[Spoilers] Episode 110 Discussion

[chrisdaw]

12 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I think everyone knows that the description is Westeros' insulting perception of her. Basically, Mushroom draws a horrible picture of her by the standards of the time and the show goes with that. People act like that doesn't count, though.

Because they want to say she's a saint and perfect to complain about the Greens.

Will make it all the more fun when it all falls down.

[Minsc]

12 minutes ago, DMC said:

No.  Does Martin do anything to portray those actions as being horrible in the eyes of the readers?

So, I don't think having them balances out making Aegon a rapist that watches kiddie blood sports.

[C.T. Phipps]

24 minutes ago, Minsc said:

Does the show do anything to portray those actions as being horrible in eyes of the viewers?

I mean, on these forums, the sheer volume of people calling her a fool and incompetent for endangering her claim through her actions is without limit.

[C.T. Phipps]

9 minutes ago, Minsc said:

So, I don't think having them balances out making Aegon a rapist that watches kiddie blood sports.

Which, again, is the same as taking Mushroom's account as gospel for both of them.

Which we always knew they would because Game of Thrones is built on the shocking and lurid.

Martin is the one who made Aegon II a scumbag.

Edited October 24, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[DMC]

7 minutes ago, Minsc said:

So, I don't think having them balances out making Aegon a rapist that watches kiddie blood sports.

First, never said it did.  Second, Aegon watching kiddie blood sports while being pleasured by a young girl is Mushroom's account in the books.

[Minsc]

3 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I mean, on these forums, the sheer volume of people calling her a fool and incompetent for endangering her claim through her actions is without limit.

There is a difference between making someone foolish and making another a monster.  

2 minutes ago, DMC said:

Second, Aegon watching kiddie blood sports while being pleasured by a young girl is Mushroom's account in the books.

Mushroom shouldn't be taken as the reliable source on what Aegon was doing when he wasn't even in the same city as him at the time.

[DMC]

4 minutes ago, Minsc said:

Mushroom shouldn't be taken as the reliable source on what Aegon was doing when he wasn't even in the same city as him at the time.

K.  Don't really get your point here.  As I said, Mushroom's worst details about Rhaenyra's sex life aren't "bad" to a modern reader or viewer, or at least I don't think they should be.  Aegon's are.  So what's your complaint exactly?

[Minsc]

1 minute ago, DMC said:

K.  Don't really get your point here.  As I said, Mushroom's worst details about Rhaenyra's sex life aren't "bad" to a modern reader or viewer, or at least I don't think they should be.  Aegon's are.  So what's your complaint exactly?

I saying don't use Mushroom's obviously unreliable account for Aegon.  He still be a shitty individual without making him a rapist and such which just makes him completely unsympathetic. 

[C.T. Phipps]

2 minutes ago, Minsc said:

I saying don't use Mushroom's obviously unreliable account for Aegon.  He still be a shitty individual without making him a rapist and such which just makes him completely unsympathetic. 

Aegon II has always been completely unsympathetic. It was Helena, her children, and Daeron who were sympathetic on the Greens. Fuck, Aemond is a war criminal even by Westerosi standards and he's more sympathetic than the way Aegon II was.

I'm confused at the idea the show should go out and make him sympathetic when he was never written as anything remotely resembling it.

 

Edited October 24, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[C.T. Phipps]

Vhagar: YAY, VISENYA! WE FINALLY CONQUERED DORNE!

Aemond: What?

Vhagar: When did you lose an eye and when did they get dragons?

 

Edited October 24, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[BlackLightning]

Just now, Minsc said:

I saying don't use Mushroom's obviously unreliable account for Aegon.  He still be a shitty individual without making him a rapist and such which just makes him completely unsympathetic. 

Call me weird but, logically speaking, I think you can be a rapist and still be sympathetic at the same time.

Just like you can be a murderer who is also sympathetic.

Two things can be true at once.

[Minsc]

Just now, C.T. Phipps said:

I'm confused at the idea the show should go out and make him sympathetic when he was never written as anything remotely resembling it.

Not making him a rapist that watches kiddie blood sports doesn't make him sympathetic.  Just like not having Rhaenyra sell Alicent and Haleana to a brothel to be raped wouldn't be making her more sympathetic.  Neither story felt like that Mushroom wasn't just making shit up in the text.

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, Minsc said:

He still be a shitty individual without making him a rapist and such which just makes him completely unsympathetic.

Even Munkun says Aegon was "at his revels," which is clearly is the highly suggestive nice way of saying he was doing very unseemly things.

[Minsc]

2 minutes ago, DMC said:

Even Munkun says Aegon was "at his revels," which is clearly is the highly suggestive nice way of saying he was doing very unseemly things.

Just have it so he is in a whore house getting drunk

[DMC]

4 minutes ago, Minsc said:

Just have it so he is in a whore house getting drunk

If that's all it was you'd think Munkun would say so.  Hell, other than the woman being high born, that's pretty much Eustace's account.

[C.T. Phipps]

1 minute ago, DMC said:

If that's all it was you'd think Munkun would say so.  Hell, other than the woman being high born, that's pretty much Eustace's account.

It's actually telling that none of the accounts actually disagree with Mushroom's account. They just give a weak defense that he was with a "proper" mistress rather than a child.

Which is about the only time everyone agrees in the story, so Aegon must have been a royal piece of crap.

Mallory/Alicent: You were with a 12 year old prostitute when your father died!?

Archer/Aegon: She was fifteen and a merchant's daughter!

Mallory/Alicent: I suppose you think that's better!

Archer/Aegon: I dunno, isn't it?

Edited October 24, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[ShadowKitteh]

3 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

That doesn't make any sense. Nothing indicates he's sleeping with Helaena 

Makes complete sense in the show:

• Aegon confesses to Aemond in Ep 7 at Laena’s funeral that he has no interest in Helaena whatsoever, and Aemond responds he’d happily do his duty if he was the one who’d been betrothed to her.
• What she says about Aegon in her toast to Baela and Rhaena at the dinner in Ep 8, regarding marriage, “Mostly he just ignores you… except when he’s really drunk.” Sounds like a straight up confession how there’s little to no chance they’ve ever had sex.
• Her reaction to Otto asking her, “He’s not in his rooms?” in Ep 9 and-
• The way she and Aemond look at each other when he walks into that room in the same scene after Otto’s exit.

It also makes complete sense for his reaction after he realizes just how much damage he’s done and the ramifications going forward of hanging onto his animosity towards Luc at the end of Ep 10.

I would LOVE it if that’s the direction the show is going.

Edited October 24, 2022 by ShadowKitteh

[GeorgeIAF]

I always thought that Aemond is an idiot for starting the war and killing Luke for a squabble about his missing eye. I thought that starting a war when Rhaenyra was ready to negotiate was an idiotic thing to do. I really like that in the show it as all by accident and not controlling his dragon, this is a very good change in my opinion !

[C.T. Phipps]

Overall, I've had my issues with the season. I've felt the time-jumps have absolutely killed the pacing, that some of the plot twists were unnecessary (like Viserys' delirium being misinterpreted or Criston Cole not getting any punishment for multiple murders), Alicent's characterization has been all over the place, and way too many deleted scenes. They cut away a lot of scenes that deserved to be in the story. Still, I think we've finally reached a point where actions can be properly followed up on.

[jjcha314]

3 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

It’s moments like these, Vhagar going rogue and the weird Daemon-Vermithor scene, that I wish GRRM had made his dragons speak like Tolkien. 

On that weird Daemon-Vermithor scene, what are we supposed to take away from that? 

I'm familiar with what happens with Hugh Hammer down the line, but not clear to me if the HOTD scene is connected to that.