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[Spoilers] Episode 110 Discussion


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12 hours ago, Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe said:

FUN WITH EDITING.

Rheanyra giving birth to baby. Her face contorts in pain. Bared teeth gnashing.

Edit. Quick Cut.
Dragon gnashing teeth.

Edit. 
Rheanyra continues birthing.

Edit. Quick Cut.  
Xenomorph Queen from Aliens gnashing teeth.

Edit. 
. Rheanyra continues birthing.

Edit. Quick Cut.  
Arnold Schwarzenegger’s face from Total Recall under atmospheric pressure.

Edit.  
Rheanyra continues birthing.  
Baby is delivered and held by Rheanyra.

Edit. Quick Cut.  
Kuato from Toal Recall. “Open your mind…”

 

 

Lol, here you go! Hope it is close to what you visualised. 

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1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

Her sexual escapades are very different in the book and the in the show. The show makes it clear her duty to the realm is beyond question and her sexual activity is not a betrayal of anyone except those who are irrational zealots.
 

It’s about framing. In the book her escapades lead to the death of Harwin, Laenor, Vaemond, and potentially more. You can absolve her as much as you want but that is speculation on your part, not reality.

LOL, after you read Fire & Blood you should try watching the first half of HotD.  First, no, her sexual escapades are not "very different" in the book, as has already been explained to you.  Second, her sexual activity in the books is not a "betrayal" to anyone except irrational zealots, as has already been explained to you.  Third, the show makes it clear she is shirking her duty in episodes 3 and 4.  That's why Viserys is so angry with her - and why he gives her moon tea after she has sex with Cole and lies about it.

Her sexual escapades don't "lead" to Harwin or Laenor's death anymore than they do in the show.  Laenor's death in the books is again ascribed to either Correy alone or Correy at Daemon's behest.  Neither gives two shits she had bastards.  The perpetrator of Harwin's death is unknown, but even if it was Viserys or Corlys (which I find implausible but obviously you don't), it's absurd to blame Rhaenyra for this.  If a woman cheats on her husband and then the husband (or her father, or her husband's father) kills her lover, you don't blame the woman.  Or at least I don't, because it's gross.  You do you though!

As for Vaemond's death, acting like there's a big difference between the books and the show is ludicrous.

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

No she doesn’t. She does not seek Harwin out for self-satisfaction, but because she needs children and Laenor won’t give her any. The fact that she enjoys her time with Harwin is an added bonus. 
 

And she doesn’t raise bastards in defiance of the realm, she does it because she literally has no other choice. 

First, how the hell do you know whether or not she seeks out Harwin for self-satisfaction?  The show jumps a decade after her wedding and we never see how they get together.  Second, once again you are imagining a difference from the books when there is little to none.  The books suggest Laenor and Rhaenyra tried a few times - Eustace estimates about a dozen and Mushroom concurs (kind of) - and it just didn't work out.  Which is exactly what the show depicts.

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

Here is the thing you aren’t seeming to grasp. F&B does not disclose the private reasons people have, but we can look at the sequence of events and be given an impression. You want to assume Rhaenyra lost Cole through no fault of her own, that she wouldn’t approve of Laenor’s death, but all these things are not told to us, they are in your imagination.

:lmao:You said nowhere in the books does it make it seem Cole wanted to run away with her, ignoring the fact in the books that is exactly Eustace's account.  It's your imagination that that account isn't in the books.

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

This is tiring to explain, but a friendship does not temper a rivalry, it increases it.

It's tiring to explain that Alicent's remaining feeling towards Rhaenyra due to their childhood friendship and her subsequent behavior make her an objectively more sympathetic character in the show compared to the outright villain she's depicted as in the books.

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

Just like it was the show’s decision to remove any paranoia about the bastards and have them be inconsequential to the reasons war is fought.

The bastardy of Rhaenyra's children is absolutely consequential to why the war is fought in the show.  It is the basis of the animosity between Alicent and Rhaenyra and their children in episodes 6, 7, and 8.  You should try watching it some time!

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

Your opinion is not the book. Which is your problem, you have a skewed understanding of the book based on how it services the show. 

Rhaenyra was never the saint she was in the show in the book which has so far been your only justification for why the show should do such a stupid thing.

:rofl: At least my "skewed understanding" is based on what actually happens in the books and the show, as opposed to you just completely making things up and/or lying about what is in the books and the show.

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

It looks bad because then he dies and she remarries making it seem she was never concerned about her husband or felt duty bound to him in anyway. 

So it looks bad because she immediately remarries after Laenor's death?  Ok.  That happens in the show too, and is exactly why Rhaenys thinks Daemon and Rhaenyra actually did kill Laenor.

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

Seriously DMC, that’s not an in depth reason. It’s not psychological, it’s not even a motivation. How much did Rhaenyra even put into this marriage? Your reading of the book is seriously debilitated by the desire to pick and choose what you see.  

Laenor going off to High Tide isn’t a sign Rhaenyra was a dedicated wife to him. She might have ignored him and that is all her actions suggest.

LOL, you should try actually responding to what I said.  I didn't say Laenor going off to High Tide is a sign Rhaenyra is a dedicated wife to him.  I said it demonstrates there's no evidence in the text Rhaenyra "rejects" him, which is what you claimed.  And indeed, it's clear indication Laenor was not a dedicated husband to her.

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

But seriously, it’s funny how in order to defend her characterization in the show you are unable of finding one passage from the book that would cast her in a light similar to the show so you try to create assumptions from things that never happened. 

:lmao:I have given and cited passages in the book that directly contradict your imaginary description of it, while you haven't done that once.

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

Because she was not directly involved with Laenor’s death does not change the fact she benefited from it. It does not change the fact that she seized the opportunities provided to her to strengthen her power at the expense of others. That leaves an impression. 

She benefits from Laenor's "death" in the show just as she does in the books.  And not only is she involved in it, it's her idea and she manufactures it and cruelly neglects to tell Rhaenys and Corlys, creating a rift between her and Rhaenys that very nearly leads to dire consequences until Viserys-ex-machina.

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I admit, I do hope they amp up Aegon's unworthiness in the next season. Maybe they can make him the absolute monster that Joffrey was in the public consciousness then exceed him.

It'd be interesting to see Aemond also be someone who could be a much-much better king but is ruined by his kinslaying.

Like Jaime, he's now someone who will never escape that label.

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12 hours ago, Cashless Society said:

Not that I disagree with you, but I was under the impression that @Rockroi was referring to his lack of confidence due to his inexperience in dealing with such matters which is in turn due to his age. The actor's performance gave off the feeling that, internally, the Luke had to keep reminding himself of what he should do/say and keep the promise made to his mother as, again, he's not a natural at this. This portrayal is very consistent with how "a little kid" who is really trying would approach the situation. 

Correct; I'm not saying what he was doing was wrong at all; nor that his acting was poor now that what he did was bad.

What I was saying was that the way he reacted was far more genuine and far more true-to life.  He did not pull out some crazy line or suddenly become an expert swords man or an amazing dragin rider.  He stayed inexperienced.  

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2 hours ago, DMC said:

LOL, after you read Fire & Blood you should try watching the first half of HotD.  First, no, her sexual escapades are not "very different" in the book, as has already been explained to you.  Second, her sexual activity in the books is not a "betrayal" to anyone except irrational zealots, as has already been explained to you.  
 

Rhaenyra does betray the people her escapades kill like turning Laenor into a target, and Vaemond, and Harwin. 

Even if you believe all these people would have died anyways, you can’t say the book excused Rhaenyra morally, the show does.

The show explicitly makes it clear why Vaemond died, why Harwin died, and why Laenor didn’t.

Vaemond dies because he is a power hungry misogynist. Harwin dies because Alicent decided to bring a psychopath into her inner circle. 

Laenor get’s ‘killed’ so he might live a happy life and Rhaenyra can better defend herself against the Greens. 

None of this was from the book. The book gives the appearance Vaemond died because Rhaenyra is paranoid. Harwin dies because she used him to breed heirs. And Laenor died because he was in the way. 

And in the book, her conflict with Rhaenyra was self-destructive. In the show it is completely rational and level headed making the removal of Laenor seem common sense. The fact that she spared him means she can be both smart and morally absolved.

2 hours ago, DMC said:

Third, the show makes it clear she is shirking her duty in episodes 3 and 4.  That's why Viserys is so angry with her - and why he gives her moon tea after she has sex with Cole and lies about it. 
 

I use to think that, back when I still liked the show in the first five episodes. But seeing as Rhaenyra never shirks her duty post-time skip it gives me the impression those scenes weren’t meant to imply wrongdoing on her part but to show how sexually liberated and awesome she is.

2 hours ago, DMC said:

Her sexual escapades don't "lead" to Harwin or Laenor's death anymore than they do in the show.  Laenor's death in the books is again ascribed to either Correy alone or Correy at Daemon's behest.  Neither gives two shits she had bastards.  The perpetrator of Harwin's death is unknown, but even if it was Viserys or Corlys (which I find implausible but obviously you don't), it's absurd to blame Rhaenyra for this.  If a woman cheats on her husband and then the husband (or her father, or her husband's father) kills her lover, you don't blame the woman.  Or at least I don't, because it's gross.  You do you though! 
 

They do if her lack of concern for her husband and her duty as a wife led to their deaths. She might not be morally culpable (assuming she was not involved) but she benefited from their deaths and that casts a morally ambiguous light onto her claim. 

Especially given the fact that she was never known to show any serious grief or regret over what happened but rather embraced the opportunity to gain more power.

2 hours ago, DMC said:

As for Vaemond's death, acting like there's a big difference between the books and the show is ludicrous. 
 

It’s fundamentally different. Vaemond being killed for telling the truth and being killed for calling the princess a whore in front of the king are two different things. 

The first one is on his executors. The second one is on him. Especially since the show absolves Rhaenyra of any wrongdoing.

2 hours ago, DMC said:

First, how the hell do you know whether or not she seeks out Harwin for self-satisfaction? 
 

Because I know she needed children to secure her claim. If Laenor wasn’t giving any she needed to find someone. The fact that she preferred Harwin is not the reason she sought him out in the first place. 

If she wanted sex, she could have sex. Instead she wanted children. She had sex for the primary reason of having children, not indulging in enjoyment (which might, SHOCK, constitute a moral flaw in her perfect veneer).

2 hours ago, DMC said:

The books suggest Laenor and Rhaenyra tried a few times - Eustace estimates about a dozen and Mushroom concurs (kind of) - and it just didn't work out.  Which is exactly what the show depicts. 
 

It never (like the show) put the blame completely on Laenor. Rhaenyra would have, in the show, much preferred him to be the father than Harwin, Laenor gave her no choice. 

In the book it might have meant she was not interested and didn’t care about the consequences (such that it fit with her liaison with Criston Cole). 

The show went out of its way to make Rhaenyra both the dedicated mother and wife while Laenor was out drinking because he was depressed over his lovers death.

2 hours ago, DMC said:

:lmao:You said nowhere in the books does it make it seem Cole wanted to run away with her, ignoring the fact in the books that is exactly Eustace's account.  It's your imagination that that account isn't in the books. 
 

Well, even so, Cole is still a loser in the show while he had more agency in the book (hence his moniker). He chose Alicent over Rhaenyra, and that added fuel to the rivalry. 

The show has no such rivalry and Rhaenyra does not think about Cole making her rejection of him the ONLY aspect of their relationship.

2 hours ago, DMC said:

It's tiring to explain that Alicent's remaining feeling towards Rhaenyra due to their childhood friendship and her subsequent behavior make her an objectively more sympathetic character in the show compared to the outright villain she's depicted as in the books. 
 

While this is not true, it also doesn’t change the fact that Rhaenyra’s total indifference towards her best friend trying to destroy her makes Rhaenyra not only seem immune to typical human vices, but also lacking in human mannerisms making the love she bares for her children seem artificial. 

And lol, no. Alicent doesn’t come off as more sympathetic for trying to destroy her best friend for no perceivable reason, she comes off as schizophrenic.

2 hours ago, DMC said:

The bastardy of Rhaenyra's children is absolutely consequential to why the war is fought in the show.  It is the basis of the animosity between Alicent and Rhaenyra and their children in episodes 6, 7, and 8.  You should try watching it some time! 
 

No it’s not. The bastards are not framed as a threat to her claim or the safety of Alicent’s children. They are framed as a reason for Alicent to be jealous of Rhaenyra. 

Alicent’s children have been predisposed to hate Rhaenyra since birth, especially as Alicent keeps reminding them (that their lives would be endanger). The name Strong is just a weapon used for them to battle each other, not the reason Alicent’s children are given for hating them.

2 hours ago, DMC said:

:rofl: At least my "skewed understanding" is based on what actually happens in the books and the show, as opposed to you just completely making things up and/or lying about what is in the books and the show.

So it looks bad because she immediately remarries after Laenor's death?  Ok.  That happens in the show too, and is exactly why Rhaenys thinks Daemon and Rhaenyra actually did kill Laenor. 
 

She marries Daemon to go along with  the plan to set Laenor free. The Greens are ramping their attacks and she needs a few legitimate children. 

It’s quite rational to do this while in the book it seems opportunistic, especially since Laenor actually dies. 

But here is the thing, none of those things from the show (her rational level-headed concern about the Greens or Laenor’s survival) are part of her character in the book.

2 hours ago, DMC said:

LOL, you should try actually responding to what I said.  I didn't say Laenor going off to High Tide is a sign Rhaenyra is a dedicated wife to him.  I said it demonstrates there's no evidence in the text Rhaenyra "rejects" him, which is what you claimed.  And indeed, it's clear indication Laenor was not a dedicated husband to her. 
 

One in the same, if she doesn’t reject him she is dedicated, if she does she is not.It might have been a mutual separation, but there is no hint this was all on Laenor in the book. 
 

2 hours ago, DMC said:

:lmao:I have given and cited passages in the book that directly contradict your imaginary description of it, while you haven't done that once. 
 

And none that show her to be forgiving, dutiful, emotionally unresponsive to hate, ridiculously calm, and mild mannered as she was in the show. 
 

Because none of that was corroborated.

2 hours ago, DMC said:

She benefits from Laenor's "death" in the show just as she does in the books.  And not only is she involved in it, it's her idea and she manufactures it and cruelly neglects to tell Rhaenys and Corlys, creating a rift between her and Rhaenys that very nearly leads to dire consequences until Viserys-ex-machina.

About Rhaenys and Corlys, Rhaenyra suffers no consequences for faking their son’s death. They bend the knee without question because she is so awesome and perfect. If that was a serious deed it would be treated with narrative consequences, instead they both kneel to the true queen.

Edited by butterweedstrover
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Not for nothing, GRRM on how he feels about Rhae and Alicent's portrayal: 

Quote

Very briefly, however, I think Ryan has handled  the “jumps” very well, and I love love love both the younger Alicent and Rhaenyra and the adult versions, and the actresses who play them. 

https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2022/10/11/random-musings/

Which seems high praise. So I don't hold credence to the whole "they are changing the characters toooo much" complaints. He seems fine with it. With praise he didn't really seem to heap onto the latter seasons of GoT. 

I also don't quite understand why the above poster repeatedly ignores Eustace's version of what happened with Cole. The writers could have gone either way. 

Edited by LordBolton'sLeech
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1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Judging by Rhaenyra's last shot in the episode, she's totally out for revenge. I'm even beginning to wonder whether she'll be the driving force behind Blood & Cheese on the show.

I don't think so, I think that will still be mainly Daemon.. Probably also why they kept cutting some scenes (with his daughters, his grieving on the beach) and showed him almost strangling Rhaenyra to remind the audience that, despite his badassness, he's still a violent and vengeful person.

But I think Rhaenyra will have a stern reaction to Blood & Cheese, she won't burst in outrage, she won't be  pleased with it, but accept it as war casualty.

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38 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Judging by Rhaenyra's last shot in the episode, she's totally out for revenge. I'm even beginning to wonder whether she'll be the driving force behind Blood & Cheese on the show.

I guess we'll get the declaration she supposedly gave in the book after the stillbirth now after she learned about Luke's death: 'He was my son, and they killed him, and they will answer for it!'

Rhaenyra blaming the Greens for Visenya's death always felt kind of weird, just as his apparent desire for vengeance there which then resulted in her doing more or less nothing for an entire year.

After Luke's such declarations do make sense.

Blood and Cheese is likely going to be motivated by Mysaria's desire for revenge than Rhaenyra's. She might demand that Daemon kill Aemond ... but Mysaria may have little incentive doing that. She will want to go after Alicent, wanting to hurt her, assuming she figured out/knows that Alicent was the one who arranged the burning of her manse.

Thinking more about Rhaena and the riderless dragons:

Which dragon do you think Rhaena will claim or try to claim?

That she will make an attempt was hinted at, I think, by the camera focusing on her when Daemon mentioned the riderless dragons.

If they make no change to the dragonseeds as such - and I don't think they can cut the Two Betrayers, nor will they want to cut Nettles or Addam of Hull - then the best dragon for her would be the Grey Ghost.

In the book Jace has to promise Jeyne Arryn dragonriders to protect the Vale. Later he sends Joffrey and Tyraxes there, but Joff is clearly too young in the book to be of much or any use as a dragonrider fighter, even if his dragon were pretty big at the time. Rhaena accompanies them in the book with her dragon eggs, and only returns at the end of the war with Morning.

You really get the feeling there that George actually intended to include a Vale subplot there, originally, and then nothing came of that and he just went with 'Oh, hey, the Vale is still there, so let's have their army come out of the there at the end of the war to help put Aegon III on the throne'.

In the show we could have Jeyne declaring for Rhaenyra, but her cousin Arnold and the Royces could declare for the Greens. We could have Arnold either being imprisoned already and escaping, or have his crucial usurpation attempt take place during the Dance when he uses his alliance with the Greens as a pretext to try to oust Jeyne.

I also see little chance that the murder of Rhea Royce has no consequences. If Jeyne supports Daemon's new wife, the Royces should declare for Aegon II.

Thus we could have some civil war action in the Vale, with Rhaena and her dragon helping Jeyne to restore order. This could also explain why the Vale doesn't send much support to Rhaenyra during most of the Dance - not to help her take KL nor later when she has to deal with the Westermen army and the Hightower army.

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14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I guess we'll get the declaration she supposedly gave in the book after the stillbirth now after she learned about Luke's death: 'He was my son, and they killed him, and they will answer for it!'

From the way it was portrayed, I got the impression that Rhaenyra is already at the "Jace's death hardened her, burning away her fears, leaving only her anger and hatred." stage after the death of Luke. it's like they've fast-tracked things a bit.

Edited by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy
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21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That she will make an attempt was hinted at, I think, by the camera focusing on her when Daemon mentioned the riderless dragons.

Agreed, I noticed that too.  As for which one she'll try to claim, I mean, based on the show and ignoring what happens in the books, you'd think it'd Vermithor (or whichever one Daemon was singing to, did they actually confirm that was Vermithor?).  The next most logical one would be Seasmoke.  I think including Rhaena in the sowing should complicate who gets whom compared to the books.  If she does claim a dragon, you'd think she'd get right of first refusal (or attempt, I guess) until she claims one.

17 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

From the way it was portrayed, I got the impression that Rhaenyra is already at the "Jace's death hardened her, burning away her fears, leaving only her anger and hatred." stage after the death of Luke.

Yeah.  As the main character, she's definitely not gonna be dickering around for a year.

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2 hours ago, slant said:

Lol, here you go! Hope it is close to what you visualised. 

Omg!Omg!OMG! 
I. 
Love.  
You.

You are an artist sir! You have made my dreams come to life! Thank you!

Could you do the farting stuff? I really want to see Otto try to talk to Rhaenyra on the bride at dragonstone. Only to have to constantly restart each sentence as Syrax keeps farting. I imagine all the accompanying men gagging and coughing. “It’s in me mouth!”. Retching over the bridge. Otto turns to look at Syrax. Syrax innocently stares up at the sky. Pretending like she doesn’t know what she’s doing. 

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1 hour ago, LordBolton'sLeech said:

Not for nothing, GRRM on how he feels about Rhae and Alicent's portrayal: 

https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2022/10/11/random-musings/

Which seems high praise. So I don't hold credence to the whole "they are changing the characters toooo much" complaints. He seems fine with it. With praise he didn't really seem to heap onto the latter seasons of GoT. 

I also don't quite understand why the above poster repeatedly ignores Eustace's version of what happened with Cole. The writers could have gone either way. 

It doesn’t matter what he says if the changes deliberately make the characters less morally complex and thereby turning the story into a good vs. bad. 
 

Also, I think Olivia has a bunch of people fooled into thinking her character is consistent. 
 

As for Cole, yeah I concede that was in the book, but it doesn’t change the fact that the book going from him being another screw in the Alicent/Rhaenyra rivalry to him being a loser without agency reinforces their grand plan: 

Blacks good, Greens bad.

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4 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

It's notable that the song Daemon sings sounded like a lullaby, and previously Rhaenyra's unborn child died on Dragonstone. There are theories which speculate that Tagaryens had practised blood magic to bind the souls of their unborn children to dragons. Maybe this scene showed us Daemon's deeper knowledge of dragon bonds, and he was in some way paying his own form of respects to his unborn child.

I think Visenya's soul --> Vermithor and such a close blood bond and recent soul swap allows Daemon to skinchange it.

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14 hours ago, Cashless Society said:

I can definitely see Aegon throwing his brother a huge party, calling him a badass etc. I'd be interested to see if this provides a genuine bonding moment between the two before the events at Rook's Rest make Aemond revert back to wanting to be king.

Not that I disagree with you, but I was under the impression that @Rockroi was referring to his lack of confidence due to his inexperience in dealing with such matters which is in turn due to his age. The actor's performance gave off the feeling that, internally, the Luke had to keep reminding himself of what he should do/say and keep the promise made to his mother as, again, he's not a natural at this. This portrayal is very consistent with how "a little kid" who is really trying would approach the situation. 

 

Hmm.  I don't think Luke behaved like a little kid during his brief time at Storm's End.  Luke was extremely inexperienced as an envoy or diplomat.  He was 14 years old and had never, as far as we know, met Lord Borros or his predecessor; and had no cards to play for the alliance that Rhaenyra needed, since he could not offer a betrothal.  We don't know if Rhaenyra coached Luke on anything other than his status as an envoy or the importance of delivering her letter. 

However, it's important to note that Luke's behavior was that of a young man, not a little boy in some respects - when faced with Aemond's adversarial and taunting/threatening presence, and Lord Borros' rebuffs, Luke did not panic and he remained courteous towards his host and kept his own dignity.  He reminded Lord Borros that he was his mother's messenger as a a means of self-protection; he knew that Aemond wanted to harm him, and that his status as messenger/envoy would protect him while he was in Borros' hall.  I think Luke was a natural at being a diplomat.  If he was behaving like a little kid who is really trying to please his mother and the adults; Luke would have shown frustration by breaking into tears or screaming/having a tantrum.  

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