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[Spoilers] Episode 110 Discussion


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18 hours ago, slant said:

Melf's Minute Meteors are better

This is what I hear when people complain of the darkness in HotD

I remember my older brothers friend coming over and playing a cassette of this like 25-30? years ago.

Edited by Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe
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7 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

The shit they care about. That's yasss queen girl boss stuff in these times to these audiences, but in world this stuff matters and can very possibly mean war and a million dead.

None of that is an impediment for the Lords tho.

I can only remember the Targaryen-Hightowers making a fuss about her being a "whore" and the Targayen-Hightower and Vaemond Velaryon complaining/caring about her children being bastards.

And dare I say that conforming to the norms and customs of her age what leads to her demise?

Had she done what Daemon asked and destroyed the Baratheons and the Lannisters and giving their seats to Ulf and Hugh, they would likely wouldn't have betrayed her.

Had she ruled in favour of the Rosby giirl when it came to succesion, she wouldn't have been expelled later and Cregan and the Riverlords would have arrived in time for her.

 

 

 

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On 10/24/2022 at 9:59 AM, Raksha 2014 said:

 

I actually thought that Lucerys acted like more than "a little boy" when he went out on the mission that would claim his life:  despite his lack of self-confidence in his destiny as the future Lord of the Tides or his own fighting skills, Lucerys conducted himself with considerable dignity and confidence as a queen's envoy to Lord Borros (a hostile host) under the smirking eye of Aemond.  Lucerys did not panic when Aemond tried to coerce him to cut out his own eye; but reiterated his own status as an envoy rather than a warrior; though he drew his sword in answer to Aemond's threat, not in panic but in answer, despite Aemond's greater age and height.  When Lucerys reached his dragon, he did his best to calm Arrax, despite their having to leave suddenly in the terrible weather.  Not every 14-year-old boy would behave so well.  And even when Aemond, on Vhagar, set upon Lucerys, attacking and harassing him and shouting threats, Lucerys did not panic; he tried to hide in crevasses (a fairly successful strategy). 

Lucerys didn't act like a little boy; he acted like the brave and resilient prince he was growing up to be.  What he didn't act like was Superman; since he didn't have any special advantage; like the largest dragon in Westeros or a fantastic talent for fighting.

And I agree that Paddy Considine should get an Emmy!

Great analysis of Lucerys' actions, completely agree. He showed courage and presence of mind in a perilous situation where he was out of his depth, and conducted himself admirably. His death in the books hit me hard, harder still in the show even though I knew it was coming, and that's a testament to the actor who did a fantastic job with the handful of scenes he was given. 

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31 minutes ago, Mark Antony said:

Kinda annoyed that the one soundtrack I really wanted (The Targaryen family dinner song that plays when Jace/Helaena dance in episode 8) appears to not be on the OST.

Also, the show has quite a few versions of the 'sealed in fire and blood' song, both with a chorus and on its own (I always somehow thought of this as Rhaenyra's theme as it mostly played when she was around) but the OST doesn't seem to have these. I especially liked the soft version that plays in 'Driftmark' when Rhaenyra watches Daemon, and then Viserys goes to speak with him. Wish they'd included it. :(

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Even though I found the change to Luke’s death rather goofy, I think HOTD did a much better job (so far) of making Aemond a grey character than Daemon. I think the main difference is that Aemond shows genuine loyalty to his family—even his hated older brother—whereas Daemon really only cares about himself. The only person he seemed capable of loving was Viserys, and even that was a very twisted love.

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22 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

That would have been interesting, but has the Blackfyre Rebellion ever been part of discussions for a spinoff? I think GRRM has stuff to reveal about the Blackfyres in the main novels so maybe he doesn't wish HBO to make a show about them.

No it hasn't. But name a better story for a live-action sequel.

The problem of Dunk and Egg is that it's heavily lacking material (or any kind of ending and purpose), the Conquest is linear and not interesting on screen, the Maegor v the Faith and Aenys' sons is a short story, just as the war of the Ninepenny Kings, and the Tragedy of Sumerhall is just tragic.

I guess a spinoff with 3-4 seasons at best could work with including (starting out with) the Tragedy of Summerhall, Jaehaerys' reign, Aerys' reign and Robert's Rebellion, but do people really want to see something with such a great interconnection with GoT?

The best options for another spinoff are Nymeria's conquest of Dorne and the Blackfyre Rebellion/s. The options are actually very few. And even if GOT had been good, the number would rise only to 3 (with RR).

And I'm not sure if George can block HBO from using any of his material, if they want to. And that's still not meg saying a Blackfyre spinoff should happen. I just tought about how Daena the Defiant most probably presented her grandfather, Daemon, as this great hero of the Dance, and in case HBO plans on doing a sequel to HOTD/prequel to GOT about the Blackfyres, this would've been a great way to lay the groundworks to it.

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5 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Daemon really only cares about himself

And Rhaenyra, and Laena, and Laenor, and his children by Laena, and Rhaenyra's children, and his children by Rhaenyra, and that's a bunch of people right there. 

Aemond, maybe cares about Helaena (I think he wants her because Aegon has her) but wants the throne for himself whereas Daemon fights to protect the claim of others. 

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13 hours ago, DMC said:

I was clearly talking about the books, not the show.  In the books we have her engaging in sexual activity with at most five men - Daemon, Cole, Harwin, Laenor, and Mushroom according to Mushroom.  Exactly half of Aegon's acknowledged mistresses counting Daena.  In what way is book Rhaenyra's sexual promiscuity in any way comparable to Aegon's self-professes and open behavior?

1. We don't know how her behavior might consist upon the throne as she never got there (or at least never in a time absent of war).  

2. Aegon being worse does not make Rhaenyra a better Queen 

3. (This one is important): Aegon has influences about him that might control his behavior. He is more of a boy while Rhaenyra is a full grown woman. Daemon meanwhile would promotes Rhaenyra's more deviant activities rather than curb them 

4. Cole might be blind to Aegon's faults but much more aware of those in Rhaenyra (someone who he once had relationships with). 

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11 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

Yes, i would assume all apologies after your child lost an eye , would be fake , and that incident took place 14 years into  Alicents marriage

No, that is where we are told the names "Blacks" and "Greens" come from. No where in the book are they said to hate each other there.  Its clear thats a retroactive title.

She never says that,  she only says they are to blame. Aegon II however in the very next sentence calls for Rhaenyra's head along with her childrens and Daemon's. 

That wasnt the point there. You claimed Rhaenyra's children dont fight and are perfect. they clearly do. 

No, he said she gained weight, whether you find a  150 to 200 pound women attractive (based on illustrations of her) is entirely up to the reader.  

Why are you making me do this? Sigh.  

"Her Grace and her stepdaughter had proved shortlived, for both Rhaenyra and Alicent aspired to be the first lady of the realm…and though the queen had given the king not one but two male heirs, Viserys had done nothing to change the order of succession"  

"Still, questions persisted, not the least from Queen Alicent herself" (about Rhaenyra being heir vs. her own children (hint: Alicent not wanting Rhaenyra on the throne = rivalry) 

"a group of powerful lords friendly to Queen Alicent and supportive of the rights of her sons. Against them was pitted the “party of the princess.”" (ahh, so even without 'titles' the factions existed). 

"In 111 AC, a great tourney was held at King’s Landing on the fifth anniversary of the king’s marriage to Queen Alicent. At the opening feast, the queen wore a green gown, whilst the princess dressed dramatically in Targaryen red and black. Note was taken, and thereafter it became the custom to refer to “greens” and “blacks” when talking of the queen’s party and the party of the princess, respectively." (I don't know what thereafter means but it doesn't seem like it took that long for the names to take hold) 

Here, in case you still don't believe me, her is an illustration from the book: 

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/de/e8/3d/dee83d8a891de312dc28e4de48009b36.png 

Doesn't look like they are getting along, almost as if they are enemies. 

"“My half-brothers would be more to his taste,” she told the king. (The princess always took care to refer to Queen Alicent’s sons as halfbrothers, never as brothers.)" 

"It was said that Queen Alicent did not share his displeasure, however; soon after, she asked that Ser Criston Cole be made her personal protector. The coolness between the king’s wife and the king’s daughter was plain for all to see; even envoys from the Free Cities made note of it in letters sent back to Pentos, Braavos, and Old Volantis." (oh wow, news of their rivalry made it all the way over to Essos, but not to you apparently). 

"And the rivalry between the greens and blacks grew deeper, finally reaching the point where the queen and the princess could scarce suffer each other’s presence."  

"Childbirth exacted a toll on the princess; the weight that Rhaenyra gained during her pregnancies never entirely left her, and by the time her youngest boy was born, she had grown stout and thick of waist, the beauty of her girlhood a fading memory" (ah, so she wasn't beautiful anymore. If you think that is sexist take it up with Martin (it isn't BTW). 

"According to Mushroom, this only served to deepen her resentment of her stepmother, Queen Alicent, who remained slender and graceful at half again her age" (I mean since you believe what mushroom said about Aegon, you have to believe what he says about his own queen. Also, despite people taking issue with this, it is one of the least controversial statements Mushroom has throughout the entire book, especially since we know there is already animosity between them).   

"The enmity between Queen Alicent and Princess Rhaenyra was passed on to their sons"  

I could go on but you've already wasted enough of my time. 

 

 

11 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

You are simply arguing that it was Rhaenyra who made the call instead of Daemon, got it.   LOL: NO, THIS IS NOT IT

11 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

 

The show says they had sex, you can assume ejaculation, there is no reason not to.

As I and others have pointed out when this was discussed weeks ago, gay men can achieve orgasms with women, its not that hard(speaking from personal experience)

Which is why Laenor's failure isn't on him being gay, its on him not trying hard enough and going out to drink because he was depressed his boyfriend was killed (which incidentally didn't involve any fighting between him and Cole for some reason).  

10 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

sure it does, homophobia being common doesnt make it ok. 

If everyone is homophobic, it doesn't say much about your character if you too are homophobic. It says stuff about your society, but not your personal psychology. 

Edited by butterweedstrover
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38 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

1. We don't know how her behavior might consist upon the throne as she never got there (or at least never in a time absent of war).  

2. Aegon being worse does not make Rhaenyra a better Queen 

3. (This one is important): Aegon has influences about him that might control his behavior. He is more of a boy while Rhaenyra is a full grown woman. Daemon meanwhile would promotes Rhaenyra's more deviant activities rather than curb them 

4. Cole might be blind to Aegon's faults but much more aware of those in Rhaenyra (someone who he once had relationships with). 

None of these are arguments for why Rhaenyra's sexual activity/promiscuity would make her a bad ruler (and most of them aren't even really arguments).  Since you've repeatedly evaded the question, I'll take this to mean you have no basis for such an argument, but will persist in claiming as much when it suits you.  Like most people who shame women for their sexuality.

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1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think the main difference is that Aemond shows genuine loyalty to his family—even his hated older brother—whereas Daemon really only cares about himself. The only person he seemed capable of loving was Viserys, and even that was a very twisted love.

I think he loves Rhaenyra as well, he's just also a very violent person that's obviously not above domestic abuse when he loses his temper.  Indeed, his anger at Rhaenyra throughout the finale is explicitly because he thinks she's acting like Viserys.  The show does a good job showing his affection for her even when he it doesn't serve his interest - e.g. their first meeting in the throne room scene and their confrontation on Dragonstone in episode 2.  I consider this making up for the accounts in the books of him doting on her when she was a child, always bringing her an exotic gift when returning for travels.

And for Daemon, Viserys and Rhaenyra basically are what he considers his family.  He clearly doesn't consider the Hightower children as his nephews and nieces.  As for his children, we haven't really gotten much on how he feels either way.  I think we can assume he's not a very good/attentive father, but that doesn't mean he doesn't love them.

Edited by DMC
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15 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think it would be interesting if Aegon, in a desperation to hold onto the people’s love, actually gave them everything they asked for (ala Baelor the Blessed), and then when Rhaenyra comes in and starts ignoring them, it provides a good reason for them to see her as “Maegor with teats.” It would be an unexpected twist that is nevertheless foreshadowed by Aegon’s awe at being cheered by the crowd.

He already cannot do that, since they have established that the Blacks will blockade KL. The people will be in economic trouble immediately.

I think Aegon's plot will be that he got drunk on power from the moment of his coronation. He will take it a sign that the people love him and that means he is a good king by default and can do nothing wrong - or if he does it doesn't matter because he is a beloved king.

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1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

Why are you making me do this? Sigh.  

"Her Grace and her stepdaughter had proved shortlived, for both Rhaenyra and Alicent aspired to be the first lady of the realm…and though the queen had given the king not one but two male heirs, Viserys had done nothing to change the order of succession"  

"Still, questions persisted, not the least from Queen Alicent herself" (about Rhaenyra being heir vs. her own children (hint: Alicent not wanting Rhaenyra on the throne = rivalry) 

"a group of powerful lords friendly to Queen Alicent and supportive of the rights of her sons. Against them was pitted the “party of the princess.”" (ahh, so even without 'titles' the factions existed). 

"In 111 AC, a great tourney was held at King’s Landing on the fifth anniversary of the king’s marriage to Queen Alicent. At the opening feast, the queen wore a green gown, whilst the princess dressed dramatically in Targaryen red and black. Note was taken, and thereafter it became the custom to refer to “greens” and “blacks” when talking of the queen’s party and the party of the princess, respectively." (I don't know what thereafter means but it doesn't seem like it took that long for the names to take hold) 

Here, in case you still don't believe me, her is an illustration from the book: 

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/de/e8/3d/dee83d8a891de312dc28e4de48009b36.png 

Doesn't look like they are getting along, almost as if they are enemies. 

Again, the color of dresses at a tourney/feast dont dictate not liking each other, its the origins of the name. You are conflating 2 things. 

All your quotes, and even your explanation include the children being born and used as pawns,  

 

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

"“My half-brothers would be more to his taste,” she told the king. (The princess always took care to refer to Queen Alicent’s sons as halfbrothers, never as brothers.)" 

 

 

the antagonist of the main series is routinely referred to as "Bastard", Ned Stark's bastard," Bastard of Winterfell". You believe her calling them half siblings matter, I believe its literally a throw away line of a private conversation no one could have possible heard in the context of a story where calling someone a half sibling is normal and therefore, meant by the author as a confirmation of their own bias(author being the Maester)

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

even envoys from the Free Cities made note of it in letters sent back to Pentos, Braavos, and Old Volantis." (oh wow, news of their rivalry made it all the way over to Essos, but not to you apparently). 

You mean letters that no Westerosi  maester could have possibly been reading ??????

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

 

"Childbirth exacted a toll on the princess; the weight that Rhaenyra gained during her pregnancies never entirely left her, and by the time her youngest boy was born, she had grown stout and thick of waist, the beauty of her girlhood a fading memory" (ah, so she wasn't beautiful anymore. If you think that is sexist take it up with Martin (it isn't BTW). 

The character would be sexist, not GRRM. 

But again, your splitting hairs.

weight =/= beauty, was my point. We never disagreed on the line, but rather what it means. My argument is that the character equates weight to beauty , where as you think the line is separate and that she is some simply got ugly as she had children.  

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

"According to Mushroom, this only served to deepen her resentment of her stepmother, Queen Alicent, who remained slender and graceful at half again her age" (I mean since you believe what mushroom said about Aegon, you have to believe what he says about his own queen. Also, despite people taking issue with this, it is one of the least controversial statements Mushroom has throughout the entire book, especially since we know there is already animosity between them).   

"The enmity between Queen Alicent and Princess Rhaenyra was passed on to their sons"  

I could go on but you've already wasted enough of my time. 

 

Even your unreliable narrator of Mushroom mentions weight as the standard for beauty and not looks. 

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

 

Which is why Laenor's failure isn't on him being gay, its on him not trying hard enough and going out to drink because he was depressed his boyfriend was killed (which incidentally didn't involve any fighting between him and Cole for some reason).  

No, your argument was Rhaenyra's "infidelity" and how it was caused by Laenor. 

it wasnt. she would have slept around even if she had 8 kids and all of them looked like Laenor. He could have had sex with her every night and she would have slept around.  In short, Laenor's sexuality isnt the problem, Rhaenyra simply wants someone else. 

The show specifically leads us to believe that her and Harwin had been together since the wedding. 

 

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

If everyone is homophobic, it doesn't say much about your character if you too are homophobic. It says stuff about your society, but not your personal psychology. 

No, this is like saying in a society that allows slavery, the abolitionist isnt the better person than the slave own. You can indeed still contrast people in a society that overwhelmingly supports something. 

So in short, the majority can be deemed bad and it can then be placed on your moral character. 

Edited by dsjj251
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1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Even though I found the change to Luke’s death rather goofy, I think HOTD did a much better job (so far) of making Aemond a grey character than Daemon. I think the main difference is that Aemond shows genuine loyalty to his family—even his hated older brother—whereas Daemon really only cares about himself. The only person he seemed capable of loving was Viserys, and even that was a very twisted love.

Daemon certainly also loves Rhaenyra, although perhaps to a lesser degree and in a different manner than Viserys. He is just pissed at what he views as weakness, which he thinks she inherited from her father. He thought he had married a warrior queen, a woman more like himself ... and then she acts as if she is about to accept the Green coup.

I don't think Aemond is particularly loyal - he is clearly not loyal to his elder brother Aegon who is now de iure the head of House Targaryen and the leader of the Green faction.

He is courteous to Alicent, but it seems to me the reason he wanted to go with Criston wasn't to find Aegon, etc. but to perhaps ensure he isn't found ... as is later revealed.

I also don't buy that he loves Helaena romantically - she is his sister and he loves her as a brother and would marry her if asked to - but that's because he knows that the brother who marries Helaena would be the one they set up to be king.

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A solid episode with a great ending. The end of episode 9 still leaves a sour taste in the mouth especially since episode 10 didn't address it at all, although to be fair it didn't feature King's Landing.

As far as I'm concerned Rhaenys is a war criminal and should be portrayed as such.

I love the look on Aemon's face when he realises what he's done. I think it was a good choice on the part of the show to portray it as unintended on his part.

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21 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Judging by Rhaenyra's last shot in the episode, she's totally out for revenge.

According to this recent very interesting interview with Condal, the final line of the episode's script is: “Rhaenyra looks up and war is in her eyes.”

It's a pitty that the scripts aren't released ater the episode.

21 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I'm even beginning to wonder whether she'll be the driving force behind Blood & Cheese on the show.

One option that they may consider is not to reveal who is behind it. Let the accusations fly around, and avoid revealing who (Rhaenyra, Daemon, or Mysaria) is behind it.

But to be honest, I'm convinced they'll have Daemon do it.

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

If everyone is homophobic, it doesn't say much about your character if you too are homophobic. It says stuff about your society, but not your personal psychology. 

It's a good thing not everyone is homophobic in this world, then.

Not Grand Maester Mellos, who nonchalantly claims “I do not like the taste of fish, but when fish is served, I eat it.” Nor many of the POVs we've seen in ASOIAF where we see that while queer characters are seen as an oddity, they are respected and admired in their own right (Renly, Loras, Oberyn,...). And no one questions their ability to rule because of their sexual preferences.

It seems clear to me that Criston Cole is far more homophobic than the average Westerosi citizen.

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