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The Targaryens and the wrongs done to them.


Daenerysthegreat

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On 10/11/2022 at 5:37 PM, King_Hodor_the_Short said:

Why would you assume they would know of this supposed Aegon prophecy let alone be able to stop the Others. Their dragons are lone dead

 

You know... bcuz of the sekrit message on the One Ring Aegon's dagger that can only be revealed by flame.  The ancient prophecy that was just retconned in to the story, where the Targeryen's are secretly guardians of the flame imperishable light bringer and have to be around and in charge with their fire lizards for when the long night comes.

 

Maybe we need a new "show spoilers" update now that there is a new show that can be used to pollute these discussions with ridiculous fan fiction.

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I wholeheartedly agree with the above.

How on earth is Jaime supposed to know about some dubious 'only the Targaryens can save the world' prophecy when such a prophecy was only retroactively retconned into existence and the Targaryens themselves that were around at the time, aside from Rhaegar (who likely didn't confide in Jaime about it), don't seem to have known about the prophecy? 

And even if he did, why is he just supposed to stand aside and let Aerys kill half a million innocents, given that such an action would also kill all the Targaryen 'saviours' anyway?

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1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

why is he just supposed to stand aside and let Aerys kill half a million innocents, given that such an action would also kill all the Targaryen 'saviours' anyway

No one said he should have stood aside and did nothing. Looking back, the situation was very critical and time draining then. 
 

instead of killing Aerys he could have just incapacitated him or smth, that’s simpler, doesn’t break any vows, and he also saves the city.

Actually he saved the city when he the hand of a fortnight, Aerys alone wasn’t going to execute the plan. 

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On 10/11/2022 at 7:41 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

Really? When the Others come and the Targaryen's aren't there to stop them potentially cause of Jamie's actions. Would the lives of a million, outweigh the lives of Westeros and Essos? The best thing, is a stretch of opinion based on one stance not looking the other direction for oncoming threats. 

AERYS: "What is the life of a few Starks and Hollards against the raw power to defend the kingdom?"

GRRM: "Everything."

 

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10 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

AERYS: "What is the life of a few Starks and Hollards against the raw power to defend the kingdom?"

GRRM: "Everything."

 

The question that Aerys would have never asked, since he didn't care for the kingdom and it's extremely unlikely that he knew or believed in the Others' existence. 

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1 minute ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

The question that Aerys would have never asked, since he didn't care for the kingdom and it's extremely unlikely that he knew or believed in the Others' existence. 

Yes, I know. I was just cheekily pointing out that GRRM has already raised this argument from the viewpoint of Stannis, and shot it down with Davis' heartfelt humanism.

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42 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

No one said he should have stood aside and did nothing. Looking back, the situation was very critical and time draining then. 
 

instead of killing Aerys he could have just incapacitated him or smth, that’s simpler, doesn’t break any vows, and he also saves the city.

Actually he saved the city when he the hand of a fortnight, Aerys alone wasn’t going to execute the plan. 

He can't really just remove Aerys without breaking some sort of oath. Aerys would order him to stop and he wouldn't so then he'd be violating his oath to obey the king. Also Aerys could just order more/other people to light the wildfire. He's not going to surrender peacefully. And no matter what Jaime does the rebels would probably have killed him anyway. There's no way to really save Aerys long term.

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27 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

He can't really just remove Aerys without breaking some sort of oath. Aerys would order him to stop and he wouldn't so then he'd be violating his oath to obey the king. Also Aerys could just order more/other people to light the wildfire. He's not going to surrender peacefully. And no matter what Jaime does the rebels would probably have killed him anyway. There's no way to really save Aerys long term.

Yeah, GRRM tends to give characters he respects in some way a bunch of impossible decisions to explore how they deal with them and their consequences. It's a way to explore the gray areas of morality. With villains like Aerys, they make the worst possible decisions with whatever power they have. Their shade of gray is so dark as to basically be black.

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52 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

He can't really just remove Aerys without breaking some sort of oath. Aerys would order him to stop and he wouldn't so then he'd be violating his oath to obey the king. Also Aerys could just order more/other people to light the wildfire. He's not going to surrender peacefully. And no matter what Jaime does the rebels would probably have killed him anyway. There's no way to really save Aerys long term.

Incapacitate- like knock him out with a punch or smth. The Lannister army was already inside the red keep.

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14 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I'm fairly sure that would be breaking his oath...

Not as much as killing his king

 

10 hours ago, Nathan Stark said:

Not to mention that Jaime would be fully aware of the fates of the Duskendale families, who incapacitated Aerys.

the situation is different, the Lannister forces are literally seconds away from the throne room. Even if they kill Aerys, his blood won’t be on jaime’s hands

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36 minutes ago, Daenerysthegreat said:

Not as much as killing his king

But either way he breaks his oath. So there is really no way for him to do anything without breaking his oath other than letting himself and everyone else in KL including Aerys die. In which case he also breaks his oath. So he cannot not break his oath.

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Sigh. He broke his oath, but also did a rightly thing (saving thousands in the city). I believe, as someone already said, that GRRM putsJaime in that extremely fragile position where he had to choose. 

Stannis is more to the point: Davos did a rightly thing (at least for his own wellbeing) but he is also a smuggler so he chops his fingers in punishment.

But the key of this situation my be this: If Jaime Lannister waited for Stark to come with his army into the throne hall he again, by oath, had to prevent the rebels from taking the monarch, so for Jaime was an all lose-lose situation. He did broke his kingsguard oath.  But killing Aerys was the best choice he could have made, considering his particular character: better be a kingslayer than die protecting him or surrendering his sword to Eddard Stark (and we know he is very arrogant and proud).

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