[Poll] How would you rate episode 108?

[Ran]

What'd you think?

[Baelora Vanys]

Im a big fan of asoiaf, etc etc but this episode was just great tv. All for it! 

[Ser Not Appearing]

This episode was great ... with a pretty big blah in letting Alicent off the hook as an usurper. Dragging the prophecy line and the dagger through this show has always been a bit awkward and now I know why they chose to do it and now I hate it. It's not enough to really drag the episode down to bad overall but, for me, that narrative choice is quite distasteful. Thanks, I hate it. I mean, it fundamentally undercuts the importance of everything else we just witnessed over 7+ episodes. Just crap, cowardly storytelling. Pick motivations, build on them and own it. This was a cop-out from hell.

With that said, Viserys went out strong. He was such a likeable guy in a show devoid of any levity or likeable people and the acting / makeup / CGI was superb this episode. His frailty and pain and personal fortitude was spot on. It's sad that it's something of a trope how the best, most empathetic people sometimes make the worst impact but I think they did a really good job of building on that theme and demonstrating it through these episodes. It's perhaps one of the few things they really built out beyond moments of conflict that we must assume simmered and crystallized over each time jump. I honestly loved the way this episode finished his arc. It's a highlight of the show and storytelling so far (minus the BS Aegon confusion).

Arryk and Erryk being introduced right before they matter with no character development (something this show sorely lacks due to time jumps and how they handled buildup and backstory for the war) is par for the course. Hopefully they get more than that passing mention.

They did maybe too much to ensure we know Aemond is a badass, and the choice to cast the young "Strongs" as shorter softies stands out a bit much for me. The younger one seems 13. Just a bit of overkill for me. I think they could have been more subtle but that's not what they chose to do so it's ... fine. We know he's a badass and the Strongs are not and here we are.

Right now, I feel like it's a 9 for largely nailing the end of the Viserys arc but I'll probably settle in around an 8 or a 7 once I brood more on the Aegon confusion nonsense.

 

 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Ser Not Appearing

[The hairy bear]

A really good one, IMO. It's an 8.

 

[Ser Graymax]

An easy 8 plus all thanks to the King.

All the Greens are such shits.  Still cant like anybody but those guys really are the worse.  Hoping for a quick and painful death for them all.  (Only to page 240 in the book)

The King made 8 episodes, a big surprise.

Moon tea and milk of the Poppy should be in the credits.

Lesson:  Yes!!!  Dont run your mouth about family in front of Daemon.  Best kill of the series so far.

[lakin1013]

8.  I thought this episode was terrific and I am a low grader.  How do I know that?  I was sitting on the floor, leaning in, and replaying each conversation, if muffled, to make sure I heard it clearly.  Viserys in his decline was wonderfully acted.  So much information was given to us: Rh and her self-reflection, Rhaenys deciding on what argument to make, Daemon given to quicksilver actions, and Viserys trying to make sure he said what was important in his heart before his death.  What a good episode.

[C.T. Phipps]

HOUSE OF THE DRAGON 1x08 "THE LORD OF THE TIDES" is one of the biggest episodes in the series and it's interesting because it is one of the quieter ones. While there's yet another unnecessary time skip, it carries over from the previous episode's development so I'm able to ignore it.

It is a powerful episode with a lot of character development as well as culmination of several important plot arcs. I wouldn't say it's my favorite of the episodes but it is strong enough that I am going to say the show has bounced back from several issues it had previously been suffering due to the constant barrelling forward without pausing to analyze previous characterization.

The premise is Ser Vaemond Velaryon, brother of Corlys, is making a play to become Lord of Driftmark. Corlys has gotten himself severely injured fighting in the Stepstones and this is understandable since the guy has to be, in-universe, in his sixties at the very least. Vaemond also has the point that the official heirs of Driftmark are, in fact, Rhaenyra's bastards with no Velaryon blood in their veins. It should be noted by my pendantic Westerosi scholar heart, though, that he's still not the heir but Daemon's daughters as female children come before uncles in the Andal tradition.

Ser Vaemond has an ace in the hole to forward his claim because he is going to be taking it before Ser Otto Hightower as he's acting as regent for the dying bedridden King Viserys. Given Otto wants more than anything to disinherit Rhaenyra and her heirs, it seems like a slam dunk. Unfortunately, for Otto, Rhaenyra is warned about his treacherous plan and heads to King's Landing where the Hightowers are hiding behind religion as well as have attempted to remove all of her supporters.

Alicent also has an interesting balance between being her darker ruthless side with her nicer more mothering side. Some of the things she does are unforgivable like the fact she covers up for her son's rape in what I'm sure is meant to be an invocation of several other mothers doing the same for afluent white kids in today's society. She also attempts to reconcile with Rhaenyra after one last tragic plea by Viserys before it is all ruined by a misunderstanding.

Speaking of Viserys, Paddy Considine is the MVP of the episode with his best performance yet. He really deserves a Emmy nod if not the actual award. Using the very last of his life, he manages to thwart the Hightower's attempt to seize power. He may not have been a good king but he was a good man (ignoring the whole killing his wife during childbirth thing). He finally dies at the end of the episode but it was after his best act of kingsmanship.

I also have to give credit for the establishing of the stakes between the sons of Alicent Hightower with the sons of Rhaenyra. Some people complain about the fact that the Blacks are being shown to be superior morally while the Greens are shown to be monsters. You know? I have no problem with that whatsoever. The Greens were scum in the books and the Blacks were far more likable, the show is just following suit.

I do have an issue with the fact that Viserys' last words seem to be what gets Alicent to decide on betraying Rhaenyra to crown her son. But not much of an issue as I don't think that she would have honored Viserys' wishes anyway. She's spent twenty years grasping for power and trying to think she was justified in the process. People make too much of the misunderstanding when Alicent clearly was ignoring he was out of his mind. All she wanted was some sort of sign that he wanted Aegon to be on the throne and would have interpreted anything her way (which she did).

In conclusion, solid episode and I am very excited for next week.

[DMC]

6 hours ago, lakin1013 said:

I thought this episode was terrific and I am a low grader.  How do I know that?  I was sitting on the floor, leaning in, and replaying each conversation, if muffled, to make sure I heard it clearly.

Yeah a few episodes in I broke down and now I just watch the episodes with the closed captioning on.  Saves time.

[RhaenysBee]

This broke me. I can always nitpick, but it doesn’t matter when something has me crying four times. I hope Paddy Considine gets every award known to mankind for this. 

Highlights:
Viserys enters the throne room. 
Viserys climbs the Iron Throne. 
Daemon helps him up and hands him the crown. 
Rhaenys’s choice 
Viserys’s toast at the supper 
Viserys removes mask 
Rhaenyra’s toast
Daemon stares down Aemond

I gave it a 10 because the pathos swept me off my feet to the point where logic and details no longer reach me. I will nitpick a bit in the other thread, just for the heck of it. 

[Ser Yorick Ampersand]

This show has the worse aging continuity. It's so ridiculous specially when they make a long hard point about aging the children and the king.

Aegon's new actor looks younger than the previous one lol wtf happened

Random black people continue to pop up all around. Racial propaganda is just going to go worse. They put black identitary  propaganda in front of show internal consistency and continuity.

Vaemond's death was 10x cooler in the books and made actual sense. We are owed 5 tongue removals by Viserys orders too.

I'm so sick of the stupid prophecy that has no meaning. This is just insulting to anyone with half a brain. Don't start me on the stupid dagger either.

So are we to take that Alicent's motivation now are Viserys last words? A misunderstanding? Fuck off show

Edited October 10, 2022 by Ser Yorick Ampersand

[Corvinus85]

5 minutes ago, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

Random black people continue to pop up all around. Racial propaganda is just going to go worse. They put black identitary  propaganda in front of show internal consistency and continuity.

Which random black people have popped up?

[DMC]

4 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Which random black people have popped up?

I'm guessing Orwyle?

[Corvinus85]

25 minutes ago, DMC said:

I'm guessing Orwyle?

Orwyle was quietly introduced in episode 5, and after the big time jump we see him as Grand Maester in episode 6. So he didn't pop up in this episode. While Orwyle is likely white in book canon, we don't really know much about him.

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Orwyle was quietly introduced in episode 5, and after the big time jump we see him as Grand Maester in episode 6.

I'm aware, just taking a guess on who he was referring to.

[Caligula_K3]

I give it a 5. The first half forty minutes of this episode was basically everything about this show that doesn't work dialed up to 11: a massive time jump, during which significant character and plot development happened, including an off-screen serious injury to a major character. Mountains upon mountains of exposition. Constant politicking in the most self-serious way. A character who's barely had any screen time or development (Vaemond) suddenly becoming important and then dying. An over the top violent death in a place where there shouldn't be violence which is then just awkwardly shunted to the side.

The last twenty minutes saved it, thanks to Viserys, whose final moments were moving. I was also moved by the Alicent and Rhaenyra speeches at the feast. When the show does take its time to develop characters and relationships, as it did with those three, it can produce great drama. But it still refuses to do the same for anyone else.

One thing I really didn't like: the Aegon rape. Aegon is the only current character who isn't deathly overly serious. He's going to be a villain, sure, but could he at least have remained a fun and slightly complex one?

I'm also not so sure on the recastings. More time will tell, but the Aegon actor seemed like a serious downgrade, and Aemond just seemed out of place.

I'm at least grateful the time skips are (hopefully?) over. Maybe now the real show can begin.

[RhaenysBee]

So after sleeping on the emotional impact the episode was realistically an 8, because the ridiculous casting continuity drags it down. At this point I really want someone… say Aemond… to slice Criston Cole in half. Just to see if that ages him. 

And the costumes. Goodness I hate the female costumes with passion. Even game of thrones made a joke of them after a while, but at least there was consistency in the beginning and even late GoT costumes had a more flattering shape than these atrocities. It’s a small thing, but it can make a difference. (That said HoTD at least has the grace to not use printed gold leaf fabric, so they still get the props)

Im not sure if they played the Velaryon theme as irony when Vaemond walked in, because there was a clear contrast between the Laenor wedding scene and this one. So I want to believe it was at least half ironic to emphasize that contrast. 

 

 

 

 

[TormundsWoman]

On 10/10/2022 at 1:17 PM, C.T. Phipps said:

But not much of an issue as I don't think that she would have honored Viserys' wishes anyway. She's spent twenty years grasping for power and trying to think she was justified in the process. People make too much of the misunderstanding when Alicent clearly was ignoring he was out of his mind. All she wanted was some sort of sign that he wanted Aegon to be on the throne and would have interpreted anything her way (which she did).

In conclusion, solid episode and I am very excited for next week.

My own thoughts CT! Well written review. I also think there's little that this misunderstanding actually changed. It was clear from the dinner table finale that even if Alicent might have reconsidered, and looked for a reconciliation and renunciation to the throne, Aegon, Aemond and Otto would not have done so and would not have stopped. That's the problem when you raise your kids in a toxic environment and with hatred toward something. Eventually you can no longer control that. It has become something that's difficult or impossible to reverse.

As for myself, I gave it an 8. It was a very good ep actually. It had a compelling drama, outstanding acting by Paddy Considine and Wil Johnson with excellent material for their characters of which they took full advantage of, and the direction and cinematography was some of the best of the series especially at the family dinner scene.

The most weird thing happens though when you get this excellent storytelling and then you sense them trying to connect the dots with GoT and ASoIaF prophecy. To my eyes and ears it sticks out, feels out of place and out of context with the story. I understand that behind the scenes it's something Martin approved. I do.

There is though the problem that once you make something in entertainment and arts, once you put it out there for people to enjoy, analyze, judge, unless you conveyed what you wanted in the work properly and seamlessly, you can hardly modify it afterwords without sticking out as sore thumb. And unfortunately for me, as a reader of ASoIaF, this sounds completely like retcon. Granted, Eustace, Mushroom, Munkun or any other Westerosi had no idea about this specific prophecy passing through Viserys and to Rhaenyra because they were never in the room where it happened so it would never appear in any fake history I read. But to me, it sounds and  feels like trying too hard. And unfortunately art IS in part about perception, feeling and what you understand from the work you are watching, reading etc.

Also wonderful gruesome death for Vaemond. Died like a badass yelling the truth because he chose his hill to die on and stuck to it. True, he was an asshole to discount Baela but this is a story where a badass truth sayer can also be an asshole at the same time. He also was not telling quite the pure truth. This was not ONLY about managing his own house, as he yells at Viserys or he wouldn't have practically pledged his power to the Hightowers to back Aegon's claim to the throne. This unfortunately was about much more.

I have the feeling Rhaenys would have advocated for her granddaughter though, a true born Valeryon not for herself as heir to Driftmark if it came to that. But she couldn't say that to Rhaenyra as that would put Baela in the hot spot.

Edited October 12, 2022 by TormundsWoman

[Cashless Society]

Wow, for the 4th episode in a row, they've crafted a damn near perfect episode only to be marked down by some weird creative choices in writing and/or execution.

Lots of parallels and callbacks were present in this episode. Starting with the opening shot pushing in and panning overhead the Driftwood Throne and then cuts to a close-up of Rhaenys. It makes her look smaller and isolated, as if her will to live has faded significantly. Which makes sense given that she's buried both her children. Contrast this with Otto by the Iron Throne where the image is reversed. Overhead pan, to pull out shot and finally, a wide shot of him on the throne. It highlights how far he's come and how close he is to achieving his goal. The things people get up to when the proper authorities are incapacitated and can't seat their thrones.

I loved the shot of Alicent in the small council that was made to look like she was in a prison, with the acts of her chosen heir conflicting with her new found guidance in religion. Love is the death of duty, as maester Aemon says? Or is it duty is the death of duty, as Jaime implies? The shot also harkens back to a similar shot of Viserys in the small council meeting in the pilot episode. Although for him, it's trying to please everyone one, naming Rhaenyra as heir that puts him in his metaphorical prison. 

Then there's Daemon and Aemond. Him collecting the dragon eggs and followed by his giddiness has quite a few similarities to Aemond claiming Vhagar, which is appreciated. Someone complained about the duel between the two of them being unsatisfactory as there wasn't a narrative arc that preludes the event. But this is where the show can really improve upon the source being doing visual parallels and contrasts to each character. They already look alike, Deamon is a leaner while Aemond has proper posture, the aforementioned dragon claiming/egg collecting scenes, Daemon was super cocky in his tourney melee with Criston (he actually attacks to Criston head on), while Aemond was super focused on outsmarting Criston (using the momentum of the flail and attacking on Criston on the weaker side) and he cares nought about tourneys, Daemon overtly antagonising Otto during the small council meeting, Aemond antagonising his nephews through the thinnest veneer of a compliment possible. I look forward to seeing what else they can come up with in future episodes.

Quote

Tomorrow the Hightower's land their first blow. They force you to your knees, and I must stand alone. 

So Rhaenys basically tells Rhaenyra that the marriage proposal is pointless as the Hightower's will side with Vaemond anyway, which can only happen if Rhaenyra's children are declared bastards. Rhaenyra heeds her prediction and convinces Viserys to make a now rare appearance. I get the feeling that Rhaenys sides with Rhaenyra because she sees that Rhaenyra understood her words and was able to act by foiling the Hightower's plans. A sign of improvement in Rhaenys' eyes given the lack of tact Rhaenyra displayed when she tried to school Rhaenyra on The Order of Things.

Viserys' grand entrance was the most comical thing this show has ever put to screen. But it was magnificent. The choice to have grandly bombastic yet sweetly poignant music blasting through the scene as Viserys struggles to walk across the throne room sent me through a wave of emotions. Give Paddy, Ramin and the sound mixers all the Emmy's. And Daemon helping his brother up the throne steps and putting the crown on his brother's head with Viserys look up at Daemon with such gratitude? That's the best shot of this entire franchise, i highly doubt anything is going to top it.

That shot of Rhaenys with the candles in the back, is the show suggesting that she will be the one to feed Vaemond to her dragon? I really wanted to see Rhaenyra do that. Another fight breaks out while the royal family has dinner, at least no one was injured this time. And the knights who came to put a stop to this where Targaryen household guards, not the forever useless KG. Are we sure that Meryn Trant and Boros Blount aren't members of the KG at this point in history?

While the acting during the petition scene was well done, I really loved that they opted to act like it was a stage play, why the hell did they use shallow depth of field? You've got all the actors in the same scene, you've got blocked the scene really well, you've got everybody delivering a great performance, you've got the camera positioned to capture all of this, but you use a lense where only one person at a time can be seen clearly? Instead of frequently cutting back and forth between the actors for reaction shots, just use the deep focus lense so we can see their reactions while the primary actor is speaking. Bad form Geeta, bad form on this scene.

I haven't liked how much the show has been leaning into the Long Night prophecy that just reminds of how badly GoT botched everything up, but I could have forgiven all of that if they properly executed Alicent's mix-up. If Alicent had gotten the idea to consider Aegon as the rightful heir based on the conversation she had with Viserys in episode 3, became more convinced of the idea when Rhaenyra deceives her, gets Otto fired and proclaims her bastard children as true-born sons and this mix-up sealing the deal, I would have thought it brilliant. But instead Rhaenyra and Alicent genuinely kiss and make up instead of it being just pretend for Viserys' sake, and then have her slip back into usurper mode based on the mix-up was just cheap storytelling. The writers can do better than this.

I gave it an 8/10.

[Cashless Society]

23 hours ago, RhaenysBee said:

And the costumes. Goodness I hate the female costumes with passion. Even game of thrones made a joke of them after a while, but at least there was consistency in the beginning and even late GoT costumes had a more flattering shape than these atrocities. It’s a small thing, but it can make a difference. (That said HoTD at least has the grace to not use printed gold leaf fabric, so they still get the props)

The new costume designer favours practicality and actor movement above everything else. So usually her designs aren't going to blow you away and thing might look ill fitting, but at least the actors will be comfortable.

[RhaenysBee]

1 hour ago, Cashless Society said:

The new costume designer favours practicality and actor movement above everything else. So usually her designs aren't going to blow you away and thing might look ill fitting, but at least the actors will be comfortable.

The designs don’t need to blow me away. There are certain scenes when the purpose of the gown is not practicality but beauty and impact (like a coronation or a wedding scene). Then, sure, the gowns may (not must) be designed to blow us away.

A costume should be an outfit that a real person (the character) would realistically wear in the fictional world they live in. It should be practical for the climate of the location, the lifestyle of the character, it should reflect region  and class, the fictional fashion trend of the time. This ties directly into practicality and the comfort of the person wearing them, so making the actor comfortable isn’t a goal that contradicts dressing the character in the right way. These are different roads running in the same direction and should be merged in the costume. Which should be well fitting as custom tailoring is the only type of tailoring in a medieval world and film production. Ill-fitting garments are rarely comfortable unless they are a potato sack.