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[Spoilers] Episode 110 Discussion


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15 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

He chased him for a really long time, though. And he really seemed to want Luke's eye.

The way I saw is that yes, he did seem to want Luke's eye, by challenging him on the ground. Once he didn't get that (really, he should've known better than to ask for that kind of challenge in someone else's house) he decided to chase Luke and scare the hell out of him. Wanting Luke's eye and wanting him dead are different things.

Edited by Adaneth
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1 hour ago, Adaneth said:

I agree. Maybe I'm biased because I like Daemon, but this is something I didn't like in the show.

This is how I saw him in this episode though. I don't know why so many people were complaining about "ruining" him. People do not react all in the same way when bad things happen. I didn't see him as "evil". People often abuse that word.

I thought he was angry, impetuous and ill-tempered. But, above all, I thought he was grieving also. And I can totally relate with the way he does that because I'm similar in that aspect. I don't like to speak about it, I do not console and I tend to withdraw and be alone.

I don't think Daemon's character was ruined either. I felt pretty neutral toward Daemon in the book, he didn't stir up my emotions or imagination compared to other characters.

But I really dislike him on the show. Maybe I hate Daemon's stans more than anything ^^

No, I think it's because I didn't care much for Viserys in the books whereas I really love his character on the show. Having a sibling myself, I could not imagine said sibling being seriously ill and just walking away.

1 hour ago, Adaneth said:

I like the way they did it. It felt like we had 4 different characters in that scene. I like the fact that they showed that you cannot fully control a Dragon. They have their own mind, despite the bonding. And they might react the way you do not intend to when they get angry, or sense that you are angry. 

Agreed. I read on this thread somewhere that dragons were not horses, but being a horserider myself, I can think of at least 10 occasions where I almost shitted in my pants when ridding the horse. Or not even ridding actually, once I got bitten pretty badly because the horse got himself bitten by a horsefly and I just happened to be in the way at that moment.. Another time the pony I was riding didn't want to do anything that day and i got thrown off 3 times in an hour.. whereas the last time I had ridden him, it went well.

They're animals, they have senses and a will of their own. They get scared, angry or bored. It is no coincidence that horseriding is the most dangerous sport in the world (both in terms of number and gravity of injuries)

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1 hour ago, frenin said:

No, I'm saying than there's much more to the character tham him being a rapist and an asshole.

Unlie his book counterpart.

Even after being a rapist he's much more humanized than no one could realistically hoped him to be.

It makes his character worse giving him a reason for being a rapist. Because that reason is Alicent wanting him on the throne, which implicates Alicent in harming her own children reinforcing her character as a bad mother. 

So we have a fundamentally evil side with people doing fundamentally evil things (rape) because their motivations are fundamentally evil (forcing Aegon onto the throne). 

You see, he is not much more than a rapist because none of his behaviors counteract that. You are excusing his behavior because of some past trauma, similar to how people might defend Gregor by saying his was abused as a child. It doesn't however add ambiguity to his moral actions which are all bad. 

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10 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

By the way, I've said this quite a few times on Reddit already but I'm extremly doubtful they'll do Blood and Cheese as in the books.

 

It’ll be an accident or a misunderstanding…

Seriously, though, I think you’re right and it will be a pity. That was a key moment for me in terms of my feelings about the Blacks. I was all in until that moment. (I started with The Princess and the Queen, not Fire and Blood.) 

 

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18 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

They had murder Rhea because they didn't have him murder Laenor. Which, yes, he clearly did in the book.

That's not true. The book presents several options, and you may feel that Daemon is the most likely culprit, but it's very far from a "clearly" situation. Some factors that go against Daemon orchestrating Laenor's death:

  • Ser Qarl Correy had been quarreling with Laenor for some time in the middle of a public fair before he stabbed him to death. It doesn't seem a modus operandi of a hired assassin. 
  • Corlys and Rhaenys never seem to have blamed Daemon for it.
  • Rhaenyra never seems to fear for the life of his first three sons (that stand between Daemon's own sons and the throne), and she would have to if Daemon was the kind of man who could have had Laenor killed.
1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

A green dragon makes more sense, does the book even explain why the dragon is golden(is it meant to represent Sunfyre ?) ?????

Yes, it's after Sunfyre. From FIB: The king changed the color of the dragon on his banners from red to gold, to celebrate the brilliant golden scales of his dragon.

Blacks and greens are informal denominations. I don't think any side called themselves this way.

1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

I dont understand why keeping your original oath is seem as the surprising thing

The original oath was to Viserys, and in some cases, to Jaehaerys I. The debate among the Kingsguard is the same that for the rest the kingdom. To decide who is Viserys rightful successor.

What I feel that is surprising is two brothers that are heavily involved with the succession crisis do not discuss about it between them.

1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

Rodrik's sons and Daella( Aemma's mother) are brothers and sister.

Aemma would be their children's first cousin. Not aunt. Aemma would only be their aunt if she had a older brother, and as we know Daella died after the one child. 

You are confused here. Daella (Aemma's mother) was Rodrik's second wife. Therfore, Aemma was half-sister to Rodrik's sons.

Since Jeyne Arryn can only be Rodrik's granddaughter, and so is Rhaenyra, they should be first cousins (or half first-cousins)

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45 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

They had murder Rhea because they didn't have him murder Laenor. Which, yes, he clearly did in the book.

 

How does he “clearly” murder Laenor in the books? Laenor was killed in public in a fair by Ser Qarl. Again, it was Mushroom who suggested that it was Daemon who paid Qarl to kill Laenor.

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1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

But Mushroom's story's were meant to cast a negative light on Rhaenyra. They were suppose to show her as self-indulgent, sexually demanding, and vengeful. 

She IS self-indulgent and sexually "demanding" in the show.  And...there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.  Hell, there was even talk on here that her seduction of Cole was inappropriate based on the power dynamic.  You're arguing out of both sides of your mouth.  You claim she's only considered a "whore" in-universe, but here you are directly arguing the reader should view her in a negative light too for those actions.  It's pathetic and gross.

And even if Cole rejected her, how is she "vengeful?"  By...Cole fucking Harwin up and killing Joffrey?  What vengeance!  The books don't even suggest she dismissed him for her service, which would be the most meager type of "vengeance."  All it says is:

Quote

However it happened, whether the princess scorned the knight or he her, from that day forward the love that Ser Criston Cole had formerly borne for Rhaenyra Targaryen turned to loathing and disdain, and the man who had hitherto been the princess's constant companion and champion became the most bitter of her foes (371).

The books are crystal clear it was Cole that was vengeful, for whatever reason, not Rhaenyra.

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

He makes it seem that the bastards are a result of infidelity and a lack of concern for the rules. 

And in the show the bastards are..a result of infidelity and a lack of concern for the rules.  Unless you think Laenor isn't gay in the books, there's absolutely no difference.  Hell, the show makes it clear repeatedly they did try and it just wasn't something that was going to work - just as in the books.  And if you think the books didn't make it clear Laenor is gay, then you're unbelievably naive and sticking your head in the sand.

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8 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

It makes his character worse giving him a reason for being a rapist. Because that reason is Alicent wanting him on the throne, which implicates Alicent in harming her own children reinforcing her character as a bad mother. 

Alicent is a bad mother and Viserys is a bad father is just how it is,

If your children grow up to be  absolute cunts then you have fucked up somewhere along the way.

Aegon explicitly states where did they fuck up, Alicent put an enormous and unwanted pressure on his son to become King and Viserys was cold, distant and disappointed of his firstborn son while doting and publicly pissing on thousands of years of tradition by naming his daughter heir.

 

Aegon is not raised by his mother, his failures are Viserys's fault as they are Alicent's.

 

You're focusing on Alicent because you keep going on and on with this silly debate, honestly aren't you tired?, but Aegon focuses on his father just as much.

 

Quote

- In an hour you will be King

+ And my father never wanted that.

- He changed his mind.

+ No, no he didn't. The truth is that he had 20 years to name me his heir and he chose to uphold Rhaenyra's claim... Because he never liked me.

 

15 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

You see, he is not much more than a rapist because none of his behaviors counteract that. You are excusing his behavior because of some past trauma, similar to how people might defend Gregor by saying his was abused as a child. It doesn't however add ambiguity to his moral actions which are all bad. 

Never did i say. Humanizing someone doesn't imply excusing their behaviour. It's a stupid reasoning.

Aegon is given a lot of depth, which i like. That doesn't mean he's not an asshole, that doesn't mean he's not a rapist, that doesn't mean he's not a pest.

Me knowing how Tywin grew up ashamed of his father and how he nearly ruined their house doesn't add any ambiguity to the Tysha.

 

 

9 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

Since Jeyne Arryn can only be Rodrik's granddaughter, and so is Rhaenyra, they should be first cousins (or half first-cousins)

They are not following the books to the letter.

This seemed clear when in the first episode, Boremund was presented as Rhaenys's cousin.

 

10 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

What I feel that is surprising is two brothers that are heavily involved with the succession crisis do not discuss about it between them.

Tbf, given that they are destined to kill each other and they knew that passions were high... Why discuss it?

If Erryk discussed it with his brother before leaving, he'd find himself in the black cells soon enough. Arryk would either kill him or rat him out, either way Erryk isn't leaving King's Landing if his brother knows about his plans.

 

 

24 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

So we have a fundamentally evil side with people doing fundamentally evil things (rape) because their motivations are fundamentally evil (forcing Aegon onto the throne). 

So... just like in the books?

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With the first full season finished, they should have started a year/six months before Viserys' death, and given the kids a full season to develop and grow on the audience, rather than trying to depict so much backstory. Important background info could've been revealed over time when useful. Still enjoy it, but the aged up kids and other players needed more time.

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1 minute ago, Bael's Bastard said:

With the first full season finished, they should have started a year/six months before Viserys' death, and given the kids a full season to develop and grow on the audience

You'd have to make up a lot of material not at all in the books to fill up 8 or so episodes only a year before Viserys' death.

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11 hours ago, Ingelheim said:

What's your take on Aemond not wanting to kill Luke and losing control of Vhagar?

To me it's the most significant change they've made to the book story, even more than Alicent's.

I think it gives Aemond depth but also deprives him of agency. He basically starts the DoD by accident.

I like it though, show Aemond didn't seem half as mad as his book version.

I actually liked how the dragons went into business for themselves (whether based on their own attitudes or underlying attitudes of their riders), and how illusory the notion of complete control over them became when it was dragon being turned against dragon rather than just against human enemies.

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53 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

By the way, I've said this quite a few times on Reddit already but I'm extremly doubtful they'll do Blood and Cheese as in the books.

 

They didn't shy away from Rhaenyra's gruesome still birth except for not making the baby a mutated creature. I doubt they'll shy away from a child getting his head cut off. Though they may not show the sword parting the head, just heavily imply it.

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2 hours ago, sifth said:

So are they trying to white wash Aemond, by having it be his dragons fault for killing Luke?

Personally I think they are trying to balance the scales and give attenuated reasons for hating the Hightower party.
 

Kinslaying, in universe is one of the ultimate sins besides turncloaking. More so to be honest as it’s punished by their Gods. To outright put Aemond with purpose to the killing of the young Velaryon would be painting it way too black when Rhaenys refused an ep earlier and Daemon and Rhaenyra did the same with Leanor (I’m going to say a distance relation as his mom is just cousins with Daemon and Vyseris) but still.

Also everyone heard Luke maturely stick to his mother’s wishes as to not fight regardless of provocation. It would be extremely difficult to say Aemond is not a caricature villain if he did kill with purpose his nephew.

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52 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

There is no such problem, and people like yourself need to stop sticking their heads in the sand. 

Rhaenyra is pure because she is not even touched with emotional vice. Emotional vice includes feelings of Anger, Rage, Vengeance, Selfishness, and Carnal Pleasures (more on this one last). 
Rhaenyra in the book has such vices.
 


What exactly do you think having Otto fired, or sleeping with Criston Cole are ?????
 

52 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

She despises her step-mother and revels in a deal of animosity towards her.

Again, in the books, we arent told of a single instance of Rhaenerya and her Step mothing having a problem until near the start of the dance. 

Your assumption is that they simply left out those details, and you have a right to that belief, but that is your opinion, not fact. 

52 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

When on Dragonstone she does not consider peace, but war.

 

In the book, she literally says she will forgive her brothers and sisters and blames Otto and Alicent, so yes, she indeed does think of peace. 

52 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

 

 

 

 

She screams and demands for blood. Daemon is the one who calms her down, in the show she is the one with the ethereal calm calling it "Daemon's war" and reasoning with the men to take a leveled approach. 

in the book Its Daemon, Lord Celtigar and Rhaenys  who mentions using the dragons, and Rhaenyra says no "war at what cost,  to what end? My sons would be the ones riding those dragons mind you, and im not strong enough to fly yet... so it will be our 5 against their 4, and one of theirs will be Vhagar. "

It is then Daemon who specifically says to find allies before they go to war. 

 

52 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

In the show she is untainted by anger towards Alicent. Despite Alicent attempting to destroy her she is forgiving always and kind always. Her perfect children are shown (repeatedly) to reject the instigations of Aemond and Aegon calling for peace at every juncture due to their mother's influence. 

I have no idea how you came to this conclusion, there is a whole fist fight in Episode 8

 

52 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Martin depicts her as jealous, as angry, as sexually demanding, as physically unappealing, and as not above violent tendencies. Her sexual escapades aren't framed as female liberation, but as carnal desires invoking a sense of self-centered indulgence on her part. 

 

Martin did none of those things. Again , thats you arguing head canon. 

52 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Rhaenyra's bastards, Vaemond, Laenor, etc. were all reframed in the show. She doesn't have Vaemond killed for speaking the truth.

Vaemond dies the exact same way in the book. 

 

52 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

 

She doesn't have Laenor killed,

She doesnt in the show either, 

 

52 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

 

and the bastards weren't a result of her infidelity but Laenor's infidelity. She is absolved of everything, and you can lie to yourself as much as you want but that is the truth. 

You are completely misusing the word infidelity.  i think you mean impotence. 

As both Rhaenyra and Laenor are guilty of infidelity, and no where in the show does Rhaenyra claim she wouldnt have slept with Harwin if she had been pregnant by Laenor(as we are specifically told they did have sex)

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21 minutes ago, DMC said:

You'd have to make up a lot of material not at all in the books to fill up 8 or so episodes only a year before Viserys' death.

IMO that would have been preferable to what felt like trying to hit a checklist of events covering 30 years, with few of them having much time to feel meaningful. The book is bare bones, so it's not like adapting ASOIAF. Pertinent background info could've been used to craft the last months of the buildup to the Dance. Aegon, Aemond, Helaena, Jace, Luke, and the kids never/barely introduced could have used considerably more time. You don't have to invent major tragedies or wars to do that, just create scenes that develop the traits you want people to associate with them. 

Edited by Bael's Bastard
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36 minutes ago, DMC said:

 

And in the show the bastards are..a result of infidelity and a lack of concern for the rules.  Unless you think Laenor isn't gay in the books, there's absolutely no difference.  Hell, the show makes it clear repeatedly they did try and it just wasn't something that was going to work - just as in the books.  And if you think the books didn't make it clear Laenor is gay, then you're unbelievably naive and sticking your head in the sand.

to be clear, because there is a weird debate  in the fandom on this, gay men have sex with women all the time. Rhaenyra simply didnt get pregnant as a result of the sex. 

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5 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

You don't have to invent major tragedies or wars to do that.

Well, you'd definitely have to invent a lot of conflicts of some sort to keep it interesting, otherwise it almost certainly would be derided as "too slow" - a clear concern Martin echoed in his recent blog post.

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