anyone, reluctant to shed any blood, even against Otto. 

Her crowning is the most majestic thing ever stripped from a disney film, with the gold crown of her father a fitting contrast to that of the evil black upon Aegon's head. Oh, and that table scene. It was like an avengers unit with all the good guys (Tullys, Starks, Valeyrons, etc.) coming together against the Brackens and those god damn Lannisters. 

Oh look at how the bad guys and good guys all team up with no variation or anything, I guess we have to shut off our brains and love this shit. I guess they were going for some parallels between Alicent's reluctance and Rhaenyra's. But that is incredibly stupid because... 

Alicent has no reason to want the throne and endanger her best friend, and more specifically she is never reluctant about naming her rapist son as king, only about making a peace offering where she tells Rhaenyra "sorry, but your shit is mine, deal with it and I won't have you burned alive." Ahh, so nuanced. 

Meanwhile Rhaenyra has no reason to not take the throne and no reason to negotiate with these criminal psychopaths who literally hid the death of her father. Come to think of it, Rhaenyra is kind of like Satan. I mean they want us to love this pure, calm, and rational queen but think about it for a second. 

Her childhood best friend spends a decade trying to destroy her and she does not react. She offers olive branches to this traitorous meanie. Rhaenyra show zero passion or emotion or connection to this 'friend' by not shedding a single ounce of energy to show herself being disturbed, angered, or otherwise distraught. 

Then, this schizophrenic (Alicent) comes and tells her she will be queen and apologizes to Rhaenyra (because Alicent has no clue how to align being a dutiful wife with betraying her best friend since the entire premise of this undeveloped hatred comes from the fact that Rhaenyra was not a dutiful wife) and Rhaenyra without a second thought forgives her. 

Does she have any heart at all? She comes to learn after this Alicent has stolen her throne and feels sad then thinks to give it all up. I mean these two share zero emotions for one another if they are not even slightly affected by each others offenses. But whatever, this is what the show is. 

I don't get how people here seriously argue Rhaenyra has moral flaws in terms of the narrative (she doesn't) or how Alicent is a nuanced character reluctant to betray her best friend (she isn't, she is certifiably insane and dedicated to seeing Rhaenyra die regardless of what she says because her thoughts are unrelated to her emotions). I don't get how people say "but Aemond's" cool in defense of the Greens. 

Aemond and Aegon are psychopaths while Jacerys and Lucerys are saints who turn the other cheek. They are in no way comparable and the only time Daemon is given any moral punishment is when he goes against his own queen. There are no consequences for killed Vaemond, instead Corlys comes up to the Queens and worships the hero of this story. 

It's not a complex nuanced tale like Martin advertised. It is a black and white story of saints versus the most despicable psychopaths on earth. This episode was just a montage of noble and great characters bowing their head to Rhaenyra as epic music swells and Rhaenyra behaves with an excess of grace and dignity. She can't even bring herself to call Alicent a 'bitch' or something in private. She can't sully her name or purity, she is perfect. 

This is a shallow uninteresting framing to a duel narrative meant to be complex and multifaceted. Otto is not a multifaceted character, he is an idiot who kills a bunch of nobles without having any preexisting support that would guarantee his family won't be slaughtered. He is not a calculated player, just a low-life villain. 

The Green episode was just a series of degenerate trash like Larys, Cole, Otto, Aemond, Aegon, and Alicent acting like degenerate trash whilst snipping at each-other like rats over a piece of stolen pie whereas this episode was just heroic bull shit. 

It's garbage, and the people who keep say "NO! But Alicent is nuanced! And Aemond is cool! And Rhaenyra has flaws or Daemon proves the Blacks aren't generic heroes" need to get over themselves. This is a show that wants to frame itself as morally ambiguous but doesn't have the guts to do it leaving a paltry cast of characters with zero motivating factors disguised by great production and acting. 

It's awful, it's pathetic, and people need to stop coming up with excuses for it. 

[Rockroi]

1 minute ago, zajaz said:

Really? Only starting?

I'm ... I'm slow... 

[zajaz]

9 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

I'm ... I'm slow... 

It's... it's okay, I guess, mate. We all have our blind spots. I confess I never even thought Rhaenys was mass murderer, but... time proved me wrong.

Edited October 24, 2022 by zajaz