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[Spoilers] Episode 110 Discussion


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13 minutes ago, Lord of Brewtown said:

But, the earlier episodes showed his need for affirmation from Viserys, and how he doesn't really react well when his counsel isn't taken when he's in/around the politics, and starts to act out.   I think that's kind of happening here.  He's being drawn back into the high stakes political game, he's more a man of action vs words, and I think he's surprised when Rhaenyra is not 100% on the same page as him.  Thus he's reverting back to acting/lashing out emotionally.    

 

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On 10/26/2022 at 1:12 PM, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

So Ryan Condal confirmed that Daeron will appear in future seasons. What's the best way to introduce him without it feeling weird?

I think that ship has sailed for non-readers - it's going to feel weird.  Now, I think many will be able to get over it quickly and move on; but, it will still feel weird.   

I really don't understand why they didn't at least have a few references to him:  Rhaenyra or Viserys could have said something like it's too bad Daeron isn't also here at the family dinner in episode 8, or casual reference could have been made to him at Laena's funeral, etc.   They definitely should have made some comment about sending a message to Lord Hightower and 'your brother' in a conversation of some kind in episode 9.   

But, that's a think I think GOT wasn't very good at either.  Example:  I think they had an opportunity to really build up the mystery Beric Dondarrion in season 2 - could have had more questioning in earlier episodes or made battle references to being raided by him.   Could have really had viewers wondering who this guy was, and then bam, had him appear in season 3.  

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23 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

They could have easily opted for not having Daemon kill neither Rhea nor Laenor. There shouldn't be a murder quota to reach.

That said, I think it would have been much better to have him kill Laenor than Rhea. There would be a clearer motivation, and it would have spared us from both the contrieved fake murder plot and the future complications surrounding Seasmoke.

Regarding Rhea:  I wonder if leaving more doubt for audience might have been better (maybe not show her/have some other scene where another character mentions that Daemon is not where he has been hanging out; but, still include the accusation scene at the wedding).  One of the criticisms I'm seeing from some non-reader reviewers is that everything is pretty clear cut in season 1 of HotD - they don't feel like there's as much guessing about personality's/what might happen/who's good/bad, etc.  

Regarding Laenor - I liked the choice they made.  I think having Daemon kill him would have been a mistake given the closer family relationship in a way, and history of working together in the Stepstones/being saved him and Seasmoke. Granted, it opens up the whole how can someone else ride Seasmoke while he's still alive question.   However, it opens up some other possibilities as well (which may have been discussed on these boards; but, if so , I missed that portion of the thread).   Do they maybe bring Laenor back (either reveal himself or incognito) and have hime ride Seasmoke in a battle of Tumbleton?  Do they just have him die in the Stepstones or Free Cities (he is a bit more of a warrior than in the books)?   Does he maybe make a triumphant small appearance in the last season (or earlier) by playing a part in the rescue of young Viserys (maybe by rescuing from the Triarchy and later sending a message to Alyn)??  

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I dunno, the linear numbers on Wikipedia aren’t that great. . . but who really wants to hear about that, right? The show is a success, which is all that matters.

I just wish there were some writers/content creators who were making (fair) criticisms of the show. I like HOTD, but it isn’t perfect, and I feel like I’m in an alternate plane, seeing so much unadulterated praise for it.

 

If the story is all about Rhaenyra and Alicent, then I suppose we’ll be getting new material for Alicent next season. All I know is that it’ll probably be very weird.

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13 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I just wish there were some writers/content creators who were making (fair) criticisms of the show. I like HOTD, but it isn’t perfect, and I feel like I’m in an alternate plane, seeing so much unadulterated praise for it.

 

If the story is all about Rhaenyra and Alicent, then I suppose we’ll be getting new material for Alicent next season. All I know is that it’ll probably be very weird.

I get what you mean about the huge praise for it. Granted, I'm not in a lot of online spaces but at least between me and my friends, we did find the season uneven, mostly as a consequence of its structure. But there's definitely things here at fault, namely Mysaria who I think it'd be fair to say comes across as a caricature, for example. Or how certain characters are underdeveloped, like the Velaryons or Helaena. Not to mention some of the technical aspects of the show, like the pacing or lighting. The only article I remember seeing was one in The Guardian about the terrible lighting in episode 7. But again, I'm not really on top of online discussion/articles.

I definitely think that it's not as good as season 1 of GOT. It improved on the things GOT needed improving (sexual violence, sexposition, etc.), but otherwise I thought it wasn't as good. Still fine, of course, but not when compared to that season 1.

And to go back to the technical aspects, I genuinely didn't think this show was extraordinary on that front. To start with, the lighting obscured some things. I also honestly felt like there was something weird about the sets and locations: it felt very stage-like sometimes, like they don't exist behind those doors and walls.* When I think back to GOT, however, that was not the impression I got (at least in the first seasons): even though the budget was so much smaller and there were a lot more characters and a lot more locations, the world felt open and wide like it had a bigger budget than this show. Hotd is very expensive, with fewer locations and characters, and it felt more "low budget" and closed off than GOT. I'm guessing CGI takes a huge slice of the budget. Maybe it's just the small number of locations. But in retrospect, it makes what they managed to do in season 1 of GOT an incredible achievement.

But I do believe there's only room for improvement from now on, since there won't be any more drastic time skips in a very short amount of time.

I am really looking forward to what they're going to do with Alicent, and her relationship with Rhaenyra.

*I wonder if the pandemic enforced some restrictions on the production, as well.

** I just remembered that they built the Red Keep as a multi-storey (2 or 3 floors?) building inside a soundstage with actual rooms and staircases. While that is impressive, it also explains why the Keep on this show feels so claustrophobic and like a small set of rooms to me. I swear, it didn't feel like this on GOT from what I recall.

(Sorry about the huge posts haha I got carried away)

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1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I just wish there were some writers/content creators who were making (fair) criticisms of the show. I like HOTD, but it isn’t perfect, and I feel like I’m in an alternate plane, seeing so much unadulterated praise for it.

 

Have you checked out/listened to 'The Watch' on The Ringer?  Andy Greenwald has pretty much panned the whole season.   Granted, he can be a bit of a TV 'snob'.   From a less high brow perspective, Clay Travis on Outkick thoughts can I think be summed up as the show is fun/he enjoys the dragons/violence/etc; but, there isn't as much character development or unpredictability as GoT - he feels like everything is telegraphed he knows what's coming.  

It's also obvious that both, as non-readers, have not picked up on several things.  

That's 2 non-readers (I try to focus on reviews from that perspective where I can).  From the reviews I've read, its seems like most readers like the series.  For non-readers, it seems like more casual viewers enjoy watching for the fun aspect (the action/violence/intrigue);, and the more 'high brow' the non-reader/critic (TV/film backgrounds), the more they are picking apart HotD (they are getting attached to any characters/really caring about them).  

 

 

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28 minutes ago, Lord of Brewtown said:

Andy Greenwald has pretty much panned the whole season.   Granted, he can be a bit of a TV 'snob'.

This is putting it just about as nicely as possible.  I remember trying to get through his reviews back in the Grantland days, it was like reading an essay from an undergrad trying to impress me through exhaustive use of a thesaurus.

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25 minutes ago, Lord of Brewtown said:

Have you checked out/listened to 'The Watch' on The Ringer?  Andy Greenwald has pretty much panned the whole season.   Granted, he can be a bit of a TV 'snob'.   From a less high brow perspective, Clay Travis on Outkick thoughts can I think be summed up as the show is fun/he enjoys the dragons/violence/etc; but, there isn't as much character development or unpredictability as GoT - he feels like everything is telegraphed he knows what's coming.  

It's also obvious that both, as non-readers, have not picked up on several things.  

That's 2 non-readers (I try to focus on reviews from that perspective where I can).  From the reviews I've read, its seems like most readers like the series.  For non-readers, it seems like more casual viewers enjoy watching for the fun aspect (the action/violence/intrigue);, and the more 'high brow' the non-reader/critic (TV/film backgrounds), the more they are picking apart HotD (they are getting attached to any characters/really caring about them).  

 

 

Thanks, I’ll have to check them out. That’s the biggest complaint I’ve seen, that a lot of people still don’t feel a connection to the characters. It’s a problem for me too. Surprisingly, I feel a little more invested in Alicent and Rhaenyra’s children than the the older generations.

I know GRRM wants four seasons, but I hope they do three. I think it will make for a much tighter narrative, especially since, as I mentioned before, things tend to get weird when the writers on this show start writing their own material lol.

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2 hours ago, Lord of Brewtown said:

Regarding Laenor - I liked the choice they made.  I think having Daemon kill him would have been a mistake given the closer family relationship in a way, and history of working together in the Stepstones/being saved him and Seasmoke. Granted, it opens up the whole how can someone else ride Seasmoke while he's still alive question.   However, it opens up some other possibilities as well (which may have been discussed on these boards; but, if so , I missed that portion of the thread).   Do they maybe bring Laenor back (either reveal himself or incognito) and have hime ride Seasmoke in a battle of Tumbleton?  Do they just have him die in the Stepstones or Free Cities (he is a bit more of a warrior than in the books)?   Does he maybe make a triumphant small appearance in the last season (or earlier) by playing a part in the rescue of young Viserys (maybe by rescuing from the Triarchy and later sending a message to Alyn)??  

If they don't bring Laenor back in place of (or as) Addam, then I think the way to go would be to bring Qarl Correy back, telling everybody about Laenor's death in Essos, and also having him be the guy who brings forth Addam and Alyn of Hull as Laenor's sons because Laenor has told him about Marilda of Hull and the time they spent together in his youth.

This could then also cause friction in the Black camp since Corlys and Rhaenys could be rightfully pissed that Rhaenyra and Daemon helped Laenor to fake his death, never told them about it, and now their son is truly dead.

In general, though, Laenor's (fake) death in the show should have been an accident - or something that people interpreted as an accident - so that the whole 'Rhaenyra/Daemon are behind it' accusation would be less obvious. Corlys and Rhaenys could then still suspect something, but if it wasn't even clearly a murder/killing, then it would have been much easier to accept it may have been just an accident.

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4 hours ago, DMC said:

This is putting it just about as nicely as possible.  I remember trying to get through his reviews back in the Grantland days, it was like reading an essay from an undergrad trying to impress me through exhaustive use of a thesaurus.

Yeah, I think Greenwald was overly harsh; but, he did make some good points.  He did love GOT, up until the last season - so he shared that perspective with the readers.  Chris Ryan has been somewhere in the middle in his thoughts (The Ringer has one review podcast with Ryan and a couple of book readers - Ryan's summaries are pretty funny/good - and then 'The Watch' podcast with Ryan/Greenwald that review many TV shows).  

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13 minutes ago, Lord of Brewtown said:

Yeah, I think Greenwald was overly harsh; but, he did make some good points.

Oh, to be clear I'm sure his points are valid - the season certainly warrants criticism from a characterization standpoint that, especially if you're a non-reader, makes entire sense.  Just expressing my distaste for Greenwald, at least as a reviewer.  He's incredibly pretentious.

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On 10/25/2022 at 7:10 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Even though I found the change to Luke’s death rather goofy, I think HOTD did a much better job (so far) of making Aemond a grey character than Daemon. I think the main difference is that Aemond shows genuine loyalty to his family—even his hated older brother—whereas Daemon really only cares about himself. The only person he seemed capable of loving was Viserys, and even that was a very twisted love.

While I love the way the show handled Luke, I completely agree that show Aemond is much better than book Aemond. 

Regarding show Daemon, I think it’s clear (to me, anyway), that he’s been in love with Rhaenyra since forever. In Ep one it’s just a love of his niece, nothing sexual. She’s smart, witty, and demands to be treated as an equal which he finds surprisingly refreshing, and can’t help but admire and respect her especially being the only child of his brother the King being raised around a bunch of men who prefer to see her on the same level as Alicent: chattel.

Daemon sees a lot of himself in Rhaenyra.

In episode 2 when she flys to Dragonstone of her own accord and demands he either kill her or give her the egg and stop being a petulant child, it’s very much on par with the wooing scene from Taming of the Shrew in that he recognizes an equal in her. Someone as smart, witty, sees no reason tolerate his tantrum and won’t hesitate to call him out for it. She earns even more of his respect in that moment, and he begins to see her for the amazing woman she’s becoming.

The entire reason (to me) that he has a physical issue with having sex with  Rhaenyra at the pleasure house (and bails on her out of anger at himself), is because he actually loves and respects her deeply (something he may never have realized until that moment), and knows he doesn’t want to cheapen his experience with her and/or risk ruining her sexual future by causing any trauma that might come with the shame of having her first time be anything less than amazing which (in his mind) couldn’t possibly be in a seedy pleasure house.

Even the crazy horrific rage-choking scene in Ep 10 seems rooted in his esteem for her and the disappointment, frustration, and anger at himself for believing at that moment (from his perspective because he’s completely unaware of the prophecy), she’s ineffectual like Viserys (and that could be fatal for all of them.)

It’s no surprise to Rhaenyra once she figures out why he feels that way when she starts talking about Aegon’s dream that Viserys told her about, because he believes/needs her to be better than her father who, “…was a slave to his omens and portents.” because his reaction is the tell that Viserys never told him nor showed him the evidence etched into the dagger.

The scenes just after her miscarriage show both their grief, and are amazing in their simplicity. I just love the chemistry that Emma and Matt have together.

On 10/25/2022 at 7:17 AM, Daeron the Daring said:

I'm not sure if George can block HBO from using any of his material, if they want to.

George has made it clear he left television because he got sick of the network suits telling him to rewrite scripts because they were too expensive to shoot, so he bailed to write the story he wanted to write even if that meant it stayed on the page. So I cannot fathom he’d ever sign away his IP completely to anyone. Not D&D. Not HBO. Not anyone.

Spoiler

Of course Ran might know… :)

George knows, likely more than most, how adaptations from written word storytelling to visual storytelling must make narrative changes. (House of the Undying is visually all spoilers as written.) He agreed to that concept when he chose to allow this journey we’re all on. However that doesn’t mean he ever agreed to allow full rein.

Edited by ShadowKitteh
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I thought the show was fine and entertaining, not great but I enjoy the parts they adapt from the books. What can I say, I’m a huge fan of these books lol…Edit: I’m a big fan of how they are portraying the dragons. I feel like most people think of them as some kind of pets but no they are more than just animals.

Also, I found it amusing talking to people about this show. I had asked one of my friends if she thought Aemond stole Vhagar and she was like ‘“well he didn’t steal her, but Rhaena had first dibs on riding Vaghar and Vaghar liked Aemond because he had a good heart” lmao

I know this is going to be unpopular but my original issue with Rhaenyra is that kings and princes have bastards all the time and they are not legitimate. When Rhaenyra had her children, they should have been acknowledged as bastards instead of being in line of the throne. 

Edited by Crona
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9 hours ago, Crona said:

I thought the show was fine and entertaining, not great but I enjoy the parts they adapt from the books. What can I say, I’m a huge fan of these books lol…Edit: I’m a big fan of how they are portraying the dragons. I feel like most people think of them as some kind of pets but no they are more than just animals.

Also, I found it amusing talking to people about this show. I had asked one of my friends if she thought Aemond stole Vhagar and she was like ‘“well he didn’t steal her, but Rhaena had first dibs on riding Vaghar and Vaghar liked Aemond because he had a good heart” lmao

I know this is going to be unpopular but my original issue with Rhaenyra is that kings and princes have bastards all the time and they are not legitimate. When Rhaenyra had her children, they should have been acknowledged as bastards instead of being in line of the throne. 

The men are the ones having the bastards, though. And even then, they are rarely acknowledged, specially if the man is already married. Rhaenyra having bastards and acknowledging them publicly would be enough to make the Velaryons dissolve the marriage if they wanted to, have her branded as a whore in the eyes of most people, and have her political situation be unsustainable.

Really, the whole issue is that Rhaenyra shouldn't have had children in the first place, it ends or at least reduces a lot the risk of a succession crisis, since Aegon is the heir anyway. Particularly in the show, where they age difference is pretty much mother and child.

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Just some end-of-season thoughts.
Well - do we really need a childbirth or miscarriage every other episode? As usual, Daemon's character dominates a room and is a credit to any scene.
Jace looks way too young and short.  I don't know how they expect something like that to hold any authority. But he won't be around for much longer I suppose in any case.

The soundtrack is pretty good, especially the motif with the human voices. All of the black characters but Corlys seem to be put there for comedic relief - his granddaughters with their absurd blond dreads just standing uselessly in the camera pan during the most random scenes.

All in all, HotD cannot compare to the realism and organisation of GoT episodes, but is good enough to be somewhat believable (unlike some of the cringey scenes from RoP).

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On 10/25/2022 at 1:29 PM, LordBolton'sLeech said:

I do like the show (barring a few decisions like the context of Cole killing Joffrey) a lot more than the book version. Because it does feel like a drama in which I can connect with the characters rather than a brief overview with a lot of 'maybe this happened or maybe this other completely different thing happened'. I'm actually sad to not get a show version of the earlier stories. Would have loved to see more about Jahaerys, Alysanne and their kids. 

I agree with everything here except I absolutely loved Cole killing Joffrey. Show Cole is exponentially more of a three-dimensional human than book Cole.

Beating Joffrey to death contained everything Cole had experienced up to that moment, made complete sense, and gave him far more realistic agency than the book, which it should, considering it’s supposed to be a history book, not dramatized history.

Even though his offer to marry Rhaenyra and escape with her to a life he truly believes will not only restore his own honor and self worth, but will also free her and give her a life of happiness and freedom he believes she wants and deserves. 

But being a male of his time, he doesn’t consider her duty, her honor, and most of all, her opportunity to shatter the status quo by proving she and women everywhere are just as capable as men in addition to being brood mares. (We are multitasking ninjas!)

Of course his first reaction would be the same reaction most women have had in the same situation throughout history. But as a man, even a commoner, he doesn’t entertain the possibility of rejection to his brilliant rescue plan or that he’s aiming out of his league at someone who doesn’t really have a choice.

He’s just blind to the reality of her station because of her gender. If she was a male and had impregnated Cole’s sister, he’d never entertain the possibility the pair could run away together, and he’d chide his sister for putting herself in that position in the first place. (However, I’m sure part of his rage is directed at himself for that exact reason.)

He never considered she wasn’t complaining about doing the job, only being forced into an arranged marriage on her father’s timetable. So he’s shocked, insulted, hurt because he’s in love with her, and now out of hope because he’s broken his vow, is angry at his own weakness, and angry at her rejecting what he honestly thought was a solution she’d embrace. (So many shades of Rhaegar running away with Lyanna.)

Then top that off with Joffrey’s parlay, which Cole finds insulting to him for assuming he knows what’s going on (being found out), to Rhaenyra who he’s still in love with at that point and won’t tolerate his insolence, and it’s all taking place at a wedding he knows is a sham, and wishes it was his own wedding.

It’s the perfect alignment of events to ignite the walking powder keg that is Ser Cristin Cole at that moment in time.

I love the way they’ve written his character with time making him more bitter, angry, and seething with hate, because he can’t get over her. And Frankel plays it brilliantly.

 

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9 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

The men are the ones having the bastards, though. And even then, they are rarely acknowledged, specially if the man is already married. Rhaenyra having bastards and acknowledging them publicly would be enough to make the Velaryons dissolve the marriage if they wanted to, have her branded as a whore in the eyes of most people, and have her political situation be unsustainable.

Really, the whole issue is that Rhaenyra shouldn't have had children in the first place, it ends or at least reduces a lot the risk of a succession crisis, since Aegon is the heir anyway. Particularly in the show, where they age difference is pretty much mother and child.

I think that her duty (in-universe) is to have children.  Especially when you consider that  Aegon is Joffrey Baratheon, more or less.

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