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[Spoilers] Episode 110 Discussion


Ran
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30 minutes ago, Elaena Targaryen said:

Oh I absolutely loved the second half and wanted more. More Harwin, all the kids (both ages) and Velaryons. I would have liked to see reactions to Rhaenyra marring Daemon. I think spending more time here could highlight how it was such a bad idea for Rhaenyra to stay away from King's Landing. She should have been there to take a part in running the kingdom, being there for her ailing father, and trying to form bonds with her siblings. 

Even so, I'm grateful we get Rhaenyra and Alicents' childhood friendship since I don't see many female friendships portrayed, let alone one being the focus. It's even better imo when they feel disappointed and betrayed through the years to the point of estrangement yet they are still shown to love each other. Unforgivable lines may have been crossed and still they truly don't wish the other harm. That's realistic.

Agreed! Alicent and Rhaenyra's relationship is truly the centerpiece of the show and I'm glad it is because it's been great to follow it through it all. As you say, their love for each other that still lingers is so realistic and special. I've really, really enjoyed it.

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7 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

I did read it, but I feel like we are losing the important fact: 

Saint Rhaenyra is an invention of the show. Book Rhaenyra had jealousy, anger, and hate towards Alicent plus a predisposition for paranoia with the deaths of the people who posed a danger to her ascension (Harwin, Laenor, Vaemond). 

The show takes significant pains to absolve her of any culpability (direct or indirect) while keeping her emotions static and without any human failings (despite her best friend stealing her throne and dedicating twenty years to slander her name). 

I think you are seeing what you want to see with the show tbh. 
 

im not going to go round and round with you though like others. I don’t have the patience for it 

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10 minutes ago, DMC said:

Yikes.  I didn't know this was bible camp.

This is kind of a garbage response per usual. It takes your modern sensibilities, implants it as judgment onto me, then skirts away. 

It’s quite reasonable to think turning KL into an open brothel would bring about disfavor among the lords and prove to be disastrous for a reigning monarch to engage with (especially when childbirth is such an important factor). 
 

 

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Also okay so Rhaenyra as far as we know has had sex with four men. Daemon doesn't even seem half as lecherous as Aegon. His vices seem to fall more into violence. What would make anyone think they'd turn KL into a brothel?? Anymore than any other monarch or lord who has had sex with more than one person. It's because Rhaenyra's a woman than any straying from the "virginal, pure path".

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11 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

I did read it, but I feel like we are losing the important fact: 

Saint Rhaenyra is an invention of the show. Book Rhaenyra had jealousy, anger, and hate towards Alicent plus a predisposition for paranoia with the deaths of the people who posed a danger to her ascension (Harwin, Laenor, Vaemond). 

The show takes significant pains to absolve her of any culpability (direct or indirect) while keeping her emotions static and without any human failings (despite her best friend stealing her throne and dedicating twenty years to slander her name). 

Yes, she has no failings except all the failings shown.

Which I'd mention but you just dismiss it.

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1 minute ago, butterweedstrover said:

It takes your modern sensibilities, implants it as judgment onto me, then skirts away. 

Because we are talking about modern sensibilities.  The discussion wasn't about it making sense that Cole would be misogynistic and homophobic.  That's not surprising.  LordBoltonLeech's post was point out Cole's comments don't make the greens look better or Rhaenyra a bad queen to the reader.  And then you said it did.  You can't have it both ways.  Either you agree Cole's comments are misogynistic and thus should have no bearing on how the reader views Rhaenyra's potential rule, or you don't.

5 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

It’s quite reasonable to think turning KL into an open brothel would bring about disfavor among the lords and prove to be disastrous for a reigning monarch to engage with (especially when childbirth is such an important factor). 

It's also absurd and basic slanderous propaganda in-universe to think Rhaenyra would turn King's Landing "into a brothel" - any more than it already is.

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4 minutes ago, DMC said:

Cole's Green Council comments conclude with the homophobic (and nonsensical) remark that even the boys wouldn't be safe because "we know what Laenor was."

Unless homophobia is uncommon in Westeros his saying that wouldn’t be much of statement as to his character.

3 minutes ago, LordBolton'sLeech said:

It's pretty telling that you would read "she gained some weight in her pregnancy" as "well clearly she was physically unappealing and became super jelly of Alicent." Like wtf? The books didn't mention anything about physical attraction, just weight gain? And Harwin was still into her, I don't think she was lacking in dudes going for her?? 
 

It talks about her gaining weight in comparison to Alicent who remains in form adding a discrepancy between one another and then suggests a growing jealousy from one to the other. 
 

Assuming Cole left her, she settled for Harwin. Either way the book has a shared deep seated rivalry between them fueled by hatred (that doesn’t exist in the show) so there are a number of things that caused this. The fact that the book decided to highlight Rhaenyra’s beauty compared to Alicent’s is a narrative decision to reinforce the conflict. 

3 minutes ago, LordBolton'sLeech said:

I don't think that is at all something we're supposed to take at face value. That she was jealous of Alicent because she was hotter or whatever. Human beings are a lot more complicated than that. Women don't just attack eachother because the other is hotter, there is always something else going on. 

Yeah, there are multiple reasons. But in the end Rhaenyra hated Alicent, something she doesn’t in the show despite being given ample reason to.

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For the record, I think Rhaenyra has shown flaws as a potential monarch. (Less so than Aegon imo but still). I just refuse to believe the Greens are acting as a result of it. 

I think they've made Alicent's reasoning a lot more sympathetic. And book Cole was either if I went with either Mushroom or Eustace, a dude who turned on a teenager he was sworn to because she hit on him after being groomed by her uncle and he rejected her or he's a total incel. The show actually made him a lot more sympathetic because of the position Rhaenyra put him in and the conflict he had considering his oaths. Honestly, the show went with the best option regarding his character. I can understand wanting him to have more agency but I think his falling out with Rhaenyra is well done. 

But other than this, I don't think the reasons for opposing Rhaenyra are because the Greens think she'd be a bad queen. It's a smokescreen. 

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1 minute ago, DMC said:

Because we are talking about modern sensibilities.  The discussion wasn't about it making sense that Cole would be misogynistic and homophobic.  That's not surprising.  LordBoltonLeech's post was point out Cole's comments don't make the greens look better or Rhaenyra a bad queen to the reader.  And then you said it did.  You can't have it both ways.  Either you agree Cole's comments are misogynistic and thus should have no bearing on how the reader views Rhaenyra's potential rule, or you don't. 
 

That is not what I came away with from the discussion. I thought it meant that Cole wouldn’t think that an actual reason for why she would be a bad queen to which I responded it made sense even if it was tinged in hypocrisy. 
 

But since you asked, yeah it would. The Queen running her court like a brothel and engaging in sexual activity would go against all concepts of chastity, religion, and tradition the institutions of power hold in Westeros and damage the credibility of the crown.

1 minute ago, DMC said:

It's also absurd and basic slanderous propaganda in-universe to think Rhaenyra would turn King's Landing "into a brothel" - any more than it already is.

If it’s slander then fine. It just takes Cole to think it’s true for it to function as criticism of Rhaenyra as queen.

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11 minutes ago, LordBolton'sLeech said:

Also okay so Rhaenyra as far as we know has had sex with four men. Daemon doesn't even seem half as lecherous as Aegon. His vices seem to fall more into violence. What would make anyone think they'd turn KL into a brothel?? Anymore than any other monarch or lord who has had sex with more than one person. It's because Rhaenyra's a woman than any straying from the "virginal, pure path".

I think also, because in the book, Daemon frequented whore houses quite a lot.

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6 minutes ago, LordBolton'sLeech said:

For the record, I think Rhaenyra has shown flaws as a potential monarch. (Less so than Aegon imo but still). I just refuse to believe the Greens are acting as a result of it. 

Outside of the first five episodes, where has she shown any potential flaws? From what we know the bastards weren’t her fault, and neither was Vaemond’s death. And faking Laenor’s death didn’t carry any lasting consequences so it was the right move.

Edited by butterweedstrover
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1 minute ago, butterweedstrover said:

That is not what I came away with from the discussion. I thought it meant that Cole wouldn’t think that an actual reason for why she would be a bad queen to which I responded it made sense even if it was tinged in hypocrisy. 
 

No I very much was saying it wouldn't help any perception of the Greens. That yes Cole -would- say that. It would have lead to a billion more "OMG COLE IS THE WORST" responses. Honestly I wouldn't have minded it but they helped him by not including it. 

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3 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

The Queen running her court like a brothel and engaging in sexual activity would go against all concepts of chastity, religion, and tradition the institutions of power hold in Westeros and damage the credibility of the crown.

Is there any evidence in the books Dragonstone "turned into a brothel" during the years she was its Princess -- and Daemon as her consort?  Because unless there is, the comment is just baseless slander and propaganda in-universe.  Being sexually promiscuous does not mean you're going to reenact Caligula in the Red Keep.  It's a ludicrous notion even in Westeros.

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1 minute ago, LordBolton'sLeech said:

No I very much was saying it wouldn't help any perception of the Greens. That yes Cole -would- say that. It would have lead to a billion more "OMG COLE IS THE WORST" responses. Honestly I wouldn't have minded it but they helped him by not including it. 

I think it did help because in the show that was obviously not her character. But if she was planning to run KL like that, it would be objectively bad. Even if viewers didn’t think so he would still have a point.

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1 minute ago, butterweedstrover said:

Outside of the first five episodes, where has she shown any potential flaws? From what we know the bastards weren’t her fault, and neither was Vaemond’s death. And faking Laenor’s death didn’t carry any lasting consequences so it was the right move.

A lack of foresight regarding her Velaryon children to the point of needing to gaslight everyone to protect them and herself. An inability to chastise Luke about the eye incident leading him to nonchalantly smirk at Aemond during the feast rather than show true contrition. Not explaining to Rhaenys/Corlys earlier on that she did not have their son killed. Underestimating the antagonism of her enemies and being legitimately shocked by Rhaenys' announcement she'd been usurped. Risking her heirs on a mission despite the possibility their enemies might be around. All of these could be considered failings of a monarch. I don't agree these were all bad ideas but it can be argued at length. 

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Just now, DMC said:

Is there any evidence in the books Dragonstone "turned into a brothel" during the years she was its Princess -- and Daemon as her consort?  Because unless there is, the comment is just baseless slander and propaganda in-universe.  Being sexually promiscuous does not mean you're going to reenact Caligula in the Red Keep.  It's a ludicrous notion even in Westeros.

No, but if Cole thought so it would function as adequate criticism of Rhaenyra’s potential as queen worthy of discussion. 

Meaning, Cole saying that isn’t him taking issue with a non-problem to sound sexist, but identifying a real problem he might think will come true.

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2 minutes ago, LordBolton'sLeech said:

A lack of foresight regarding her Velaryon children to the point of needing to gaslight everyone to protect them and herself. An inability to chastise Luke about the eye incident leading him to nonchalantly smirk at Aemond during the feast rather than show true contrition. Not explaining to Rhaenys/Corlys earlier on that she did not have their son killed. Underestimating the antagonism of her enemies and being legitimately shocked by Rhaenys' announcement she'd been usurped. Risking her heirs on a mission despite the possibility their enemies might be around. All of these could be considered failings of a monarch. I don't agree these were all bad ideas but it can be argued at length. 

I agree with maybe half of these, but the other half I think the show wants us to think was a good decision. 
 

However my main issue with her isn’t her flaws as a potential monarch, but her lack of moral failings, even basic ones like anger or envy.

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Just now, LordBolton'sLeech said:

I don't know how to break it to you. But a man saying "she's a slutty slut and will make the whole city her brothel" is PROBABLY a sign he's pissed about something personal. 

 

2 minutes ago, DMC said:

LOL!  Right, it has nothing to do with his demonstrable animosity towards her for over a decade.

It doesn’t matter why he thinks it, only that it gives us an understanding of why he would not want her to be queen outside of personal animosity (even if he is exaggerating).

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