[Spoilers] Episode 110 Discussion

[The Bard of Banefort]

Even though, as a book fan, I would have absolutely preferred that we had the canon ending ahead of time, I can see now how ASOIAF being unfinished contributed to the hype around GOT, since there was so much theorizing between seasons. You can’t really do that with HOTD, so it’s mostly speculation about how certain scenes will be adapted from the books, with non-book fans avoiding all discourse so that they don’t get spoiled. HOTD is carried more by shipping and fan wars over the greens vs. blacks. 

It also explains why ROP was never going to have the same kind of fandom as GOT. We know how the story ends. 

[Lord Varys]

Book Joff is an asshole kid, but no psychopathic murderer and pervert like show Joffrey.

Him brutalizing peasants and the sister of one of his greatest enemies doesn't make him some great villain. He is mostly all talk, not action. Of course, his talk makes him pretty dangerous since he is first a prince and then the king, but Ned's execution aside Joff had no influence on his own government. He made no military nor any political decisions of note. Even the power he wielded he could only wield because Cersei as Queen Regent didn't put her foot down. She allowed him to play king with his sentences involving duels to the death and the like ... which she wasn't forced to do.

But Joff only enjoyed this free rein early in his reign, before Tyrion and eventually Tywin took over the Handship. Under his uncle and grandfather Joffrey is reduced to a puppet king/figurehead with no voice in the government of the Realm.

And there is no idea anyone planned to change that soon, since Joffrey was both not inclined to attend council session and the like, nor particularly smart.

[BlackLightning]

On 12/4/2022 at 11:48 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

So long story short, even in Westeros, murdering your spouse is a uniquely shitty thing to do.

Isn’t that convention this week? Maybe they’ll announce Snow.

Exactly

It's part of the reason why I think Jon killing Daenerys is actually a GRRM ending.

[The Bard of Banefort]

16 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Exactly

It's part of the reason why I think Jon killing Daenerys is actually a GRRM ending.

If it wasn’t GRRM’s ending, he would have made some passive-aggressive comment by now indicating as much. He did that for all the added rape scenes (Dany, Cersei, Sansa), and for other assorted details like the hunt in S1, dragons going beyond the Wall, and hipster pirate Euron. In one of those oral histories (Tinderbox, I think), he said Dany’s arc was brilliant. 

[BlackLightning]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

If it wasn’t GRRM’s ending, he would have made some passive-aggressive comment by now indicating as much. He did that for all the added rape scenes (Dany, Cersei, Sansa), and for other assorted details like the hunt in S1, dragons going beyond the Wall, and hipster pirate Euron. In one of those oral histories (Tinderbox, I think), he said Dany’s arc was brilliant. 

True.

However, D&D didn't establish that it was a GRRM ending or not...which is something that they regularly did. They explicitly stated that Bran becoming the endgame King of All Westeros™ (and thereby, the ultimate winner in the game of thrones) was from GRRM (it was the last of the three WTF moments they talked about) and then they also explicitly stated that Arya killing the Night King and single-handedly ending the Long Night was an idea that they had personally conceived during the writing process for season 6.

Their lack of differentiating there makes me think that -- at some point -- King's Landing is completely destroyed and, after the problem with the Others, fAegon/Varys/Arianne/JonCon, Littlefinger, Euron, and Cersei is (mostly) resolved, Jon will be crowned with Daenerys as his queen consort...

BUT there will be a lot of bad blood between Dany, the Starks and Tyrion. There is going to be some sort of fallout between the heroes/survivors and Bran will assume control of the continent thereafter.

I think that the tempo and temperature of the fallout between the Big 6 that sees the kingship moved from Jon to Bran is just so wildly different between D&D's version and GRRM's version that they kept silent about it.

That said, I also don't think King's Landing will be destroyed by Daenerys...at least not like that; not at the very end of the series. I think it will be Euron or JonCon who will destroy the city: Euron by magic because he is a psycho who wants to use magic to try to turn himself into a god or JonCon by wildfire as part of a deranged attempt to spite his enemies...

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

True.

However, D&D didn't establish that it was a GRRM ending or not...which is something that they regularly did. They explicitly stated that Bran becoming the endgame King of All Westeros™ (and thereby, the ultimate winner in the game of thrones) was from GRRM (it was the last of the three WTF moments they talked about) and then they also explicitly stated that Arya killing the Night King and single-handedly ending the Long Night was an idea that they had personally conceived during the writing process for season 6.

Their lack of differentiating there makes me think that -- at some point -- King's Landing is completely destroyed and, after the problem with the Others, fAegon/Varys/Arianne/JonCon, Littlefinger, Euron, and Cersei is (mostly) resolved, Jon will be crowned with Daenerys as his queen consort...

BUT there will be a lot of bad blood between Dany, the Starks and Tyrion. There is going to be some sort of fallout between the heroes/survivors and Bran will assume control of the continent thereafter.

I think that the tempo and temperature of the fallout between the Big 6 that sees the kingship moved from Jon to Bran is just so wildly different between D&D's version and GRRM's version that they kept silent about it.

That said, I also don't think King's Landing will be destroyed by Daenerys...at least not like that; not at the very end of the series. I think it will be Euron or JonCon who will destroy the city: Euron by magic because he is a psycho who wants to use magic to try to turn himself into a god or JonCon by wildfire as part of a deranged attempt to spite his enemies...

Jon’s murdering his own wife would be bleak.  If it happens, I expect it will be down to Tyrion’s sexual jealousy, which would give a somewhat similar ending to the show, but without attempting to whitewash the Imp.

Edited December 6, 2022 by SeanF

[butterweedstrover]

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

True.

However, D&D didn't establish that it was a GRRM ending or not...which is something that they regularly did. They explicitly stated that Bran becoming the endgame King of All Westeros™ (and thereby, the ultimate winner in the game of thrones) was from GRRM (it was the last of the three WTF moments they talked about) and then they also explicitly stated that Arya killing the Night King and single-handedly ending the Long Night was an idea that they had personally conceived during the writing process for season 6.

Their lack of differentiating there makes me think that -- at some point -- King's Landing is completely destroyed and, after the problem with the Others, fAegon/Varys/Arianne/JonCon, Littlefinger, Euron, and Cersei is (mostly) resolved, Jon will be crowned with Daenerys as his queen consort...

BUT there will be a lot of bad blood between Dany, the Starks and Tyrion. There is going to be some sort of fallout between the heroes/survivors and Bran will assume control of the continent thereafter.

I think that the tempo and temperature of the fallout between the Big 6 that sees the kingship moved from Jon to Bran is just so wildly different between D&D's version and GRRM's version that they kept silent about it.

That said, I also don't think King's Landing will be destroyed by Daenerys...at least not like that; not at the very end of the series. I think it will be Euron or JonCon who will destroy the city: Euron by magic because he is a psycho who wants to use magic to try to turn himself into a god or JonCon by wildfire as part of a deranged attempt to spite his enemies...

I don’t think Martin would give up the ending that easily. If he made passive aggressive statements about the Jon/Dany ending that might constitute a spoiler. 

He only says that stuff about more minor things so for all we know you’re right. But I have a sinking suspicion that Jon regardless of what he does will come out looking heroic (if not tragic) and Dany no matter how it happens will be made into the villain. 
 

It just seems so obvious that the black and white slavers vs. dragons plot line is just used to make Dany look good because we’d be surprised when she turns out evil. 
 

Otherwise, what is the point of the slavery arc? I can’t think of any reason it’s in the books besides to give Dany a heroic framing (that will be subverted). 
 

Jon is way too entrenched in the tropes of a farm boy hero to be anything but a genuinely good person. He is lean, ostensibly attractive without actually being objectified, and a good/great fighter with a low social status and secret birth right. 
 

I think him NOT becoming king is as far as Martin’s subversions will go. Maybe he now thinks Jon is too much of a stereotype of the secret prince but not in 1996.

[SeanF]

35 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

I don’t think Martin would give up the ending that easily. If he made passive aggressive statements about the Jon/Dany ending that might constitute a spoiler. 

He only says that stuff about more minor things so for all we know you’re right. But I have a sinking suspicion that Jon regardless of what he does will come out looking heroic (if not tragic) and Dany no matter how it happens will be made into the villain. 
 

It just seems so obvious that the black and white slavers vs. dragons plot line is just used to make Dany look good because we’d be surprised when she turns out evil. 
 

Otherwise, what is the point of the slavery arc? I can’t think of any reason it’s in the books besides to give Dany a heroic framing (that will be subverted). 
 

Jon is way too entrenched in the tropes of a farm boy hero to be anything but a genuinely good person. He is lean, ostensibly attractive without actually being objectified, and a good/great fighter with a low social status and secret birth right. 
 

I think him NOT becoming king is as far as Martin’s subversions will go. Maybe he now thinks Jon is too much of a stereotype of the secret prince but not in 1996.

I see the slavery arc as mirroring the enslavement of the Dead.

The slavers are indeed pure evil, but so really are the Boltons, Freys, Brave Companions, Ser Gregor Clegane and his men etc.

Robb’s enemies are so vile, that it’s easy to overlook that his army is quite brutal.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Well, one big difference is that Jon came back exactly the same in the show, just with a man-bun. He’s going to become a darker character in the books post-resurrection. I think his relationship with Dany will probably be a dark one from the start, and her death will likely be framed as him killing her to save someone else (Arya, I’d wager).

To be honest, seeing all the people who hated S8 but ignored all the problems with S5-7 and are now ignoring all the problems with HOTD makes me think that most people were fibbing when they complained about the bad writing and were instead just upset that they didn’t get the ending they wanted. For all the self-important GOT bros who talked about how this wasn’t some Disney fairy tale (throwback to Lindsay Ellis: not fantasy for nerds but “hot fantasy that fucks”), in the end they wanted Jon to slay the monster and for him and Dany to rule all Westeros with their brood of incest babies. I expect we’ll see a similar backlash to Rhaenyra getting Sunfyre-d, although not to the same degree since anyone who wants to find out what happens to her can just read the Wiki.

[butterweedstrover]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I see the slavery arc as mirroring the enslavement of the Dead. 

In what way? Do you mean the unsullied are like the ice zombies? Or that the slaves are like the White Walkers? 

Either way, the connection seems tenuous at best and hardly justifies a plot arch stretching for (what is now) two entire books. 

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

The slavers are indeed pure evil, but so really are the Boltons, Freys, Brave Companions, Ser Gregor Clegane and his men etc.

Robb’s enemies are so vile, that it’s easy to overlook that his army is quite brutal.

Yeah, but those people are allied with factions that at least have a modicum of rationality. They are proxies for the Lannisters and are through association allied with the Tyrells. None of them are fighting a virtuous battle for justice and independence like Robb, but they aren't just symbols of death and destruction. 

In the end, the Tyrells/Lannisters are so much more powerful than their violent pawns that in retrospect they seem harmless since they'll have their collars yanked eventually for overstepping the line. 

The Slavers have no oversight and are just comically evil for no reason. They are grotesquely overweight and use they most ineffective forms of brutality imaginable to uphold their laziness (little marching their 'army' of underfed skeletons in shackles). 

They have literally nothing going for them and everyone is just rolling their eyes waiting for Dany to burn them.   

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Well, one big difference is that Jon came back exactly the same in the show, just with a man-bun. He’s going to become a darker character in the books post-resurrection.

Honestly, I have a hard time seeing how it will work in practice and I think it's one of the hardest parts of the book for GRRM to write. Wargs are supposed to gradually lose their humanity and become more like the animal they inhabit, and that's a tough nut to crack.

[The Bard of Banefort]

HOTD was nominated for three Critics Choice Awards: best drama, Matt Smith for supporting actor, and Milly Alcock for supporting actress. Surprisingly, Paddy Considine was not nominated, nor Emma or Olivia.

For all the Andor fans, rejoice: both the show and Diego Luna were nominated for awards. Usually the Star Wars/Marvel shows are overlooked.

https://tvline.com/2022/12/06/critics-choice-awards-nominations-2023-full-list-tv-nominees/amp/

Edited December 7, 2022 by The Bard of Banefort

[The Bard of Banefort]

45 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Honestly, I have a hard time seeing how it will work in practice and I think it's one of the hardest parts of the book for GRRM to write. Wargs are supposed to gradually lose their humanity and become more like the animal they inhabit, and that's a tough nut to crack.

Yeah, I’m curious how he’ll manage it. It definitely throws a bit of a wrench in the King in the North theory (how funny would it be if it turned out that the show made that up?) Then there’s the matter of Dany and Jon possibly having a child. It wouldn’t really make much sense for someone who was brought back from the dead to be able to procreate.

[BlackLightning]

On 12/6/2022 at 2:27 PM, SeanF said:

Jon’s murdering his own wife would be bleak.  If it happens, I expect it will be down to Tyrion’s sexual jealousy, which would give a somewhat similar ending to the show, but without attempting to whitewash the Imp.

I don't know if anyone remembers but in the original outline plan...

• there was supposed to have been a love triangle between Jon, Tyrion and Arya
• Bran was supposed to develop a hatred towards Jon

A lot of the ideas from the original outline were never discarded, only changed. Like for example:

1. Catelyn had gone back to Winterfell and had escaped the castle with her sons and their direwolves...only to be turned away at the Wall, killed by traitors and then being resurrected by the Others as some sort of vengeful ghost.
2. The Lannisters win the War of the Five Kings with a bunch of espionage, subterfuge, treachery and dumb luck...but not without destroying most of their own family members. Jaime, the big bad, was to be the last Lannister standing and the King of Westeros...up until Daenerys Targaryen shows back up.

Sound familiar?

The point I'm trying to make is that a lot of the original elements - no matter how crazy they are - have reappeared or been alluded to in some shape or form in the books.

The Jon/Tyrion/Arya love triangle that shows up might be one between Jon/Dany/Tyrion with Bran believing that Jon stole his crown or something.

Edited February 2, 2023 by BlackLightning

[BlackLightning]

On 12/6/2022 at 4:37 PM, butterweedstrover said:

In what way? Do you mean the unsullied are like the ice zombies? Or that the slaves are like the White Walkers? 

Either way, the connection seems tenuous at best and hardly justifies a plot arch stretching for (what is now) two entire books. 

I think he means that the slaves are like the wights and that the White Walkers are like the slavers.

The connection seems tenuous at best right now, but I think it will be made clear in this next book when we really get to see how the White Walkers are organized and how they originated.

On 12/6/2022 at 7:08 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Surprisingly, Paddy Considine was not nominated, nor Emma or Olivia.

Was Paddy Considine put forward? Was competition super stiff?

[DMC]

On 12/6/2022 at 4:50 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

To be honest, seeing all the people who hated S8 but ignored all the problems with S5-7 and are now ignoring all the problems with HOTD makes me think that most people were fibbing when they complained about the bad writing and were instead just upset that they didn’t get the ending they wanted.

Perhaps it's because I spent a lot of time talking about the show on this board as it aired, but I don't have that impression at all.  Seasons 5 through 7 were widely criticized, and I definitely recall many throughout the internet criticizing at least some of that, particularly season 5.  (I personally think Season 6 is considerably better than the other four last seasons, but that's neither here nor there.)  The reason season 8 gets outsized attention is because it's the end.  That'd happen with any show and is just human nature.

Anyway, I think HotD is clearly and significantly better than all four of those seasons.

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, DMC said:

Perhaps it's because I spent a lot of time talking about the show on this board as it aired, but I don't have that impression at all.  Seasons 5 through 7 were widely criticized, and I definitely recall many throughout the internet criticizing at least some of that, particularly season 5.  (I personally think Season 6 is considerably better than the other four last seasons, but that's neither here nor there.)  The reason season 8 gets outsized attention is because it's the end.  That'd happen with any show and is just human nature.

Anyway, I think HotD is clearly and significantly better than all four of those seasons.

Had the show had a satisfying ending, I expect that the decline in quality would have been forgiven by most viewers.  Parts of season 6 were silly, but that season did finish very strongly.  But Seasons 7 and 8 just doubled down on all the Show’s faults.

[DMC]

5 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Had the show had a satisfying ending, I expect that the decline in quality would have been forgiven by most viewers.

Yup.  BTW, forgot to mention, but what I stated above also includes my hu-man friends as well.  I know it's anecdotal, but pretty much everyone I talked with about the show were quite iffy after season 7 and before season 8.  And then...

As for season 6, it also had hold the door, which was a pretty great episode of television no matter how you feel about the changes.  Granted, season 5 also had Hardhome, but that just speaks to how bad the rest of that season was. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

12 hours ago, DMC said:

Perhaps it's because I spent a lot of time talking about the show on this board as it aired, but I don't have that impression at all.  Seasons 5 through 7 were widely criticized, and I definitely recall many throughout the internet criticizing at least some of that, particularly season 5.  (I personally think Season 6 is considerably better than the other four last seasons, but that's neither here nor there.)  The reason season 8 gets outsized attention is because it's the end.  That'd happen with any show and is just human nature.

Anyway, I think HotD is clearly and significantly better than all four of those seasons.

I agree that HOTD is much better than seasons 5-8.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I agree that HOTD is much better than seasons 5-8.

Unpopular opinion, but I do have a soft spot for Season 6 and consider the finale to be a great episode of television.

Edited December 10, 2022 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy