Do you think that the fact Jaime, Tyrion and even Tywin (to an extent) are beloved by the fandom while Cersei is hated indicates some sexism?

[boltons are sick]

Most of the main Lannister family (which includes Jaime, Tyrion, Cersei and Tywin) are not particularly good people to put it mildly. However, from what I have seen, the ASOIAF fans at least try to understand where Jaime, Tyrion and Tywin come from and there are a lot of people who think they are not actually evil people even if they have their faults.

Yet, when it comes to Cersei, the fandom just hates her and think she is irredeemable and evil and constantly dehumanizes her and refuses to see things from her perspective even she is no more morally reprehensible than the rest of her family. Tywin as actually done much worse things than her and Tyrion's actions are just as bad as Cersei's and in soe cases can be even worse (I don't recall Cersei organizing a massive invasion against the Vale where many innocent people are killed or feeding human flesh to unsuspecting poor people).

The fans completely ignore the fact that most of the things Cersei has done are done to protect her children from harm and I honestly don't even blame her for her actions against Robert and Ned. Robert raped her and he would have executed her children because Cersei commited the "crime" of cheating on her (which is something Robert also did, but when a man does according to the fandom, it's not a crime, but when a woman cheats on her rapist husband, she is Satan herself and needs to be beheaded along with her children and isn't allowed to do anything to protect her family from this injustice). Ned endangered her kids wit his actions (just to be clear, I don't hate Ned but if you look at things from Cersei's perspective, Ned's actions would have led to her children being executed) and that's why I can't blame her for acting to protect them. But most of the fandom totally ignores how executing a woman and her children because said woman was forced to marry a man she didn't love and cheated on him is morally wrong and laos conveniently ignores that Robert also cheated on her and raped her (if somebody rapes you repeatedly, I personally would be totally fine with you killing said person even in the present day).

Also, there are some double standards that readers use to judge characters when it's convenient to them. For example, Cersei isn't allowed sexual freedom and shouldn't do anything about her husbadn rping her because "that's how things were back then" but when Catelyn is cold towards Jon due to his bastard status or when people don't like Tyrion due to being dwarf, the fans apply modern morality and judge the people who do it harshly even though that also falls under the category of "that's how things were back then".

My point is not that Cersei is 100% good and pure and should be excused of all her faults. My point is that she has reasons to be the way she is and she has relatable reasons behind her actions and she should be judged the same way Tyrion or Jaime are judged by the fandom.

[StarkTullies]

I can't speak for all of fandom, but I hate Cersei... and I hate Tywin even more.  Tywin is my number one least favorite character in the first 3 books.  I also dislike Tyrion quite a bit, but I think Cersei is worse than either Tyrion or Jaime.  Jaime is trying to become a better person, but Cersei gets increasingly worse with each new POV chapter.  Cersei is my most disliked POV character, and Tyrion is my 3rd most disliked POV character (only Cersei and Victarion are worse).

I am confident in saying that my dislike for Cersei has nothing to do with an unconscious sexist bias, but do some people judge her more harshly as a woman than they would if she were a man?  Of course.  Everyone is different, and I don't think there can be a general sweeping explanation for our likes or dislikes.

1 hour ago, boltons are sick said:

most of the things Cersei has done are done to protect her children from harm

I disagree.  The claim that "Cersei's only good trait is that she loves her children" comes from an alternate telling of the story, and I don't see that demonstrated in the books.  She "loves" Jaime because she sees herself in him, and her "love" for Joffrey seems to be equally narcissistic.  She's downright nasty to Tommen and a terrible mother to him.

1 hour ago, boltons are sick said:

Ned endangered her kids wit his actions (just to be clear, I don't hate Ned but if you look at things from Cersei's perspective, Ned's actions would have led to her children being executed)

People often say Ned is an idiot for telling Cersei he knew the truth.  It wasn't idiocy, it was compassion to save her children.  The "smart" thing to do would be to not warn Cersei.  If Cersei really cared about her children, she would have fled like Ned asked.  Instead she stayed behind because she cared more about making her power-move than protecting her children.  The scene when Ned warned Cersei didn't show her as frightened or worried.  She tried to seduce Ned, and then she made her infamous "win or die" statement.  She is forcing her children to play the game of thrones.  She is forcing them to "win or die".

1 hour ago, boltons are sick said:

when a woman cheats on her rapist husband, she is Satan herself and needs to be beheaded along with her children and isn't allowed to do anything to protect her family from this injustice

I agree it is non-sense for Robert to be allowed to cheat, but not for Cersei.  To be clear, Cersei didn't cheat on Robert because he was a cheater.  She slept with Jaime the morning of their wedding, and it wasn't going to stop.  It is societal sexism to say that queenly adultery is treason but kingly adultery is not... but Cersei's treason was a lot more than adultery.  She passed her children off as Robert's heirs, and that is legitimate treason.  Plus, she was cheating with her own brother, which is an abomination in Westerosi society for non-Targaryens.

1 hour ago, boltons are sick said:

But most of the fandom totally ignores how executing a woman and her children because said woman was forced to marry a man she didn't love and cheated on him is morally wrong and laos conveniently ignores that Robert also cheated on her and raped her

Cersei murdered a couple of Robert's bastard children in Casterly Rock, and later ordered Barra's death, and unsuccessfully ordered Gendry's death.  Barra and Gendry were politically motivated, but the children in Casterly Rock was pure hate and vengeance.  And of course Cersei murdered Robert.  These alleged crimes that Ned assumed Robert would have done if he learned the truth, Cersei actually did do: killed the spouse, killed the spouse's bastard children.

[astarkchoice]

Dunno anyone whos hates her shes a fun character.

Her pov where shes gagging to slap people is hilarious , i think any hate comes from attempts to push the idea shes a.genius not a fool when in power

[Craving Peaches]

13 minutes ago, StarkTullies said:

Cersei murdered a couple of Robert's bastard children in Casterly Rock, and later ordered Barra's death, and unsuccessfully ordered Gendry's death.  Barra and Gendry were politically motivated, but the children in Casterly Rock was pure hate and vengeance.  And of course Cersei murdered Robert.  These alleged crimes that Ned assumed Robert would have done if he learned the truth, Cersei actually did do: killed the spouse, killed the spouse's bastard children.

This is why I think Cersei is the worst of the lot aside from maybe Tywin.

1 hour ago, boltons are sick said:

she is no more morally reprehensible than the rest of her family.

Aside from Tywin I believe she is. Tyrion hasn't killed any babies, neither has Jaime. Jaime did push a child out the window though. So I think it would have to go (from best to worse in terms of morality) Tyrion, Jamie, Cersei/Tywin. Tyrion's no saint either but so far he's not murdered any babies.

1 hour ago, boltons are sick said:

(I don't recall Cersei organizing a massive invasion against the Vale where many innocent people are killed

He armed the mountain clans. I don't think he organised an invasion of the Vale.

1 hour ago, boltons are sick said:

feeding human flesh to unsuspecting poor people

I don't think that really counts as feeding. Feeding would be like if he invited them all to a feast and then served it up. And people are aware of the dubious nature of the Bowl o' Brown.

1 hour ago, boltons are sick said:

The fans completely ignore the fact that most of the things Cersei has done are done to protect her children from harm

I don't know, a lot of the time she actively tries to put her children in harms way.

1 hour ago, boltons are sick said:

he would have executed her children because Cersei commited the "crime" of cheating on her

It's not just cheating on him, it's the fact that she then tried to pass them off as his children. I don't think it would be right if the children were executed, but Cersei would share some of the blame if they were because she tried to pass them off as Robert's children and legitimate when they were not, which put them in harm's way.

1 hour ago, boltons are sick said:

I can't blame her for acting to protect them

I'm not sure if she really acted to protect them though. She stayed rather than trying to get them out of harm's way.

The issue for me with Cersei and Jaime is not that Cersei is exercising her sexual freemdom or whatever, it's the fact that it's an incestuous relationship and she is trying to pass of the children as Robert's when they are not, and mostly the fact she then murdered multiple innocent babies to cover up her crime.

[boltons are sick]

35 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

It's not just cheating on him, it's the fact that she then tried to pass them off as his children. I don't think it would be right if the children were executed, but Cersei would share some of the blame if they were because she tried to pass them off as Robert's children and legitimate when they were not, which put them in harm's way.

If she didn't pretend that her children were Robert's, everyone would have learned that she has cheated on him and then she and the kids would have been executed either way. I am not sure why all the fans portray this as some sort of evil scheme to usurp the throne when the other alternative (telling the truth) would have led to the execution of Cersei and her children because the very act of cheating on the King is considered High Treason.

[Canon Claude]

Speak for yourself, I hate all the main Lannisters. Tytos was at least a decent man.

[Arthur Peres]

Can only talk for myself.

Of everyone you mentioned the one I dislike the most is Jaime, by far.

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

If she didn't pretend that her children were Robert's, everyone would have learned that she has cheated on him and then she and the kids would have been executed either way. I am not sure why all the fans portray this as some sort of evil scheme to usurp the throne when the other alternative (telling the truth) would have led to the execution of Cersei and her children because the very act of cheating on the King is considered High Treason.

But it's her fault that she has to pretend the children are Robert's in the first place. She didn't have to have children with Jaime and pass them off as Robert's, she chose to and in doing so put herself, her brother and the children at risk. She could have cheated and just not have had the children. Then there would be comparatively less risk. And it is a scheme to usurp the throne, regardless of whether you feel it's justifiable or not (personally I think two wrongs don't make a right). The children are not Robert's, they are her bastards and she knows it.

[The Commentator]

The ugly attitudes of sexism afflict many of the readers. Cersei is not the only victim of such primitive feelings. Cersei, Daenerys, Catelyn, and Asha are on the receiving end of it. 

[sifth]

The fact is we see all 3 of the characters mentioned doing at least some good in the series. Even Tywin, who I personally hate. Cersei on the other hand has never done one good thing in the entire series, unless it was for her benefit or her kids. 

[StarkTullies]

It seems that the focus of Cersei's sins in this thread are events that happened while married to Robert.  When reading AGOT, she didn't stand out as being worse than most other political schemers.  It was during AFFC that she quickly flew toward the top of my most hated characters list:

• Torturing innocent victims into permanent insanity or death to create false testimony against Margaery.  (As a side note, I feel less sympathetic toward the sexist system working against Cersei when she uses that exact same sexist system against Margaery.)
• Ordering an assassination against Trystane Martell, a small boy.
• Inciting a dwarf genocide and not caring how many innocents are killed just as long as it might kill her brother.
• Ordering an assassination against Jon Snow for no reason other than him being the son of her dead enemy.
• Conspiring to have Bronn killed just out of petty vengeance for naming his son Tyrion, and then murdering her "friend" when the plot backfired.
• In addition to Falyse, continuing to offer women to Qyburn for his "experiments".
• Murdering her "best friend" Melara at age 11.

The list goes on.  All of these show that Cersei is a petty, spiteful, vindictive, evil person.  None of these acts can be defended.

[frenin]

Cersei is the most hilarious sibling but also the most awful. 

[Jon Fossoway]

No.

[Jaenara Belarys]

No. Cersei is filth personified. At least Tywin and Tyrion sideways ruled well, Jaime has been fixing himself, while Cersei is still a depraved, cruel, arrogant, narcissistic, petty, vindictive, murdering, bad mother, fill-in the blank. 

 

[Lady Silverwing]

Add to the Cersei list that she aborted one of Robert's children.

Quote

“A dozen years,” Ned said. “How is it that you have had no children by the king?”

She lifted her head, defiant. “Your Robert got me with child once,” she said, her voice thick with contempt. “My brother found a woman to cleanse me. He never knew, If truth be told, I can scarcely bear for him to touch me, and I have not let him inside me for years.

 

[sifth]

What annoys me about Cersei the most is she's completely blind to Joffrey's nature. The kid orders people to die and arrests others for trivial reasons, but to her it's just "well boys will be boys". He wanted to make Sansa kiss the head of her dead brother, at his wedding, "well boys will be boys". He has his kingsguard beat Sansa for his own amusement "well boys will be boys". You have to be a full on idiot or monster yourself, if you can't see Joffrey's nature, just from him killing the pregnant cat alone. No sane parent would be able to justify Joffrey's nature, heck even Tywin was starting to get fed up with him, towards the end, so that should say something.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Cersei is by far the vilest, pettiest and most despicable of the Lannister siblings with Tyrion and Jaime even at their worsts being nowhere near as cruel, petty and spiteful as her. 

Also while Tywin is a very shitty human being himself and far more flawed politician than others say he is, he's far more intelligent, pragmatic and competent than Cersei is while being nowhere as smug, clueless and self-congratulating as Cersei. 

So it isn't hard to understand why most prefer Tyrion, Jaime and Tywin to Cersei.

[StarkTullies]

3 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

So it isn't hard to understand why most prefer Tyrion, Jaime and Tywin to Cersei.

Yeah, I said earlier in this thread that I hated Tywin more than Cersei... and after arguing why she is so terrible, I am wondering why I said that?  Probably because Tywin is more competent in his diabolical schemes than Cersei, so he has caused more actual damage.  But Cersei's nature is worse than Tywin's.  Tywin doesn't have a forgiving bone in his body, but he is practical enough to "forgive" when it suits his needs, and Cersei thrives on petty vengeance.

So I changed my mind.  Cersei is the most evil Lannister, even if Tywin is more dangerous.  Tywin is still my least favorite character in the first 3 books only because Cersei's true nature isn't fully revealed until the 4th book, but Cersei is worse overall.

But in response to thread title, none of the Lannisters are "beloved" to me.  They are all bad, but to non-equal extents.

[chrisdaw]

Do people try to downplay Cersei's evilness and explain it away because she's a woman?

For example making comparisons about evil deeds and crying sexism without even mentioning Cersei murdered her childhood friend and as an adult looks back on it like that little bitch got what she deserved.

I find Cersei very entertaining and generally the depth of hate around here for her is not what you'll find for Tywin and Jaime.

[Daenerysthegreat]

Sort of

the fact that people defend Tyrion after he raped a child(in adwd) and threatened to rape his own nephew and call him the most moralistic Lannister just to hate Cersei can be called a sexist thing.

Cersei isn’t completely innocent, she raped taena and mutilated the heiress of stokeworth.

Also if you want a honest opinion about these, don’t ask the Jon and Arya fans, most of them hate Cersei and every other female character(except brienne), I can’t call them stark fans since they hate Sansa and bran and Rickon and Catelyn. Actually I don’t think they even like the male characters. The double standards you’re talking about comes from them, not the rest of the fandom(well mostly)

23 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

Most of the main Lannister family (which includes Jaime, Tyrion, Cersei and Tywin) are not particularly good people to put it mildly. However, from what I have seen, the ASOIAF fans at least try to understand where Jaime, Tyrion and Tywin come from and there are a lot of people who think they are not actually evil people even if they have their faults.

Yet, when it comes to Cersei, the fandom just hates her and think she is irredeemable and evil and constantly dehumanizes her and refuses to see things from her perspective even she is no more morally reprehensible than the rest of her family. Tywin as actually done much worse things than her and Tyrion's actions are just as bad as Cersei's and in soe cases can be even worse (I don't recall Cersei organizing a massive invasion against the Vale where many innocent people are killed or feeding human flesh to unsuspecting poor people).

The fans completely ignore the fact that most of the things Cersei has done are done to protect her children from harm and I honestly don't even blame her for her actions against Robert and Ned. Robert raped her and he would have executed her children because Cersei commited the "crime" of cheating on her (which is something Robert also did, but when a man does according to the fandom, it's not a crime, but when a woman cheats on her rapist husband, she is Satan herself and needs to be beheaded along with her children and isn't allowed to do anything to protect her family from this injustice). Ned endangered her kids wit his actions (just to be clear, I don't hate Ned but if you look at things from Cersei's perspective, Ned's actions would have led to her children being executed) and that's why I can't blame her for acting to protect them. But most of the fandom totally ignores how executing a woman and her children because said woman was forced to marry a man she didn't love and cheated on him is morally wrong and laos conveniently ignores that Robert also cheated on her and raped her (if somebody rapes you repeatedly, I personally would be totally fine with you killing said person even in the present day).

Also, there are some double standards that readers use to judge characters when it's convenient to them. For example, Cersei isn't allowed sexual freedom and shouldn't do anything about her husbadn rping her because "that's how things were back then" but when Catelyn is cold towards Jon due to his bastard status or when people don't like Tyrion due to being dwarf, the fans apply modern morality and judge the people who do it harshly even though that also falls under the category of "that's how things were back then".

My point is not that Cersei is 100% good and pure and should be excused of all her faults. My point is that she has reasons to be the way she is and she has relatable reasons behind her actions and she should be judged the same way Tyrion or Jaime are judged by the fandom.