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[Spoilers] Episode 110 Discussion


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29 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Yes, she has no failings except all the failings shown.

Which I'd mention but you just dismiss it.

Feel free to state them again. 
 

FYI: I mean moral failings, none of which she has shown. She loves her children, is endlessly forgiving, calm, diplomatic, and incapable of anger. 
 

Edit: I don’t know why you think I’d dismiss it. I try to to focus on the arguments while being respectful in any way possible. 

If I fall short of that or come off as unduly dismissive please let me know and I promise to amend my behavior.

Edited by butterweedstrover
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1 minute ago, butterweedstrover said:

Feel free to state them again. 
 

FYI: I mean moral failings, none of which she has shown. She loves her children, is endlessly forgiving, calm, diplomatic, and incapable of anger.

You explicitly said we could not include the first 5 episodes. Which leaves us with 4 episodes she was actually in after. Okay so we also can't include failings as a monarch. 

She was part of a conspiracy to kill a random dude and take Laenor's place so he could run away? Is that not a moral failing? It's possible to interpret her requesting Aemond's thorough questioning of her children's legitimacy as torture. She straight up ignores her half siblings. While it would have been wise and honestly good of her to bond with them. 

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By the way (for anyone curious about it), these are the lyrics of the song that Daemon sang to Vermithor: 

Quote

Valyrian: Drakari pykiros Tīkummo jemiros Yn lantyz bartossa Saelot vāedis

Hen ñuhā elēnī: Perzyssy vestretis Se gēlȳn irūdaks Ānogrose

Perzyro udrȳssi Ezīmptos laehossi Hārossa letagon Aōt vāedan

Hae mērot gierūli: Se hāros bartossi Prūmȳsa sōvīli Gevī dāerī

 

English: Fire breather, winged leader, but two heads to a third sing

From my voice: the fires have spoken and the price has been paid with blood magic

With words of flame, with clear eyes, to bind the three to you I sing

As one we gather, and with three heads we shall fly as we were destined, beautifully, freely

Some interesting bits there

Edited by Ingelheim
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19 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

It doesn’t matter why he thinks it, only that it gives us an understanding of why he would not want her to be queen outside of personal animosity (even if he is exaggerating).

....Hohkay.  You're clearly going to ignore the obvious indications in the text he is saying this because of his personal animosity, so whatever.

Anyway, you continue to skirt the original issue.  Do you, as a reader, agree that Rhaenyra being sexually promiscuous would make her a bad ruler?

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22 minutes ago, LordBolton'sLeech said:

You explicitly said we could not include the first 5 episodes. Which leaves us with 4 episodes she was actually in after. Okay so we also can't include failings as a monarch.  
 

Well the character has changed so much, but incidentally I find the ‘flaws’ in her character during the first five to be unintentional or framed in a way to garner support. 

For example, her talking back to Lady Redwyne has no consequences and is sold to us like a boss move. It’s about how the show frames her behaviors and her shortfalls, like her sexual escapade not a sign of self-indulgence but sexual liberation against the patriarchy (as juxtaposed with Alicent/Viserys sex scene). 

But more to the point, her administrative failings do not take into account intention. Ned also made mistakes but his intentions were always good and he intended to rule well. 

Similarly, Rhaenyra since the time skip only wants to strengthen her claim and be good, kind, and forgiving even when it’s out right abnormal for a human to not show vice.

22 minutes ago, LordBolton'sLeech said:

She was part of a conspiracy to kill a random dude and take Laenor's place so he could run away? Is that not a moral failing?  
 

Not really because the show doesn’t frame it as bad. The scene is framed as her both strengthening her claim by removing Laenor so she can remarry as well as catering to his feelings as a gay man. 

The nameless guard had no narrative function, he only works as a plot element, and his death is framed as something fundamentally good.

22 minutes ago, LordBolton'sLeech said:

It's possible to interpret her requesting Aemond's thorough questioning of her children's legitimacy as torture.
 

Well, in that scene Alicent was on edge and freaking out over any suggestions. For Rhaenyra (the person at the center of her despise) to suggest that and for it to not garner a significant reaction suggests it was not as strong a recommendation as that. 

Viserys goes on to literally question him sharply without rejecting any notion of torture. If the show wanted to depict Rhaenyra advocating torture, there were many ways to do that. As usual we don’t see any of that.

22 minutes ago, LordBolton'sLeech said:

She straight up ignores her half siblings. While it would have been wise and honestly good of her to bond with them. 

I don’t know what you’re referencing. 
Edit: oh wait I get you. 
 

Well, Alicent set her children against Rhaenyra so this isn’t a problem on her end. Also, you have to consider the age gap and how that deprived them of a serious relationship for years, after which it was too late. 
 

Rhaenyra did offer Helaena a match with Jace which Alicent outright rejected.

Edited by butterweedstrover
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9 minutes ago, DMC said:

....Hohkay.  You're clearly going to ignore the obvious indications in the text he is saying this because of his personal animosity, so whatever. 
 

Those two things aren’t mutually exclusive.

9 minutes ago, DMC said:

Anyway, you continue to skirt the original issue.  Do you, as a reader, agree that Rhaenyra being sexually promiscuous would make her a bad ruler?

Yes, just like Aegon IV. 
 

Actually worse because the realm wouldn’t accept the crown being led by a woman engaged in open sexual relations around court. I guess she has dragons so she can burn the people who complain, but that wouldn’t be a sign of good leadership.

Edited by butterweedstrover
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I think it would be interesting if Aegon, in a desperation to hold onto the people’s love, actually gave them everything they asked for (ala Baelor the Blessed), and then when Rhaenyra comes in and starts ignoring them, it provides a good reason for them to see her as “Maegor with teats.” It would be an unexpected twist that is nevertheless foreshadowed by Aegon’s awe at being cheered by the crowd.

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17 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Yes, just like Aegon IV. 

LOL!  Yes, because Rhaenyra mothering three bastards with one man while having a gay husband is totally the same as Aegon's nine "official" mistresses - one of which he executed - his cousin, and his own claim of having slept with 900 women.  This says it all - you do you!

19 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Actually worse because the realm wouldn’t accept the crown being led by a woman engaged in open sexual relations around court.

Except Rhaenyra never engaged in "open sexual relations" the way Aegon did.

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2 minutes ago, DMC said:

LOL!  Yes, because Rhaenyra mothering three bastards with one man while having a gay husband is totally the same as Aegon's nine "official" mistresses - one of which he executed - his cousin, and his own claim of having slept with 900 women.  This says it all - you do you! 
 

But that is not promiscuous behavior. As the show tells us, she had no choice but to go to Harwin, very different.

2 minutes ago, DMC said:

Except Rhaenyra never engaged in "open sexual relations" the way Aegon did.

In the show? Yeah, you’re right? In the book? We have no way of knowing.

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1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

Feel free to state them again. 
 

FYI: I mean moral failings, none of which she has shown. She loves her children, is endlessly forgiving, calm, diplomatic, and incapable of anger.

Sure:

* Rhaenyra refuses to marry of her own accord and makes sport of her many suitors, which shows her to be petulant and dickish when most women don't have the option to choose their own marriage partners.

* Rhaenyra does nothing to prevent the murder/death of a lord in her presence, ignoring the bloodshed as beneath her.

* Rhaenyra seduced a Kingsguard, which MANY people pointed out the ethical issues of including the power differentiation and the danger it put Ser Cole in.

* Rhaenyra constantly lies about her indiscretions and to the face of her supposed friends.

* Rhaenyra's adultery with Harwin puts the succession in doubt and helps cause a Civil War as it gives ammunition to Otto Hightower's attempts to undermine her. Her actions don't end with her desires but the consequences for the entirety of the realm, regardless of her personal feelings.

* Rhaenyra lies constantly about the parentage of her children, with the threats to kill anyone who points out the obvious.

* Rhaenyra's actions of faking Laenor's death not only resulted in the death of an innocent guard but for actual people that matter, tortured and deceived his parents that loved him.

* Rhaenyra tries to steal the seat of Driftmark from House Velaryon to help sell her lie, which results in Vhaemond's death.

For all the claims of saint rhaenyra, she has been portrayed as fairly bratty, self-interested, and entitled. So much so that throughout the first five episodes, many people used the term "brat" and "selfish" to describe her. She's matured in her thirties but still makes decisions that results in massive suffering.

I like Rhaenyra.

I'm Team Black all the way.

But she also has a lot of flaws and her actions have bad consequences for people who don't deserve it (like Corys and Rhaenys).

Edited by C.T. Phipps
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1 hour ago, Ingelheim said:

Bu the way (for anyone curious about it), these are the lyrics of the song that Daemon sang to Vermithor: 

Some interesting bits there

Thank you very much. That's pretty huge to me.

He says he's singing to the dragon to bind it so I've no doubt he's doing with song what Euron's Dragonbinder does too when it is blown.

And Visenya life/soul is the blood magic payment and her soul having gone into Vermithor is one of the heads. Daemon himself is the third head, the singer, and the supposed rider though it seems he's able to ready it for someone else to slip into the role.

The other head maybe Vermithor itself? Or in this instance no-one in particular but typically it'd be one of the parents sacrificed too (Drogo/Rhaego, 2 kings to wake the dragon....), unnecessary this time perhaps for reasons unknown, possibly relating to having already been ridden.

It feels like Daemon understands a lot about how the magic works and can manipulate things whereas others just happen into it through precedent.

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40 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

But that is not promiscuous behavior. As the show tells us, she had no choice but to go to Harwin, very different.

In the show? Yeah, you’re right? In the book? We have no way of knowing.

I was clearly talking about the books, not the show.  In the books we have her engaging in sexual activity with at most five men - Daemon, Cole, Harwin, Laenor, and Mushroom according to Mushroom.  Exactly half of Aegon's acknowledged mistresses counting Daena.  In what way is book Rhaenyra's sexual promiscuity in any way comparable to Aegon's self-professes and open behavior?

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13 minutes ago, DMC said:

I was clearly talking about the books, not the show.  In the books we have her engaging in sexual activity with at most five men - Daemon, Cole, Harwin, Laenor, and Mushroom according to Mushroom.  Exactly half of Aegon's acknowledged mistresses counting Daena.  In what way is book Rhaenyra's sexual promiscuity in any way comparable to Aegon's self-professes and open behavior?

Look at that wild sex club she's created. More than one man? Watch out KL.

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Rhaenyra's sin here is that she would presume to rule the realm without subjecting herself to any of the sacrifices that come with it due to the people's beliefs, laws, customs and expectations. The shit they care about. That's yasss queen girl boss stuff in these times to these audiences, but in world this stuff matters and can very possibly mean war and a million dead.

 

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Looking back on the season, I feel the same way about it that I have since the premiere: good, but not great. I considered if I was being too harsh, but the truth is that when I look back, I can't think of all that many scenes that stood out to me. I liked when all the characters converged for the royal hunt and the wedding. I liked both the elder and younger Strongs (although I preferred Larys to before the time jump, when he was subtle and not a smirking supervillain). I liked how they adapted Helaena and the changes they made to Aemond and Otto. But almost nothing from the second half of the season was memorable to me, great performances aside. Yes, the scene with Viserys coming to Rhaenyra's aid in EP8 was well-done, but it was also narratively frustrating, since it relied once again on Rhaenyra being rescued by someone else instead of doing something for herself. I'm going to need to sit on this for a while.

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11 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Keep lying to yourself. The book literally calls their apology after the Aemond incident fake. 

Yes, i would assume all apologies after your child lost an eye , would be fake , and that incident took place 14 years into  Alicents marriage

11 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

No, their rivalry is all over the book. In the scene they walk into the room with their classic Black and Green dresses. Their hatred is everywhere, it's literally outright stated time and time again, even in the freaking Martin approved illustration.

No, that is where we are told the names "Blacks" and "Greens" come from. No where in the book are they said to hate each other there.  Its clear thats a retroactive title.

11 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Yeah, killing the Queen and the Hand guarantees war, but whatever. 

She never says that,  she only says they are to blame. Aegon II however in the very next sentence calls for Rhaenyra's head along with her childrens and Daemon's. 

 

11 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Being skeptical of battle strategy isn't be skeptical of war. 

You have a right to that opinion.  But its just that. an opinion. 

11 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Rhaenyra always forgives Alicent and is always holding out an olive branch. She never shows any anger or hatred despite this best friend ostensibly trying to destroy her. Pull your head out of the sand and look at reality. 

 

That wasnt the point there. You claimed Rhaenyra's children dont fight and are perfect. they clearly do. 

11 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Lol, he literally said she grew to becomes unattractive post-child birth. She literally screams on news of Alicent betrayal wanting her dead, and as Vaemond killed for speaking the truth. 

No, he said she gained weight, whether you find a  150 to 200 pound women attractive (based on illustrations of her) is entirely up to the reader. 

11 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Lol no. In the book she has a hand in his death and he calls her children bastards off-page. 

In the show he directly calls her a whore in front of the entire court and Daemon kills him without consulting Rhaenyra. Oh and all the audiences cheered because we were suppose to celebrate this act whereas in the book it showed how Rhaenyra's lies were catching up to her.

You are simply arguing that it was Rhaenyra who made the call instead of Daemon, got it. 

11 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

 

 

 

11 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

No, Laenor can ejaculate. He just won't with his wife so she has no choice but to look elsewhere. 

The show says they had sex, you can assume ejaculation, there is no reason not to.

As I and others have pointed out when this was discussed weeks ago, gay men can achieve orgasms with women, its not that hard(speaking from personal experience)

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I feel like I’ve scrolled through multiple threads here at this point and I see a whole lot of people declaring that Alicent is characterized inconsistently, but nobody acknowledging the repeated statements by all four of the actors playing Alicent and and Rhaenyra, both showrunners, and multiple producers and writers to the effect that romantic chemistry underlines the friendship they had as kids, for Alicent in particular? Idk, having watched the show through that lens from the beginning (it was called out in interviews from the get), I can’t honestly say that I’ve felt Alicent’s behaviour has ever felt out of place in that context — on the contrary, it is unexpectedly some of the most accurate, specific, and deliberate writing and acting (especially from Olivia Cooke) of a deeply- closeted reactionary conservative I’ve seen in a very long time, and that it succeeds in doing so empathetically instead of cartoonishly is quite to the credit of everyone involved.

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17 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

You're overthinking this: her saying Aegon mostly ignores her when he's drunk doesn't mean they never had sex- pretty sure Aegon would notice and care his wife is getting pregnant without they ever sleeping together 

I’m sure he’d be relieved having Aemond take over since he was very vocal of not finding her to his tastes back in Ep 7.

And it’s, “Mostly ignores… unless he’s drunk.” Which I took to mean that’s when he tries, because he’s too plowed to care who she is, but alcohol has rendered him unable.

Every line they’ve given her thus far has a future meaning, including her first lines about the 60-ringed bug with eyes but cannot see, and two-pairs of legs on each ring, except the last ring with no legs. Perhaps it’s Aegon himself. The last ring being after his injuries with the fight with Baela since Sunfyre never flies again. I can’t quiet work out what the 60 (59 with two pairs of legs?) mean. Some measure of time maybe? The number of his bastards (two pairs of legs = the sexual encounters making each one?

Having said that, it might be closer to when she said it, as everything else she’s said come soon after her statements.

Someone pointed out she’s the infant earlier in the season who won’t stop crying when Alicent is holder her, likely because she doesn’t like being touched. I can see Helaena being the one person Aemond is completely kind and gentle with.

And even if I am overthinking it, so what? It’s fun. :D

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