[Spoilers] Episode 110 Discussion

[Cashless Society]

9 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I don’t think anything will turn Daemon’s fans against him, to be honest.

Okay, would it make them conflicted?

[The Bard of Banefort]

2 minutes ago, Cashless Society said:

Okay, would it make them conflicted?

I don’t think so, because people would justify it by saying that it was kill or be killed. But by making Aegon a tiny bit more sympathetic, it would at least make the greens less outright villainous.

[Ran]

39 minutes ago, frenin said:

Has Martin ever commented how Rhaenyra came to be seen as a usurper, and Aegon the acknowledged monarch, with her children on the throne and her partisans having defeated the Greens?

It's said in F&B: it was agreed that Aegon the Younger would be proclaimed as heir to Aegon II, after Corlys Velaryon proposed the solution. To quite his statement then:

Quote

"The realm has been split asunder,” he said. “We must needs join it back together.”

Rhaenyra was dead. It did her no good to proclaim her queen after the fact, and would have jeopardized his succession. And after Aegon II was dead, lets remember the Regents included Greens as well as Blacks. The Blacks got her son on the throne, the Greens got Aegon II's heir on the throne, and so there was peace over the matter.

[Cashless Society]

15 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I don’t think so, because people would justify it by saying that it was kill or be killed. But by making Aegon a tiny bit more sympathetic, it would at least make the greens less outright villainous.

I agree on the less villainous part.

[frenin]

2 hours ago, Ran said:

It's said in F&B: it was agreed that Aegon the Younger would be proclaimed as heir to Aegon II, after Corlys Velaryon proposed the solution. To quite his statement then:

So her sons just ran with it even once in power? The Blacks admitted to have committed treason even when they were in a position of power? 

Doesn't sound like any civil war, before of after the Dance tbh.

[Ran]

12 minutes ago, frenin said:

So her sons just ran with it even once in power?

Why rush reopening old wounds? Why call into question their place on the throne? Rhaenyra was long dead, it did no one any good to go, "Oh, yeah, I denounce and reject my inheritance from my uncle, it's actually my mother who died before him who was the rightful queen."

12 minutes ago, frenin said:

The Blacks admitted to have committed treason even when they were in a position of power? 

They were all pardoned.

12 minutes ago, frenin said:

Doesn't sound like any civil war, before of after the Dance tbh.

I mean, this is what happened in the Anarchy. Matilda fought for the throne her cousin usurped, and in the end the realm grew weary of the civil war, a peace was negotiated, and her son became heir to Stephen. She was never recognized as queen, her son's inheritance came through Stephen, and Henry II didn't go trying to change the record just to satisfy her mother and her supporters.

 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by Ran

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, Ran said:

I mean, this is what happened in the Anarchy. Matilda fought for the throne her cousin usurped, and in the end the realm grew weary of the civil war, a peace was negotiated, and her son became heir to Stephen. She was never recognized as queen, her son's inheritance came through Stephen, and Henry II didn't go trying to change the record just to satisfy her mother and her supporters.

Bad comparison. Matilda was never crowned and anointed queen and Stephen was imprisoned but never deposed. You cannot create a queen who never was ... but Henry II got king because of the claim he inherited from his grandfather through his mother.

But we should drop this entire issue since the book never actually specifically state Rhaenyra wasn't a queen. Just because the appendix of AGoT lists Aegon II as the monarch doesn't mean the Westerosi didn't view her as queen.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

On 11/5/2022 at 4:28 AM, ShadowKitteh said:

Then the growling rage on Aemond’s face…

Aemond gets very little sympathy from me.  He was bullied as a kid and became what he purportedly disliked.

[frenin]

2 hours ago, Ran said:

Why rush reopening old wounds? Why call into question their place on the throne? Rhaenyra was long dead, it did no one any good to go, "Oh, yeah, I denounce and reject my inheritance from my uncle, it's actually my mother who died before him who was the rightful queen."

They were all pardoned.

I mean, this is what happened in the Anarchy. Matilda fought for the throne her cousin usurped, and in the end the realm grew weary of the civil war, a peace was negotiated, and her son became heir to Stephen. She was never recognized as queen, her son's inheritance came through Stephen, and Henry II didn't go trying to change the record just to satisfy her mother and her supporters.

Eh agree to disagree, seems rather convenient.

Matilda never seated on the English throne nor she, afaik ruled in any significant way, although I have my English history a bit rusty, whereas Rhaenyra sat on the throne and ruled, hence her moniker and taxes.

And the Blacks were in a position of force to just accept a pardon for... winning the war.

Then again, the Dance is weird. Sounds like Nymor's letter all over again.

 

Btw, is it known till what period will the show cover?

I agree with Martin, It'd been far better if we had seen the previous generation and the shimmering tensions. Then again, Daemon would look the same so...

[Ran]

1 minute ago, frenin said:

Matilda never seated on the English throne nor she, afaik ruled in any significant way, although I have my English history a bit rusty, whereas Rhaenyra sat on the throne and ruled, hence her moniker and taxes.

There clearly is not a belief that there can be two kings at the same time. Aegon was crowned and seated on the Iron Throne before her. So long as he lived, she was a pretender, her reign illegitimate. She died before him, her son inherited as Aegon's heir, and that's basically it. What is there about Aegon III that makes him seem like he'd make a grand gesture for his dead mother? The Broken King was scarred by the war and seemed devoted to peace. Trying to rewrite the history books makes no sense.

The show will go through the Dance. Ryan Condal has spoken of the possibility that the show could continue after that to explore other periods of the Targaryen history -- even going back to the Doom, or going forward to a reign after the dragons are gone, etc. He doesn't seem interested in the Regency period, alas.

 

[SeanF]

39 minutes ago, Ran said:

There clearly is not a belief that there can be two kings at the same time. Aegon was crowned and seated on the Iron Throne before her. So long as he lived, she was a pretender, her reign illegitimate. She died before him, her son inherited as Aegon's heir, and that's basically it. What is there about Aegon III that makes him seem like he'd make a grand gesture for his dead mother? The Broken King was scarred by the war and seemed devoted to peace. Trying to rewrite the history books makes no sense.

The show will go through the Dance. Ryan Condal has spoken of the possibility that the show could continue after that to explore other periods of the Targaryen history -- even going back to the Doom, or going forward to a reign after the dragons are gone, etc. He doesn't seem interested in the Regency period, alas.

 

Honestly, it’s a stretch to view her as a pretender.  She took the capital, and was crowned, and took her enemies captive, and reigned.

She’s not Edgar Atheling or Bonnie Prince Charlie.

[DMC]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Then again, Daemon would look the same so...

It'd be pretty funny if they had the guy who plays teenage Aemond play young Daemon.

Anyway, as I said when that video was first posted, I think it woulda been a great idea to have one or two episodes - maybe a feature length "episode" - on Aemon/Baelon up to the Great Council.  Hell, conceivably they could still do that.

[Ran]

28 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Honestly, it’s a stretch to view her as a pretender.  She took the capital, and was crowned, and took her enemies captive, and reigned.

And yet the king who was crowned was still out there, and crowned before her. I think that gives plenty of room to imagine that until he's out of the picture, Rhaenyra's coronation is not legitimate. Which ultimately is what happens in Westeros, she's never considered a real queen and is not in the lists as one.

I mean, this is all GRRM here. I'm just connecting the dots regarding the fact that Rhaenyra is not listed as queen in any official list that has been published, and how the details in F&B explain it.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

Anyway, as I said when that video was first posted, I think it woulda been a great idea to have one or two episodes - maybe a feature length "episode" - on Aemon/Baelon up to the Great Council.  Hell, conceivably they could still do that.

Indeed, I always found it strange how much info we had on Jaeharys's reign but how little did we know about people other than Jaeharys and Alyssane.

But also... Wouldn't that period be covered in a future show narrating Corlys's rising?

 

2 hours ago, Ran said:

The show will go through the Dance. Ryan Condal has spoken of the possibility that the show could continue after that to explore other periods of the Targaryen history -- even going back to the Doom, or going forward to a reign after the dragons are gone, etc. He doesn't seem interested in the Regency period, alas.

 

A pity then, although the regency is way too gloomy anyway.

About Rhaehyra thing, again agree to disagree. As finally written, the Blacks were in a position of too much strength for this arrangement to be believable. I have a hard time imagining Cregan accepting he declared for an usurper and accepting the pardon.  This sounds as believable as Dany accepting to take the throne because she's Robert's cousin.

[DMC]

6 minutes ago, frenin said:

But also... Wouldn't that period be covered in a future show narrating Corlys's rising?

I guess?  Frankly I'd be more interested in Aemon and Baelon - as well as their dynamic with their parents - than Corlys' youth.

[SeanF]

7 minutes ago, frenin said:

Indeed, I always found it strange how much info we had on Jaeharys's reign but how little did we know about people other than Jaeharys and Alyssane.

But also... Wouldn't that period be covered in a future show narrating Corlys's rising?

 

A pity then, although the regency is way too gloomy anyway.

About Rhaehyra thing, again agree to disagree. As finally written, the Blacks were in a position of too much strength for this arrangement to be believable. I have a hard time imagining Cregan accepting he declared for an usurper and accepting the pardon.  This sounds as believable as Dany accepting to take the throne because she's Robert's cousin.

Yes.  Aegon II’s bloodline was destroyed.  Rhaenyra’s triumphed, and every future king is her descendant.  The Greens were crushed and their leaders sent to the Wall or executed.

It makes no sense for the victors to beg the losers for pardon, or to say they fought for a usurper.

Rhaenyra is the posthumous victim of people trying to rewrite history.  But, a good historian should see through the fabrications of partisans.

[Stannis is the man....nis]

On 11/6/2022 at 11:50 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

In retrospect, I would have preferred that Aegon was more of a lovable loser than an alcoholic degenerate. The actor showed enough brief glimpses of this that I definitely think he could have pulled it off. By making Aegon so despicable, and by not playing up how Daemon would definitely have had his nephews put to the sword, the show failed to make this conflict more morally ambiguous, despite clearly intending to.

Yeah it still boggles my mind why they went this route with Aegon because the in the writers interviews people like Sara Hess said they wanted the audience to feel bad for Aegon when it comes to his upbringing. So why go with the most unflattering version of him you could?

[EggBlue]

so , I finally watched it!

this was my favorite episode this season , followed (not closely) with episode 1...

the acting and music in this show is just great . no other word necessary for it:) 

focus on Luke this episode was much needed for his conclusion . and Aemond's change fit well within his characterization . another benefit to this was introducing dragons' agency early on , before we get to Syrax and Silverwing .

as long as we are on dragon subject, has there been a more pointless scene in the series that Daemon singing for Vermitor ?!  I can see the benefit in showing Daemon's sole interest(=obsession) as well as his utter recklessness (Vermitor could kill him if it didn't like the song) , but there were so many dragon moments they didn't include that this felt too unnecessary to spend budget on . 

I'm glad they included the choking scene ! I once said mid season that they've already made Daemon so villainous towards secondary characters that if they want it to be believable , he can't always be the "hero" when it comes to Rhaenyra and that Daemon-Rhaenyra ships sucks in that context. and yeah , there it is , they committed to it . of course , this Daemon would hurt her too whenever she has her voice against him and doesn't fulfill his dragonlord fantasy . well done. 

also , how ironic is it that Boros (least Baratheon character of Baratheon book characters) is the most Bratheon-looking Baratheon in GoT universe? ! 

[Ran]

10 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

as long as we are on dragon subject, has there been a more pointless scene in the series that Daemon singing for Vermitor ?! 

I think it's in large part about showing that they have a huge dragon as well. Not as huge as Vhagar, no, but not something dwarfed by Vhagar.

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

Yeah it still boggles my mind why they went this route with Aegon because the in the writers interviews people like Sara Hess said they wanted the audience to feel bad for Aegon when it comes to his upbringing. So why go with the most unflattering version of him you could?

It worked pretty well for me. I like Aegon II in the show, he is clearly a victim of the abuse his mother levied on him (and, presumably, to a lesser part of his royal father's neglect).

Okay, he rapes some servant girl, but that is barely a crime in this setting/world, and that the adult entertainment industry of this world sucks, so it is not mainly his fault that he ended up liking cage fights involving slave children.

13 hours ago, SeanF said:

Yes.  Aegon II’s bloodline was destroyed.  Rhaenyra’s triumphed, and every future king is her descendant.  The Greens were crushed and their leaders sent to the Wall or executed.

It makes no sense for the victors to beg the losers for pardon, or to say they fought for a usurper.

Rhaenyra is the posthumous victim of people trying to rewrite history.  But, a good historian should see through the fabrications of partisans.

It makes no sense to not count Rhaenyra as a (or the rightful) monarch considering she was the named heir and her bloodline prevailed.

The very idea that her descendants would actually base their own claims to the throne on Aegon II being strong-armed by Corlys into acknowledging Aegon III as his presumptive heir is ludicrous. They would all go with the fact that their claim goes through Rhaenyra, that Aegon III was only acknowledged as heir because the Blacks had the upper hand, and that Aegon III only became king because his court turned against him, murdered him, and crowned his nephew in his stead.

The inclusion of some Greens in the regency government is an afterthought. It had nothing to do with Aegon III's rise to the throne or the validity of his kingship. He was proclaimed king before the Greens agreed to Corlys' terms ... and he would have been crowned king even if the Greens hadn't accepted Corlys' terms.

Including Tyland and the other Greens in the regency government was a sign of reconciliation, window-dressing, a way to appear nice ... but it wasn't a necessary condition to crown Aegon III nor had it been determined by the time Aegon III became king.

Larys Strong and Corlys Velaryon made Aegon III king - and they murdered Aegon II to do it. Afterwards Cregan Stark - a fervent Black - seized power in the capital and could have destroyed or severely weakened the remaining Greens as well as run the regency government of young Aegon until his majority. He did have all the power.

Greens were only included in the regency government when Cregan abandoned his revenge plans and gave up the Handship. Had he kept it, he would have run the show.

But as I said above - it is actually wrong to claim that Rhaenyra is officially not counted as a monarch in-universe. Stannis views her as a pretender but Stannis is a pretender himself. We don't get any official take on Rhaenyra's queenship in the books.