Do you think that the fact Jaime, Tyrion and even Tywin (to an extent) are beloved by the fandom while Cersei is hated indicates some sexism?

[BalerionTheCat]

On 10/21/2022 at 4:49 AM, frenin said:

So, you get Jaime saying that he badly wanted Cersei but it's not a proof that he initiated

Wanting is not making the decision, leading.

Quote

Jaime made no attempt to block the blow. "I see I need a thicker beard, to cushion me against my queen’s caresses." He wanted to rip her gown off and turn her blows to kisses. He’d done it before, back when he had two good hands.
The queen’s eyes were green ice. "You had best go, ser."
... Lancel, Osmund Kettleblack, and Moon Boy ...
"Are you deaf as well as maimed? You’ll find the door behind you, ser."
"As you command." Jaime turned on his heel and left her.
Somewhere the gods were laughing. Cersei had never taken kindly to being balked, he knew that. Softer words might have swayed her, yet of late the very sight of her made him angry.

Cersei is using tears and sex for persuasion. For getting whatever she wants. She started, experimented with Jaime.

Quote

"Were it anyone else outside the gates, I might hope to beguile him. But this is Stannis Baratheon. I’d have a better chance of seducing his horse." She noticed the look on Sansa’s face, and laughed. "Have I shocked you, my lady?" She leaned close. "You little fool. Tears are not a woman’s only weapon. You’ve got another one between your legs, and you’d best learn to use it. You’ll find men use their swords freely enough. Both kinds of swords."

There are 3 hints I take for Jaime being subdued by her:
a) Cersei own character: She is in no way the kind to submit, to be balked, by anyone. Yielding to her was his only option.
b) All her memories, of her childhood and past, dealing with him or others, suggest "she was in charge". None of his.
c) His relation to her is insane. Why does he stays, keep loving, keep wanting her? Until he left her, finally.

On 10/21/2022 at 4:49 AM, frenin said:

Yet you're excusing him, arguing he is a mindless drone.

You like this drone. I don't even see what you mean exactly. Mindless like the wights? Build influence on someone, by years of browbeating and yielding to her whims is not remote control. He hates her. He has his own mind.

[frenin]

24 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Wanting is not making the decision, leading.

But we have seen both of them making the decision, leading.

We have Jaime saying that he wanted Cersei badly yet...

 

26 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Cersei is using tears and sex for persuasion. For getting whatever she wants. She started, experimented with Jaime.

And Jaime his charisma and his strenght to get whatever he wants.

Ie, getting Cersei to have sex before  her son's corpse.

 

27 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

There are 3 hints I take for Jaime being subdued by her:
a) Cersei own character: She is in no way the kind to submit, to be balked, by anyone. Yielding to her was his only option.
b) All her memories, of her childhood and past, dealing with him or others, suggest "she was in charge". None of his.
c) His relation to her is insane. Why does he stays, keep loving, keep wanting her? Until he left her, finally.

a) Cersei's own character is one of submission. She has been submited to every man in her life, her brother, her father, her husband, her son... It's a fundamental part of her character, that resentment she feels for being chained because she's a woman.

b) You're purposefully misinterpreting children's banter to manipulation.

c) Why does she still love him? It is insane but then again, both are.

 

 

30 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

You like this drone. I don't even see what you mean exactly. Mindless like the wights? Build influence on someone, by years of browbeating and yielding to her whims is not remote control. He hates her. He has his own mind.

You're saying that Jaime's being subdued to the point he doesn't have a mind of his own till he loses his hand. That is a drone.

He doesn't hate her btw, he resents her and he's clouded by jealousy but he does not hate her.

[BalerionTheCat]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

But we have seen both of them making the decision, leading.

Jaime on questions of battles, in the Riverlands. Not with Cersei.

2 hours ago, frenin said:

And Jaime his charisma and his strenght to get whatever he wants.

Ie, getting Cersei to have sex before  her son's corpse.

This case, yes. He pushed, she agreed. He did it often. Sex is her weapon.She told it to Sansa, tried to use it with Ned....

Jaime was nowhere in a position to push at Winterfell, not before they were hidden in the tower. But think what you want of this case, I don't care.

2 hours ago, frenin said:

a) Cersei's own character is one of submission

Where? When? Her father, Robert? Maybe. But she fought it all she could.

She resents any compromise, even honest counsel, as an attempt of submission. Because it is the only way she sees things.

Quote

She was tired of Jaime balking her. No one had ever balked her lord father. When Tywin Lannister spoke, men obeyed. When Cersei spoke, they felt free to counsel her, to contradict her, even refuse her. It is all because I am a woman. Because I cannot fight them with a sword. They gave Robert more respect than they give me, and Robert was a witless sot. She would not suffer it, especially not from Jaime. I need to rid myself of him, and soon.

She is not speaking of Jaime balking her for sex. But of sane counsels. Especially from Jaime, because he is her pet.

[sifth]

4 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I do think that the flack and the hate that flawed female characters get does indicate sexism.

It's true all across media that female characters tend to be really torn to shreds for being flawed or troubled in any way.

However, this applies to the likes of Catelyn and Sansa. Not to the likes of Cersei. Although her POV chapters are both a lot of fun and exquisitely well-written, Cersei is hated because she is truly vile. It has nothing to do with her sex.

 

Wait, people hate Sansa? I'm shocked, she's easily become one of the most interesting characters, especially in AFFC, IMO

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

Wait, people hate Sansa? I'm shocked, she's easily become one of the most interesting characters, especially in AFFC, IMO

Because she didn't testify against Joffrey and let Lady be killed. Because she betrayed Ned to Cersei, even after that. She was young and naive. Maybe because of her mother or that septa. But yes, she grew after that.

[sifth]

41 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Because she didn't testify against Joffrey and let Lady be killed. Because she betrayed Ned to Cersei, even after that. She was young and naive. Maybe because of her mother or that septa. But yes, she grew after that.

Yea, but that stuff makes her interesting. Learning from her mistakes. Arya and Tyrion probably did worse stuff and are loved by the fans. 

[frenin]

1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Jaime on questions of battles, in the Riverlands. Not with Cersei.

With Cersei too.

 

1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

This case, yes. He pushed, she agreed. He did it often. Sex is her weapon.She told it to Sansa, tried to use it with Ned....

It is difficult to use sex as a weapon against someone you crave to have sex with.

That's why both give in to each other so often.

 

 

1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Jaime was nowhere in a position to push at Winterfell, not before they were hidden in the tower. But think what you want of this case, I don't care.

And Cersei was? Come on now.

 

 

1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Where? When? Her father, Robert? Maybe. But she fought it all she could.

She resents any compromise, even honest counsel, as an attempt of submission. Because it is the only way she sees things.

 

Quote

"That's my good boy." The rule was hers; Cersei did not mean to give it up until Tommen came of age. I waited, so can he. I waited half my life. She had played the dutiful daughter, the blushing bride, the pliant wife. She had suffered Robert's drunken groping, Jaime's jealousy, Renly's mockery, Varys with his titters, Stannis endlessly grinding his teeth. She had contended with Jon Arryn, Ned Stark, and her vile, treacherous, murderous dwarf brother, all the while promising herself that one day it would be her turn. If Margaery Tyrell thinks to cheat me of my hour in the sun, she had bloody well think again.

This is a story about submission lol.

Cersei is a woman, as such, her power is limited and subordinated to the men of her life.  And she-s trying to break free of that. She sees everything as an attempt to submsission because that's all her known.

 

 

1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

She is not speaking of Jaime balking her for sex. But of sane counsels. Especially from Jaime, because he is her pet.

Or her equal, the closest person to her.

You trying to read too much into it doesn't change it.

[StarkTullies]

On 10/21/2022 at 2:52 PM, kissdbyfire said:

I agree w/ a lot here. Only Tyrion is my #1 most disliked character - and I find it infuriating that he gets a pass for some of the vilest things any PoV has done.

I'll respect your desire to not derail this thread, but I agree.  I was being generous when I said "I dislike Tyrion quite a bit".  It's odd to me that I see countless threads condemning each individual Stark, but very infrequently do I see anti-Tyrion threads.  (I recently joined this forum, but I was lurking for a long time.)

With more thought, I might change my rankings and say Tyrion is worse than Victarion.  Victarion has his crappy pirate culture to blame for his worst actions; Tyrion only has his own narcissism to blame (and being raised by Tywin, but since Tyrion always abhorred Tywin and wasn't really "raised" by him, it's less of an excuse).  

On 10/21/2022 at 2:52 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Really really dislike Cersei as a [fictional] person, but like her chapters.

Definitely.  She is my most hated POV character (from a character likeability standpoint), but her chapters are toward the top of my list of favorite POV chapters.

On 10/21/2022 at 2:52 PM, kissdbyfire said:

The one thing I don’t really see eye to eye here is that Jaime is trying to become a better person, or is n a redemption arc… I think he is exactly the same person he was from the start, only perhaps slightly less cynical. The notion that he’s changed significantly comes from being in his head imo, b/c it’s much easier to understand and relate to someone when you get to know them a little, so to speak.

I think that Jaime was misunderstood, but I do think he started out as a very nasty character when we first saw his thoughts in ASOS, and improved with each new chapter in that book after that.  For me, starting to think of Brienne as "Brienne" rather than "the wench" was a breakthrough moment for me... and I think losing his hand forced him to re-assess his life.

On 10/21/2022 at 2:52 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Cersei is herself very misogynistic. She’s always seen herself as a female Tywin and also desperately wants others to see her as such. I think some of her vileness and cruelty comes from that, too. 
But having Tywin as their father, the 3 siblings never really had a chance. 

Yep.  Tyrion hated how he was treated for being a dwarf, and then he had contempt toward Penny for... being a dwarf.  Likewise, Cersei hated being treated differently for being a woman, and then looked down at other women for being women.  The two siblings have more in common than they'd ever admit.

Ironically, Cersei wants to be Tywin and Tyrion doesn't... yet Genna was exactly right when she said Tyrion was Tywin's true son.

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

With Cersei too.

Where?

1 hour ago, frenin said:

It is difficult to use sex as a weapon against someone you crave to have sex with.

Then it become a tool of dependence. It's the purpose.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

And Cersei was? Come on now.

She didn't have. Just to summon him, as she did at  Darry. He can't just summon her somewhere.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

This is a story about submission lol.

Exactly. How she interacts and see relations between people: conflicts of influence. Subdue or be subdued.

What she describes is politics, Imagined (or not) personal belittling. But she would prefer to hack her way thru it with a sword. If she was a man, she would be who? Gregor? Not Tywin certainly.

Jaime's jealousy, she created it.

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

Arya and Tyrion probably did worse stuff and are loved by the fans.

Not all fans are loving Tyrion or Arya. Some are loving them because they are kicking asses, even if they have a worrying dark side. Same for Dany.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, StarkTullies said:

I'll respect your desire to not derail this thread, but I agree.  I was being generous when I said "I dislike Tyrion quite a bit".  It's odd to me that I see countless threads condemning each individual Stark, but very infrequently do I see anti-Tyrion threads.  (I recently joined this forum, but I was lurking for a long time.)

There’s always been a certain amount of Tyrion love that I find… weird, to put it mildly. But it blew up like a bodybuilder on radioactive steroids during/after the abomination. The individuals responsible for the aforementioned abomination clearly loooooooved the Lannisters (except Jaime), and Tyrion above all. 
The blind Stark hate that only exists if you ignore the text comes from a small but loud group that is completely unable to divorce their dislike for a character from the actual story being told. They’re in for a few surprises. 

ps: my not wanting to derail the thread is specifically about not wanting to get into Tyrion’s actions in detail, b/c then it becomes a thread about Tyrion and not the general discussion we’re having here. 

1 hour ago, StarkTullies said:

With more thought, I might change my rankings and say Tyrion is worse than Victarion.  Victarion has his crappy pirate culture to blame for his worst actions; Tyrion only has his own narcissism to blame (and being raised by Tywin, but since Tyrion always abhorred Tywin and wasn't really "raised" by him, it's less of an excuse).  

Oh Tyrion is much worse than Vic imo. I mean, Vic is a dumb brute from a rape/pillage culture. Tyrion is intelligent and well-read, so he knows better but doesn’t care. 

 

1 hour ago, StarkTullies said:

Definitely.  She is my most hated POV character (from a character likeability standpoint), but her chapters are toward the top of my list of favorite POV chapters.

Yes, her chapters are so very good and insane. 

1 hour ago, StarkTullies said:

I think that Jaime was misunderstood, but I do think he started out as a very nasty character when we first saw his thoughts in ASOS, and improved with each new chapter in that book after that.  For me, starting to think of Brienne as "Brienne" rather than "the wench" was a breakthrough moment for me... and I think losing his hand forced him to re-assess his life.

I think I was a bit lazy in my previous post. I agree w/ you here. What I meant is that, while he is evolving as a ‘person’, I don’t think the positive traits we see now are something new. He once had noble ideals, but becomes increasingly disillusioned and cynical - and how could he not? And after meeting Brienne, he starts to become less bitter and cynical. It’s an interesting journey, let’s see where he goes from when we last saw him. 

1 hour ago, StarkTullies said:

Yep.  Tyrion hated how he was treated for being a dwarf, and then he had contempt toward Penny for... being a dwarf.  Likewise, Cersei hated being treated differently for being a woman, and then looked down at other women for being women.  The two siblings have more in common than they'd ever admit.

Spot on.

1 hour ago, StarkTullies said:

Ironically, Cersei wants to be Tywin and Tyrion doesn't... yet Genna was exactly right when she said Tyrion was Tywin's true son.

Yes, and Genna was so right! I do sometimes wonder if Tyrion realises this? 

[frenin]

5 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Where?

Seriously, are you going to ignore their meeting at the sept?

 

5 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Then it become a tool of dependence. It's the purpose.

But Cersei is as dependent. She craves Jaime just as much.

 

5 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

She didn't have. Just to summon him, as she did at  Darry. He can't just summon her somewhere.

Did Jaime summon her at the sept? 

Jaime doesn't need to summon Cersei, no one would suspect them being alone. He can just follow her to her chambers.

 

 

5 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Exactly. How she interacts and see relations between people: conflicts of influence. Subdue or be subdued.

And she sees herself as subdued.

 

5 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

What she describes is politics, Imagined (or not) personal belittling. But she would prefer to hack her way thru it with a sword. If she was a man, she would be who? Gregor? Not Tywin certainly.

She would be Jaime. Curious huh.

 

5 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Jaime's jealousy, she created it.

Indeed, when she had sex with other people. She's in Jaime's mind to create  jealousy.

I mean, do you truly believe Jaime is capable to think at this point? 

Are you sure she's not the Great Threat that Aegon the Conqueror saw in his dreams and compelled him to conquer Westeros?

I'm going to treat this with humor and just assuming you're not meaning that Cersei is actually responsible of Jaimes mood swings, that is indeed sexist.

[Hugorfonics]

On 10/22/2022 at 10:46 PM, Ring3r said:

Ok...first....saying you wouldn't do something, then intentionally doing it one sentence later isn't sorry, it's sophism.

It was meant to be a joke mainly to frenin, I really do apologize if you thought I was laughing at your opinion.

(Tbh I have a hard time seeing Jaime as his own character and not a character building block for Tyrion, Brienne and Catelyn (and kinda Cersei who's more of a building block for Sansa), but of course I realize I'm wrong and the kingslayer is worthy of being a pov)

On 10/22/2022 at 10:46 PM, Ring3r said:

Second....I had to go back and look at what I said to try and find what you were referring to...I assume that's how you took the "Big C?"  Her name is Cersie lol.  Like I just said....if you go looking for isms, you'll invent them.  Basically what I think of this whole thread lol

Lol for sure, and I did think it was unintentional and I really should stop smoking so much before I post, but... I clicked on a discussion of sexism and thought I saw "nah, that cunts just crazy" which just, broke me lol. 

Idk... Let me clarify that I'm not calling you or anyone else  specifically here a bigot. But I do kind of (I've been on this site for mad years) get the feeling that women who act out like Cersei or Catelyn get hated on more then the ones who know their place like Asha or Marge. Similarly discussions of the foreign dothraki seem to hit harder then the neighboring wildlings. Idk, perhaps your right and I'm just looking for isms

[kissdbyfire]

12 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

women who act out like Cersei or Catelyn get hated on more then the ones who know their place like Asha

Care to elaborate why you think Asha ‘knows her place’? 

[Hugorfonics]

6 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Care to elaborate why you think Asha ‘knows her place’? 

Lol. Damn vocab. 

Sure! At first she wants to give up her claim to Victarion, being a behind the scenes type girl and not seastone chair girl. Later shes pushing the agenda that Ironborn should be docile like and good bannermen to whatever king happens to be in KL/next to her

[BalerionTheCat]

On 10/23/2022 at 9:14 PM, frenin said:

Seriously, are you going to ignore their meeting at the sept?

No. He asked where she was and came to her. He certainly did it a lot, when they were in KL and it was relatively safe. Cersei initially feebly refuses, but only because it's risky. Other times, she also ignores the risks. Like Darry, when she was furious with Robert. It seems Jaime never cares for the risks. He frightens me. He seems to never care for life, his own or the others. Possibly a natural state for a soldier. But rather some kind of lack of self-esteem. Why is he so cynical?

On 10/23/2022 at 9:14 PM, frenin said:

But Cersei is as dependent. She craves Jaime just as much.

Yes. But it's not important who begged the other at Winterfell. It's a state they both created. My point is, you can't blame exclusively Jaime for that.

On 10/23/2022 at 9:14 PM, frenin said:

He can just follow her to her chambers.

Exactly. At Winterfell it was not her chambers. She came there without being pushed. He probably had done some pleading. It seems it was their "game".

Quote

His sister looked over her shoulder. "Who?" she said, then, "Jaime?" She rose, her eyes brimming with tears. "Is it truly you?" She did not come to him, however. She has never come to me, he thought. She has always waited, letting me come to her. She gives, but I must ask.

Well, he didn't have to ask at Darry.

I don't know if you see this as sexism. Jaime is sexist, certainly. Possibly because of their sick relation. But he has changed a lot since Brienne.

On 10/23/2022 at 9:14 PM, frenin said:

And she sees herself as subdued.

Yes. But she expects subservience of everyone. And when it fails, she pretends the others want to subdue her. While they just refuse her demands. For whatever reason. Usually because they are stupid or unacceptable.

On 10/23/2022 at 9:14 PM, frenin said:

Are you sure she's not the Great Threat that Aegon the Conqueror saw in his dreams and compelled him to conquer Westeros?

Funny. But no. She is not that important. Evil yes, but weak.

On 10/23/2022 at 9:14 PM, frenin said:

I'm going to treat this with humor and just assuming you're not meaning that Cersei is actually responsible of Jaimes mood swings, that is indeed sexist.

I firmly believe that Jaime has had a kind of "enslavement" to Cersei. Starting from their early childhood. That she claims he was born holding her foot (true or only her fantasy), means she believes to be the one to lead, and him to follow.  She used sex to subdue him. She used it with Lancel, with the Kettleblacks (or promise of), she proposed it to Ned, joked about it for Stannis. She has a very disrespectfull attitude to women in general. All of them:

Quote

Cersei did not intend to squander Tommen’s strength playing wet nurse to sparrows, or guarding the wrinkled cunts of a thousand sour septas. Half of them are probably praying for a good raping.

[Ring3r]

14 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

It was meant to be a joke mainly to frenin, I really do apologize if you thought I was laughing at your opinion.

(Tbh I have a hard time seeing Jaime as his own character and not a character building block for Tyrion, Brienne and Catelyn (and kinda Cersei who's more of a building block for Sansa), but of course I realize I'm wrong and the kingslayer is worthy of being a pov)

Lol for sure, and I did think it was unintentional and I really should stop smoking so much before I post, but... I clicked on a discussion of sexism and thought I saw "nah, that cunts just crazy" which just, broke me lol. 

Idk... Let me clarify that I'm not calling you or anyone else  specifically here a bigot. But I do kind of (I've been on this site for mad years) get the feeling that women who act out like Cersei or Catelyn get hated on more then the ones who know their place like Asha or Marge. Similarly discussions of the foreign dothraki seem to hit harder then the neighboring wildlings. Idk, perhaps your right and I'm just looking for isms

Ay, we're good man.  I honestly was concerned that you were taking the bigot-card route.....thank you for explicitly denying that.  Sometimes it's best to take a step back and look at what we're really discussing. Respect.

I really do think that one of the major failings people have when analyzing fiction (and history...which may or may not be the same thing) is that they use their modern viewpoints to try and understand a situation. That's a recipe for disaster, in my view.

So. Respect. Thank you for not escalating. That's rare, in the world of the internet.  As far as your smoking habit....right there with you man. Soon as it doesn't influence my rights of self defense, I'm on the same page.

***EDIT***

I think there's several female characters that fans love in this story....they love them because they're good characters.  Gender is immaterial in terms of who people like.  Arya, Queen of Roses, Mel, Dalla, etc. Very compelling characters, who happen to have a vagoo.

 

[frenin]

12 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

No. He asked where she was and came to her. He certainly did it a lot, when they were in KL and it was relatively safe. Cersei initially feebly refuses, but only because it's risky. Other times, she also ignores the risks. Like Darry, when she was furious with Robert. It seems Jaime never cares for the risks. He frightens me. He seems to never care for life, his own or the others. Possibly a natural state for a soldier. But rather some kind of lack of self-esteem. Why is he so cynical?

Well ofc, it's risky and she's literally mourning her dead son.

Yet it is Jaime initiating it.

 

12 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Yes. But it's not important who begged the other at Winterfell. It's a state they both created. My point is, you can't blame exclusively Jaime for that.

I did not blame exclusively for that.

In fact, I'm going out of my way to say it's a situation they both want... Yet you're comparing Jaime to a slave.

 

 

12 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Exactly. At Winterfell it was not her chambers. She came there without being pushed. He probably had done some pleading. It seems it was their "game".

At Winterfell she has chambers assigned to her, chambers where it's not weird for Jaime to follow her.

Isn't your quote a proof that is Jaime the one who is always iniating it anyway? If she's always waiting...

 

 

12 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Well, he didn't have to ask at Darry.

I don't know if you see this as sexism. Jaime is sexist, certainly. Possibly because of their sick relation. But he has changed a lot since Brienne.

He certainly believes he has, whether he has changed that much remains to be seen.

 

 

12 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Yes. But she expects subservience of everyone. And when it fails, she pretends the others want to subdue her. While they just refuse her demands. For whatever reason. Usually because they are stupid or unacceptable.

The people she has described, Jaime, her father, Ned, Robert, Arryn, Renly... Those are all men who by station or by relationship Cersei cannot subdue.

 

 

12 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Funny. But no. She is not that important. Evil yes, but weak.

Again, kinda like Jaime.

 

12 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I firmly believe that Jaime has had a kind of "enslavement" to Cersei. Starting from their early childhood. That she claims he was born holding her foot (true or only her fantasy), means she believes to be the one to lead, and him to follow.  She used sex to subdue him. She used it with Lancel, with the Kettleblacks (or promise of), she proposed it to Ned, joked about it for Stannis.

You keep getting upset when i use the word drone and then you turn around and come up with even more egregious descriptions. Enslaved? Really?

That she claims that Jaime was born holding her foot means that she's the older and that she believes she shoould be in charge, not that she ever was. 

She never cared about those men but Jaime. And as I said before using sex to subdue someone, you better not care for them else you end up being the one subdued..

 

 

Quote

She has a very disrespectfull attitude to women in general. All of them:

Yes so? This has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, never did i claim she's a nice person.

Arguing that Cersei's responsible of Jaime's jealousy, regardless of how nasty and sexist Cersei's character is, is indeed sexist.

[the trees have eyes]

To the OP, in general terms, no, but there is a wide readership so that's like asking how long's a piece of string.

Tyrion is written quite sympathetically to start before turning darker; the initial sympathy carries him a long way.  Jaime is written as a monster from the moment he throws Bran from the window but GRRM is consciously playing with the idea of redemption so Jaime appears differently as the story goes on and we get his pov as he struggles with doing the right thing: he's far from good but we have a more sympathetic view of him than to start.

Tywin and Cersei are written as antagonists without any sympathetic qualities and without any redeeming character development.  Indeed Cersei appears worse as we learn of her childhood murder of Melara Hetherspoon and see her take part in Qyburn's tortures.  She is consciously imitating Tywin and seeking to outdo him in ruthlessness so they are very similar.  As some people like good villains there is niche fan approval for both of them (as there is for Roose Bolton).

Even if someone "likes" Tywin and despises Cersei I'm not sure that implies sexism - it would depend on their reasons.  It could simply be in terms of effectiveness: Tywin was an efficient Hand for Aerys and won TWot5K while Cersei is a hot mess in terms of judgment and conduct with even Kevan and Jaime, her closest family, realising she is a disaster in a position of power.

[Hugorfonics]

9 hours ago, Ring3r said:

Ay, we're good man.  I honestly was concerned that you were taking the bigot-card route.....thank you for explicitly denying that.  Sometimes it's best to take a step back and look at what we're really discussing. Respect.

Ok cool. Yea I looked back at how it looks like me laughing at your posts and saying things you said but you didn't all under the umbrella of a touchy subject, so not great lol, let's definitely get back on the right foot. Nothing productive ever comes form disrespect.

9 hours ago, Ring3r said:

So. Respect. Thank you for not escalating. That's rare, in the world of the internet.  As far as your smoking habit....right there with you man. Soon as it doesn't influence my rights of self defense, I'm on the same page.

Word. Just try to uh, not kill anyone lol

9 hours ago, Ring3r said:

I really do think that one of the major failings people have when analyzing fiction (and history...which may or may not be the same thing) is that they use their modern viewpoints to try and understand a situation. That's a recipe for disaster, in my view.

I fundamentally disagree, for a few reasons.

Firstly that's a dangerous road imo where you're likely to whitewash like, Nazi eugenics or you know, some other Nazi shit. So, that's not great.

The other major reason is, who the hell really knows what it was like? Only some dying ex Nazis now, and they were practically children back then. 

Quote

"I never knew that northmen made blood sacrifice to their heart trees."

"There's much and more you southrons do not know about the north," Ser Bartimus replied.

He was not wrong.

All I know is the morals I was taught and learned, in the case of asoiaf GRRM is alive while I'm alive (can't say we're the same age lol) and raised and lived in a place not to far (in the grand schemes) from mine. So I believe the chances are good that we could see eye to eye on many things.

 

(Speaking of history or fiction, there's that historical fiction book romance of three kingdoms, so it's set in 200, written in 1500 and is of course Chinese, who's entire culture is honestly almost as foreign to me as the northerners or wherever Davos is from. So the main character lost a battle and was alone and starving, a peasant sees this hero and offers him a roof for a night, when Liu Bei asked for dinner the man who's cabinets were empty killed his wife and served her. Liu Bei noticed but didn't want to be rude/ was starving so he didn't say anything and ate the meal. His friend and eventual villain heard about this and gave that peasant mad money and three new wives. 

That's an insane story, right? But its really far from my western 21st cent standing of a hero and I'm forced to look at the hero in another light.

Later, the two friends are at war, Liu Bei must flee fast to save his army and supplies but insists they protect the refugees as well, much to the chagrin of his advisors he insists that if he abandons the people they won't follow him anymore since he's no true hero. His wife and child are behind enemy lines and a general tries to save them, the wife says she won't get on a horse because he needs it and a knight without a horse isn't a knight, the general persists so the wife commits suicide. There the general, surrounded with an infant in hand, stays off attack after attack, killing many soldiers and generals, after accomplishing the impossible on bended knee he offers his lord a victory and an heir. Liu Bei throws his baby on the ground. "For the sake of an infant you risked my greatest general, where would the kingdom be without you?" 

This is more warlord then hero imo, was that the intention? Did they know in 1500 on the other side of the globe they throwing infants on rocks is bad for their health? Surely, but is the message here, like the cannibalism, too strong? I can only decide for myself as Liu Bei and his stupid son Liu Shan are long dead)