The Economics of Warfare

[Aldarion]

6 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said:

The lore say otherwise. Jorah says that Dothraki shortbows outrange anything that westerosi might have even if it doesn't make much sense physics wise. 

And legion wasn't really a counter to phalanx. 

And Jon Connington, who unlike Jorah a) has combat experience in both Westeros and Essos and b) is not a lovestruck fool, clearly states that Westerosi longbows outrange Essosi short bows:

Quote

A third of Balaq’s men used crossbows, another third the double-curved horn-and-sinew bows
of the east. Better than these were the big yew long-bows borne by the archers of Westerosi blood, and
best of all were the great bows of goldenheart treasured by Black Balaq himself and his fifty Summer
Islanders. Only a dragonbone bow could outrange one made of goldenheart.
 

Jorah is an idiot.

[Loose Bolt]

Westerosi armors seem to have huge quality problems. For instance at battle in Whispering Wood Jaime somehow killed Karstark brothers with sword which should have been very unlikely. Naturally assuming those brothers owned high quality plate armors and had even some training how to use their own weapons. Besides sword should be very poor choice as main weapon if one is fighting against anyone wearing plate armor.

[Aldarion]

9 minutes ago, Loose Bolt said:

Westerosi armors seem to have huge quality problems. For instance at battle in Whispering Wood Jaime somehow killed Karstark brothers with sword which should have been very unlikely. Naturally assuming those brothers owned high quality plate armors and had even some training how to use their own weapons. Besides sword should be very poor choice as main weapon if one is fighting against anyone wearing plate armor.

In reality, sword was one of weapons regularly used against plate armor. To be sure, it was a backup weapon - a sidearm - but it was used, and was in fact one of better choices (only spears and specialized armor-piercing weapons such as warhammers would have been a better choice). You can see as much from manuals.

https://chestnut-ah.livejournal.com/784120.html

https://www.schlachtschule.org/pictures/GrSwFrontPg.jpg

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-cdfa0716c1f87e7d043300689be6650e-lq

Sword as a weapon was certainly far better against plate armor than bows were.

Of course, there is always the possibility of Martin being clueless, but... as I said, unless there was literally a line of "and stabbed him through the chest plate" in the text, you cannot just assume that armor is garbage.

[Lord Varys]

16 hours ago, Nevets said:

Dany is going to have to run her supply lines across the Narrow Sea, and hopefully not all the way from Volantis.  She is also going to have to move her army across the sea as well.  You can cram lots of troops on a ship; horses are likely another matter as they take up a lot of space.  And we know the Dothraki don't like the sea.  Arriving without mounts won't help.

And the Westerosi will be defending their homes and livelihoods.  I wouldn't bet against them.

Daenerys doesn't have to conquer a continent that belongs to her family already. She will just have to take the Iron Throne. Which should be rather easy since it happens to be in coastal city.

Most people will fall in line once that is accomplished. She is the one with the dragon(s).

This is not going to be a war of conquest, but a war to restore the rightful monarch to her throne. Assuming it will be something else is like framing the rise restoration of Edward IV at the end of the Wars of the Roses or the depositions of Edward II and Richard II as 'a conquest'. That just isn't the case. Daenerys can count on considerable or even overwhelming support from lots of Westerosi.

[Rondo]

On 10/22/2022 at 11:40 AM, Loose Bolt said:

Westerosi armors seem to have huge quality problems. For instance at battle in Whispering Wood Jaime somehow killed Karstark brothers with sword which should have been very unlikely. Naturally assuming those brothers owned high quality plate armors and had even some training how to use their own weapons. Besides sword should be very poor choice as main weapon if one is fighting against anyone wearing plate armor.

Steel of the time had major quality issues.  The more affluent families like the Lannisters could afford the finest materials of the time but the typical fighting man would have difficulty putting together a top quality kit.  The foot soldiers will be largely unprotected.  They will have bits and pieces of armor but not necessarily a complete set.  

[Aldarion]

6 minutes ago, Rondo said:

Steel of the time had major quality issues.  The more affluent families like the Lannisters could afford the finest materials of the time but the typical fighting man would have difficulty putting together a top quality kit.  The foot soldiers will be largely unprotected.  They will have bits and pieces of armor but not necessarily a complete set.  

Not really. Northern footmen have mail. Historically, foot soldiers in 15th century often wore armor like this:

https://fantasyview.files.wordpress.com/2020/05/2bb3920d3e8df9d0d257453f1c17ff5d.jpg

Granted, these are soldiers of the Black Army, but other soldiers were also similarly equipped:

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/2b/4f/e5/2b4fe52221b0362a6a187d0723e00d9d--medieval-town-medieval-art.jpg

[Loose Bolt]

17 minutes ago, Rondo said:

Steel of the time had major quality issues.  The more affluent families like the Lannisters could afford the finest materials of the time but the typical fighting man would have difficulty putting together a top quality kit.  The foot soldiers will be largely unprotected.  They will have bits and pieces of armor but not necessarily a complete set.  

But Karstarks rule huge area and their lord came to Winterfell with as many cavalry and infantry men that were available in Finland year 1500 and they could still rise couple more small armies when all those men mentioned above had already marched south with Robb. So I assume that Eddard and Torrhen Karstark could afford and were wearing high quality plate armors.

[Tygett Lannister]

On 10/22/2022 at 4:36 PM, Aldarion said:

And Jon Connington, who unlike Jorah a) has combat experience in both Westeros and Essos and b) is not a lovestruck fool, clearly states that Westerosi longbows outrange Essosi short bows:

Jorah is an idiot.

This doesn't really prove much. Saying the men a Westerosi doesn't mean they use westerosi weapons, considering company existed for decades a lot of them probably never seen Westeros. If you are exiled mercenary you probably can't make longbows as it is a complicated craft. The quote is just comparing quality of different bows from Essos with slight possibility that longbows might be westerosi design. Also it says longbows were better, not longer ranged than the shortbows. Range is not everything. For example crossbows of West in real life had shorter range but higher penetration power due to a heavy bolt.

I will take an exact quote that Dothraki shortbows outrange what Westerosi have from someone that actually lived in Westeros and with Dothraki over what you gave.

[Aldarion]

2 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said:

This doesn't really prove much. Saying the men a Westerosi doesn't mean they use westerosi weapons, considering company existed for decades a lot of them probably never seen Westeros. If you are exiled mercenary you probably can't make longbows as it is a complicated craft. The quote is just comparing quality of different bows from Essos with slight possibility that longbows might be westerosi design. Also it says longbows were better, not longer ranged than the shortbows. Range is not everything. For example crossbows of West in real life had shorter range but higher penetration power due to a heavy bolt.

 

Ahem...

Quote

Better than these were the big yew long-bows borne by the archers of Westerosi blood
 

Seems to be quite conclusive that these are Westerosi longbows. Or at least, technological equivalents.

As for "better", you are correct this does not mean "more range" necessarily. But maximum range is not that useful of a value: if you do no damage, you may as well not waste arrows.

2 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said:

I will take an exact quote that Dothraki shortbows outrange what Westerosi have from someone that actually lived in Westeros and with Dothraki over what you gave.

Even if they do - and remember, this is Jorah speaking - even if they do, they will suck against even light armor. Making them useless in any kind of battle in Westeros.

[Tygett Lannister]

Like I already said. Someone being of westerosi blood does not equate to them using westerosi weapons.

[Aldarion]

6 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Like I already said. Someone being of westerosi blood does not equate to them using westerosi weapons.

True. But in this case, we have weapons whose description would have them be exactly same as weapons used in Westeros. Logical conclusion would be that these are the same weapons, or weapons similar enough to be functionally same, instead of somehow being the exactly-same-description-yet-somehow-utterly-different-weapons.

Big yew long bows. That is literally English longbow.

Edited October 27, 2022 by Aldarion