Do you think that the fact Jaime, Tyrion and even Tywin (to an extent) are beloved by the fandom while Cersei is hated indicates some sexism?

[Ring3r]

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Proposal: Instead of 'British English' and 'American English', there should be 'English' and 'American'.

Nah.  English and 'Murcan. 

[Ring3r]

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I believe humans are inherently good

 

That right there is probably behind a huge amount of the disagreements people have on SO many varied topics....believing people are inherently good influences a person's thoughts on government, crime, basically every facet of how life should be lived.

I don't think people are inherently good, though many strive for it.  Many others do not, and are happy to take advantage, but most people are a mix.  So, obviously that colors what I think about.....well, everything. 

[Craving Peaches]

5 hours ago, Ring3r said:

Nah.  English and 'Murcan.

As long as they are properly differentiated somehow...

[frenin]

14 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

But not more humane or pragmatic the doing, you know, nothing.

A good guy he may be, but a fool and a hopeless player he is too. What did Theons abduction accomplish? Did it stop Balon from going to war? Did it create an unbreakable bond between Greyjoy and Stark? Or did it just fuel Theon with revenge and information on how to take Winterfell?

They couldn't do nothing. They didn't trust Baelon's bozo ass. Which good reason.

And sure plan didn't work. I don't think Robert and Eddard expected to die soon enough of their Houses to ever fight against each other.

But then again, I also don't think young Tywin, Steffon and Aerys thought their children would kill each other.

[Hugorfonics]

5 hours ago, frenin said:

 

12 hours ago, Ring3r said:

Sure, of course I feel for the people of Ukraine.  Hell, back when Crimea was seized, a man who I attended the Captains Career Course with (the military does exchange programs to cross train with allies) died.  He'd been recalled from class to go back to Ukraine and we were informed he was KIA less than a month later.  War is always awful for the people, regardless of where it is.  The government is another story.....BOTH sides' leaders are bad.  Zelinsky immediately jailed his political competition upon gaining office and there's a huge contingent of nazi groups in the country that are receiving direct support from the government (and everyone elses).  Nothing is ever simple.

Not the response I expected lol. But whatever, my point was what's the cut off for history? If not Russia and Georgia then Russia and Afghanistan? America and Afghanistan? I mean we just left so probably not. But the Soviets were there 40 years ago, does that count as history?

12 hours ago, Ring3r said:

As for people in the past being an ignorant bunch....that's kind of what I'm trying to get at:  We are too.  500 years from now people will be reading history books and laughing at how stupid we are. 

So you are worried about hurting Richerd I feelings? So while I could care less about Richy, I literally couldn't care less (you guys happy? Lol) about 500 years from now cuz I'll be dead, so who cares?

Also I don't really think that's case. For instance in the middle ages everybody wished they were ancient greek, the founding fathers of America wanted to be like Roman patricians. I think it's relatively recent that human beings have discovered they can be better the Cato

12 hours ago, Ring3r said:

Actually, Theon being raised in Winterfell DID prevent Balon from going to war.  He didn't go to war until Theon was back under his control. 

With his whole navy already mustered, Cat (and I agree) thinks that Balon would have probably warred no matter what

12 hours ago, Ring3r said:

As he recovers, I think you'll find that he's quite loyal to the Starks.

I think so too actually 

5 hours ago, frenin said:

They couldn't do nothing.

But, why not?

5 hours ago, frenin said:

But then again, I also don't think young Tywin, Steffon and Aerys thought their children would kill each other.

But I bet it wouldn't surprise them

[Aldarion]

13 hours ago, Ring3r said:

That right there is probably behind a huge amount of the disagreements people have on SO many varied topics....believing people are inherently good influences a person's thoughts on government, crime, basically every facet of how life should be lived.

I don't think people are inherently good, though many strive for it.  Many others do not, and are happy to take advantage, but most people are a mix.  So, obviously that colors what I think about.....well, everything. 

I do not think people are inherently good or inherently bad. I do think people are inherently stupid, and more people you have in a group, more stupid they become.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

But, why not?

Balon had just rebelled.

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

But I bet it wouldn't surprise them

I mean i bet it did.

You expect your kids and your bff's kids are as close as you are.

Life has other plans tho.

[Hugorfonics]

4 hours ago, frenin said:

Balon had just rebelled.

And maybe if Stark didn't piss him off so much he wouldn't have rebelled again

5 hours ago, frenin said:

I mean i bet it did.

You expect your kids and your bff's kids are as close as you are.

Life has other plans tho.

Me and my friends aren't warlords who's ancestors did a good job killing each other 

[Craving Peaches]

14 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

And maybe if Stark didn't piss him off so much he wouldn't have rebelled again

No one pissed him off in the first place and he still chose to rebel.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

And maybe if Stark didn't piss him off so much he wouldn't have rebelled again

I mean he would.

Balon is an idiot who would only be satisfied with a crown on his head and have his men rape and stealing as they see fit.

One those instances where not being merciful is the way to go. Balon thinks mercy is weakness.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Me and my friends aren't warlords who's ancestors did a good job killing each other

They don't need to be.

Kids don't always get along.

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

I mean he would.

Balon is an idiot who would only be satisfied with a crown on his head and have his men rape and stealing as they see fit.

One those instances where not being merciful is the way to go. Balon thinks mercy is weakness.

So you agree that Ned taking Reek accomplished nothing? (Short of like, Bran warging into him to defeat the great other dragon or whatever)

[Ring3r]

11 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Not the response I expected lol. But whatever, my point was what's the cut off for history? If not Russia and Georgia then Russia and Afghanistan? America and Afghanistan? I mean we just left so probably not. But the Soviets were there 40 years ago, does that count as history?

So you are worried about hurting Richerd I feelings? So while I could care less about Richy, I literally couldn't care less (you guys happy? Lol) about 500 years from now cuz I'll be dead, so who cares?

Also I don't really think that's case. For instance in the middle ages everybody wished they were ancient greek, the founding fathers of America wanted to be like Roman patricians. I think it's relatively recent that human beings have discovered they can be better the Cato

There's no cut-off for history, IMO.  If you're hearing about something, it's already happened, and the person or group relating that information to you has already put their spin on it.  Nothing is ever simple....that's why people get masters degrees and doctorates in history.  Parsing out the truth of what happened in the past is very difficult and requires research, cross referencing multiple sources, understanding the ins and outs of the language at the time to avoid misinterpretation etc.  It's extremely complex.  If it wasn't, everyone would just read a history book and know exactly how things played out.

You're misunderstanding the point about judging....I couldn't care what Richard I feels either, he's dead.  That's not the point that people are trying to make.  Taking a simplified viewpoint on things and not considering context doesn't do historical people a disservice - they're dead.  But it does do YOU a disservice, because you end up missing a lot of important contextual information that is important when truly understanding how things happened, why they happened, etc.  It's not about paying respect to people in the past at all - it's about being intellectually rigorous...understanding the setting and the reasons for things, even things you disagree with, and knowing that today's humans, you and me and everyone else included, would very likely have behaved similarly if living in that time.

People in the middle ages didn't wish they were Greek.  They did respect and venerate the written works of some of the finest philosophers from that time period, that's absolutely true....but they also viewed their culture and Gods as sacrilage.  Same with the US founding fathers. Yes, they borrowed some ideas from Roman philosophy, but they also included philosophical viewpoints from all over then-modern Europe, and actually came up with some original stuff themselves.

I understand your point of view but I think you're oversimplifying things and not trying to put yourself in the shoes of somebody from whatever time period you're examining (and I get why, it's uncomfortable to try and put yourself in the shoes of people who you very much disagree with on topics you consider important), but the truth is....ALL of us....if living in a different time period, would be subject to influences we cannot possibly imagine, and we would likely behave very similarly to people in the past....because people have never changed.  Circumstances and technology have....but people haven't.  IMO

 

Also....hey....this is actually a really good back and forth conversation and we're getting along WHILE disagreeing which is really really great and rare.  So....hurray.

[Ring3r]

10 hours ago, Aldarion said:

I do not think people are inherently good or inherently bad. I do think people are inherently stupid, and more people you have in a group, more stupid they become.

I sort of agree, although I think "stupid" might not be the right word for it.  People are inherently self-serving seems a bit more fair.  I have seen people who truly are intellectually challenged do some pretty amazing and kind things for those around them.  Goodness doesn't depend on intelligence.  Certainly we can all cite some truly heinous acts by some of the most intelligent people in history.

You are ABSOLUTELY correct that people get worse in groups though.  100% fact check true.  Past a certain point, mob mentality kicks in.  In psychology, you have the "bystander effect."  The more people around, the less willing any of them are to help.  Definitely a real thing.  I think that's why social media in general has been so destructive.  Everyone has become so interconnected that they can find hundreds and thousands of people who think the same as them, and they collectively group up and end up ignoring all other views and trying to steamroll anyone who doesn't say what they want.  If people get dumber in groups....and modern technology has increased group size from ~120 people to literally hundreds of thousands.....well....look at how awful people treat each other on social media.

 

Also, sorry, totally not trying to derail the thread, just....this is actually a good convo and nobody is angry and it's very nice.

[Ring3r]

19 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

As long as they are properly differentiated somehow...

Language is such an interesting topic. There are concepts....ways of thinking....that are language specific.  Stuff that, if you don't know the other language, do not correctly translate. Very fascinating....language is such a great tool but it also hobbles interaction between cultures because it influences how people can express themselves, and then translation errors compound those problems.  Super interesting stuff.  One example is French.  They have an actual government organization that decides what words to officially include from other cultures, and what words that are sacrosanct in French.  It seems silly on first view but it isn't.  Things do not translate directly.

[frenin]

7 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

So you agree that Ned taking Reek accomplished nothing? (Short of like, Bran warging into him to defeat the great other dragon or whatever)

It achieved peace for a decade. There's that.

Sure Ned and Robert had other plans for the boy tho.

[The Wolves]

Cersei getting more hate than Jaime, Tywin and Tyrion does have some measure of sexism to it. 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

55 minutes ago, frenin said:

It achieved peace for a decade. There's that.

Sure Ned and Robert had other plans for the boy tho.

It was more the fact that he was so utterly crushed that achieved peace, the fact that the fleet was ready when Theon returned indicated that Balon would have gone through his retarded invasion of the North anyway sooner or later and would have been willing to sacrifice Theon for his empty crown. 

 

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

It was more the fact that he was so utterly crushed that achieved peace, the fact that the fleet was ready when Theon returned indicated that Balon would have gone through his retarded invasion of the North anyway sooner or later and would have been willing to sacrifice Theon for his empty crown. 

 

Likely. 

Then again having your fleet ready during a Civil War is a must do.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

13 minutes ago, frenin said:

Likely. 

Then again having your fleet ready during a Civil War is a must do.

Not necessarely since the other kingdoms generally leave the Iron Islands alone when there is a big war on Westeros when the Ironborn stay neutral, unless the Iron Islands started raiding or invading them first. 

The Iron Islands' lack of ressources, poorness and the sea distance as well as more pressing issues and threats on the mainland make them an target that's not worth attacking, it's just not worth the trouble unless it's to put an end to the Ironborn's shenanigans. 

So Balon could have chosen to stay neutral and no one would have bothered to try to force him to choose a side or attack him.

[frenin]

5 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Not necessarely since the other kingdoms generally leave the Iron Islands alone when there is a big war on Westeros when the Ironborn stay neutral, unless the Iron Islands started raiding or invading them first. 

The Iron Islands' lack of ressources, poorness and the sea distance as well as more pressing issues and threats on the mainland make them an target that's not worth attacking, it's just not worth the trouble unless it's to put an end to the Ironborn's shenanigans. 

So Balon could have chosen to stay neutral and no one would have bothered to try to force him to choose a side or attack him.

Balon's son rode with Robb Stark, anyone would have had an eye on him.

Irregardless having your fleet ready during war is something a cautious man would do, granted Balon is stupid so he was likely going to attack anyway but.