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[Spoilers] Episode 110 Discussion


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2 hours ago, SeanF said:

I think that her duty (in-universe) is to have children.  Especially when you consider that  Aegon is Joffrey Baratheon, more or less.

It's her duty to have children...with her husband. Not having three bastards, specially when they are obviously not her husband's. And it's not like she knew Aegon would turn out to be a vile POS before she begun having children.

 

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18 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Really, the whole issue is that Rhaenyra shouldn't have had children in the first place, it ends or at least reduces a lot the risk of a succession crisis, since Aegon is the heir anyway. Particularly in the show, where they age difference is pretty much mother and child.

Neither father nor daughter want Viserys to sit on the throne and Rhaenyra not having heirs of her own is just an easy way to get her replaced.

Rhaenyra not having children is a non starter, just like Viserys not having more heirs.

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In retrospect, it’s regrettable that the show didn’t seize on opportunities to flesh out character interactions that we never got in the books. The last time Rhaenyra and Criston spoke was when she turned down his marriage proposal (he was at the door when she brought Joffrey to Alicent, but I don’t think Rhaenyra said anything, and her back was to us). It would have been great to see them ten years later, forced to make pleasantries.

Or Larys, who lost all of his subtlety during the gap. We could have gotten a scene with him and Harwin similar to the one Tyrion had with Jaime in AGOT, where Larys clearly realizes that the kids are Harwin’s, but neither ever says the words. The fact that we never saw what his relationship was like with Lyonel also feels like a misstep.

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5 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

In retrospect, it’s regrettable that the show didn’t seize on opportunities to flesh out character interactions that we never got in the books. The last time Rhaenyra and Criston spoke was when she turned down his marriage proposal (he was at the door when she brought Joffrey to Alicent, but I don’t think Rhaenyra said anything, and her back was to us). It would have been great to see them ten years later, forced to make pleasantries.

Or Larys, who lost all of his subtlety during the gap. We could have gotten a scene with him and Harwin similar to the one Tyrion had with Jaime in AGOT, where Larys clearly realizes that the kids are Harwin’s, but neither ever says the words. The fact that we never saw what his relationship was like with Lyonel also feels like a misstep.

Well, technically, she speaks to him in 1x07, when she says "You will do no such thing" to Alicent's request to have Luke's eye removed.

But yeah, apart from that, they don't have any more dialogues after 1x05

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13 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

So short men cannot be in positions of authority?

 

Imagine telling the Hand of the King, Tyrion Lannister that...

Actually, the last fellow who did got sent to the Wall and eventually lost his head...

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On 10/30/2022 at 9:50 AM, Winterfell is Burning said:

It's her duty to have children...with her husband. Not having three bastards, specially when they are obviously not her husband's. And it's not like she knew Aegon would turn out to be a vile POS before she begun having children.

Out of curiosity, aside from Otto Hightower and his foul offspring, does anyone actually care?

The vast majority of Lords and Ladies of Westeros will never see the children, let alone their father.

And the idea that they know brown hair means that they're not laenors is ascribing knowledge I sincerely doubt they have.

Edited by C.T. Phipps
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2 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Out of curiosity, aside from Otto Hightower and his foul offspring, does anyone actually care?

The vast majority of Lords and Ladies of Westeros will never see the children, let alone their father.

And the idea that they know brown hair means that they're not laenors is ascribing knowledge I sincerely doubt they have.

Of course it's not only that they have brown hair- is that they look very similar to Robert Strong, while looking nothing like Laenor, who is gay. In the show, of course he's even from a different ethnicity, which makes the problem worse (of course, in the books he's even more clearly gay).

The issue is that it's an obvious weakness that can be easily exploited by enemies as a casus belli. IRL that already happened even when there's no evidence that the King/heir was a bastard, imagine when there is. Even more due to the fact that she's a woman when there's sons available.

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8 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Out of curiosity, aside from Otto Hightower and his foul offspring, does anyone actually care?

The vast majority of Lords and Ladies of Westeros will never see the children, let alone their father.

And the idea that they know brown hair means that they're not laenors is ascribing knowledge I sincerely doubt they have.

In the book only the core Green cabal pretended to care. And for them this was only a pretext to justify their coup.

How little they actually cared can be seen by the 'generous terms' Aegon II makes Rhaenyra ... which specifically confirm the legitimate birth of both Jacaerys and Lucerys Velaryon, recognizing Jace as Rhaenyra's eldest trueborn son and heir, and Luke as her trueborn son and the rightful heir to Driftmark.

If this whole thing had been a serious issue in the Green camp or the Realm at large then the Greens may have not been willing or able to address this issue in the terms they offered to her.

In the show, the thing has been changed in the sense that Harwin Strong very much looks like Jace, Luke, and Joff ... which is not stated in the book. There the boys don't have Laenor's hair, eyes, and nose, but nobody ever states they have the hair, yes, and nose of Ser Harwin Strong. Which means it is actually not unlikely that Harwin didn't resemble the boys much and was merely the 'true father' the Greens chose to slander Rhaenyra because he was her constant male companion whilst her husband lived in another castle on another island.

In the show there is a chance that more people in the Realm might care since they wrote things in a manner that the boys themselves do care about it, feel insecure about their status because they don't look like Laenor.

However, in the book canon it is quite clear that the official historical version lists them as legitimate children of Rhaenyra Targaryen and Ser Laenor Velaryon. This becomes especially obvious in Gyldayn's narrative of Joffrey Velaryon's death - where he still sits on the fence who the real father of the boy was. And insofar as historical sources are concerned, only Mushroom claims that the boys are Harwin's seed. Eustace just mentions the slanderous rumors but dismisses them.

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On 10/26/2022 at 2:01 AM, Crixus said:

Aemond cares about Helaena: onscreen evidence has him defend her. Anything like 'I think he wants her because Aegon has her' is pure conjecture. 

He does indeed defend her, and I desperately hope (need it to be) more than just wanting what Aegon has, but Helaena does say it herself before Alicent and Otto come in looking for Aegon.

It is our fate, I think, to crave always what is given to another. If one possess a thing, the other will take it away.”

Nanny: Yes, Princess.  
(Alicent and Otto enter)  
Alicent: Where’s Aegon?  
Helaena: Not here.
Otto: He’s not in his rooms.  
(Helaena looks down at her embroidery. Otto exits.)   
Alicent: Father   
Helaena: What’s happened?  
(Nanny leaves with the twins. Alicent sits next to Helaena.)   
Alicent: Your father-   
Helaena: There is a beast beneath the boards.  
Alicent: oh, my dearest love.
(Alicent tries to comfort her, but Helaena pushes her hand away not wanting to be touched.)

Aemond walks into the room and looks at her and Alicent with the closest thing to sympathy and actual caring/love that he’s had thus far… 

And sure, that comment could be about anything, including the Hightowers’s coup…and still might be. 

But why give Aemond the line in episode 7 about marrying Helaena and doing his duty after Aegon complaining about having nothing in common with their sister? Surely they could have related the Aegon’s-Helaena betrothal in a number of ways. Interesting they chose that one.

And yes… I want it to happen so Aemond isn’t a one-note needs-a-mustache-to-twist super-villain in the vein of Ramsay and King Joffrey, so I’m likely fixating on those moments… Sure is fun though. And having Aemond be the father of her kids would give both of their story arcs more depth, agency, dimension, sympathy, and makes them both more tragic because they will have experienced some happiness.

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1 hour ago, ShadowKitteh said:

He does indeed defend her, and I desperately hope (need it to be) more than just wanting what Aegon has, but Helaena does say it herself before Alicent and Otto come in looking for Aegon.

Yeah, defo me too, as I don't want him to be one-note either, as you say. 

1 hour ago, ShadowKitteh said:

It is our fate, I think, to crave always what is given to another. If one possess a thing, the other will take it away.”

Nanny: Yes, Princess.  
(Alicent and Otto enter)  
Alicent: Where’s Aegon?  
Helaena: Not here.
Otto: He’s not in his rooms.  
(Helaena looks down at her embroidery. Otto exits.)   
Alicent: Father   
Helaena: What’s happened?  
(Nanny leaves with the twins. Alicent sits next to Helaena.)   
Alicent: Your father-   
Helaena: There is a beast beneath the boards.  
Alicent: oh, my dearest love.
(Alicent tries to comfort her, but Helaena pushes her hand away not wanting to be touched.)

Aemond walks into the room and looks at her and Alicent with the closest thing to sympathy and actual caring/love that he’s had thus far… 

And sure, that comment could be about anything, including the Hightowers’s coup…and still might be. 

I thought it did indeed refer to the coup, as it gels with the entire plot of the episode (and indeed, the season). I would prefer Aemond caring for Helaena because she's his sibling and clearly a unique individual, especially vs. his brother. I felt Aemond may have a degree of tenderness for her. 

1 hour ago, ShadowKitteh said:

But why give Aemond the line in episode 7 about marrying Helaena and doing his duty after Aegon complaining about having nothing in common with their sister? Surely they could have related the Aegon’s-Helaena betrothal in a number of ways. Interesting they chose that one.

For me, this was about contrasting Aegon's rejection of every aspect of the future that his mother wanted for him, with Aemond's eagerness to take up that role with all that it meant - marriage to Heleana is more about ensuring continuity and heirs especially if Aegon sat the throne. 

1 hour ago, ShadowKitteh said:

And yes… I want it to happen so Aemond isn’t a one-note needs-a-mustache-to-twist super-villain in the vein of Ramsay and King Joffrey, so I’m likely fixating on those moments… Sure is fun though. And having Aemond be the father of her kids would give both of their story arcs more depth, agency, dimension, sympathy, and makes them both more tragic because they will have experienced some happiness.

It could definitely add a dimension to their relationships and also to Aemond's behaviour post B&C. For me though, I think they've really emphasised the 'duty' aspect of Aemond's personality in line with his mother's wishes, and committing adultery with Aegon's wife - however much he loathes him - may not fit that portrayal. The fact that he was sorely tempted by Aegon's plea to let him escape but didn't give in sealed this for me, especially given his earlier conversation with Criston. But speculation is the fun part! :) 

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On 10/26/2022 at 5:51 AM, butterweedstrover said:

The birth scene is meant to juxtapose Viserys and Aemma. Whereas Viserys chose the child over his wife,

That’s incorrect. Saving/choosing Aemma was never on the table.

The choice was: “To sacrifice one, or lose them both.

The child was breech. All efforts to turn him had failed.

Aemma wasn’t going to live through it no matter what.

Attempting to save the child likely was a mercy for Aemma. Not attempting to save it would have prolonged her agony and inevitable slow and painful death.

Google: obstructed labour and maternal mortality.

Edited by ShadowKitteh
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3 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

That’s incorrect. Saving/choosing Aemma was never on the table.

The choice was: “To sacrifice one, or lose them both.

The child was breech. All efforts to turn him had failed.

Aemma wasn’t going to live through it no matter what.

Attempting to save the child likely was a mercy for Aemma. Not attempting to save it would have prolonged her agony and inevitable slow and painful death.

Google: obstructed labour and maternal mortality.

It is still a juxtaposition. Viserys doesn't tell his wife what is going on and you see the horror and confusion upon her face. Hs main concern is having a son and he puts that above the well-being of his wife. In fact that has been his only concerns for a long time, pushing his wife into another pregnancy and ignoring everything else. 

But with Daemon, we see it's not about having a male heir (despite having none). He doesn't care about power or pursing ambition in Westeros, he wants his wife alive with him and in Essos. 

Regardless, the point stands that Daemon is portrayed as fundamentally good when it matters. Intellectually we know he does horrible stuff, but the show made a creative decision to portray all his evil as superficial producing not even a ripple within the narrative whereas his main motivations (saving his wife, protecting his brother, helping his niece, etc.) are all heroic in nature. In fact his scummy behavior just becomes a shallow coat of paint to make him seem edgy. 

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On 10/29/2022 at 6:51 PM, Winterfell is Burning said:

The men are the ones having the bastards, though. And even then, they are rarely acknowledged, specially if the man is already married. Rhaenyra having bastards and acknowledging them publicly would be enough to make the Velaryons dissolve the marriage if they wanted to, have her branded as a whore in the eyes of most people, and have her political situation be unsustainable.

Really, the whole issue is that Rhaenyra shouldn't have had children in the first place, it ends or at least reduces a lot the risk of a succession crisis, since Aegon is the heir anyway. Particularly in the show, where they age difference is pretty much mother and child.

Oh yes I agree that she shouldn’t have kids in the first place anyway especially if she has moon tea. But this is the plot point George made. Apparently, only the Hightowers had an issue with it, not half the realm. I mean Daeron was suspected as a bastard and there was a rebellion to put a more targ like king, Daemon on the throne. 

I find Corlys’ excuse for wanting Luc to inherit driftmark pretty unbelievable due to this. The show tried to make sense of it lol

Edited by Crona
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I don’t think there’s going to be any romantic love between Helaena or Aemond, for no other reason than that he’ll all but certainly start a relationship with Alys Rivers next season. I think Aemond and Helaena are supposed to be more like Jon and Sansa were on GOT (who people also shipped, because this is the internet).

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59 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I don’t think there’s going to be any romantic love between Helaena or Aemond, for no other reason than that he’ll all but certainly start a relationship with Alys Rivers next season. I think Aemond and Helaena are supposed to be more like Jon and Sansa were on GOT (who people also shipped, because this is the internet).

Did D&D ever intend for there to be romantic undertones with Sansa & Jon or was that an invention of the fans?

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2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Did D&D ever intend for there to be romantic undertones with Sansa & Jon or was that an invention of the fans?

The fans, as far as I know. They never mentioned it themselves, and Sophie T. was pretty grossed out when it came up during a comic con panel.

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20 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Really funny Honest Trailer

https://youtu.be/S7fAsYHntH8

Some amusing ones. Like the Kermit voice for "It's not easy being green," and Helaena as the Human Spoiler Alert.

The By the Numbers, if accurate, is pretty interesting. 

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