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Do you think that the fact Jaime, Tyrion and even Tywin (to an extent) are beloved by the fandom while Cersei is hated indicates some sexism?


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5 minutes ago, frenin said:

Balon's son rode with Robb Stark, anyone would have had an eye on him.

Irregardless having your fleet ready during war is something a cautious man would do, granted Balon is stupid so he was likely going to attack anyway but.

Anyone but Balon himself. Even before Theon returned to the Iron Islands Balon and his uncles believed that he had become "green" and "wolfish", and the fact that Balon had his fleet prepared isn't a good sign for Theon's well-being if Robb hadn't allowed him to return home.  

 

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43 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Anyone but Balon himself. Even before Theon returned to the Iron Islands Balon and his uncles believed that he had become "green" and "wolfish", and the fact that Balon had his fleet prepared isn't a good sign for Theon's well-being if Robb hadn't allowed him to return home.  

 

Balon himself would have had an eye put on him. (Balon).

Since Theon rode with Robb, that made Balon a potential target.

The fact that he had his fleet ready can signify multiple things. Which is the point.

 

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Just now, frenin said:

Balon himself would have had an eye put on him. (Balon).

Since Theon rode with Robb, that made Balon a potential target.

The fact that he had his fleet ready can signify multiple things. Which is the point.

 

I very strongly doubt that Theon could be used as a leverage against Balon, if he was readying himself to go to war against the North while Theon may not have the opportunity to come back and had already such a low expectation of his son then I think that he was prepared to sacrifice him for his plans.

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13 hours ago, Ring3r said:

I sort of agree, although I think "stupid" might not be the right word for it.  People are inherently self-serving seems a bit more fair.  I have seen people who truly are intellectually challenged do some pretty amazing and kind things for those around them.  Goodness doesn't depend on intelligence.  Certainly we can all cite some truly heinous acts by some of the most intelligent people in history.

 

Neither does stupidity depend on intelligence. By stupidity, I mean "actions that are eventually harmful or self-defeating". Very intelligent people can, and will, do stupid things simply because they misinterpret situation, do not realize (or care about) the long-term consequences, or make decisions based on emotions. Which is basically what we see in ASoIaF: Tywin's pettiness destroyed his family and his legacy, Ned trusting Littlefinger ended in his death (though he may have died anyway), Aerys' insecurities led to downfall of Targaryen dynasty... in short, intelligence is a measure of potential, but that potential can be misused...

It is true that people are often self-serving, but that can sometimes be a good thing. Tywin is one of the most self-serving people in Westeros, yet both his tenures as a Hand were reasonably successful (though nothing extraordinarily good).

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On 10/27/2022 at 8:48 PM, Ring3r said:

There's no cut-off for history, IMO.  If you're hearing about something, it's already happened, and the person or group relating that information to you has already put their spin on it.  Nothing is ever simple....that's why people get masters degrees and doctorates in history.  Parsing out the truth of what happened in the past is very difficult and requires research, cross referencing multiple sources, understanding the ins and outs of the language at the time to avoid misinterpretation etc.  It's extremely complex.  If it wasn't, everyone would just read a history book and know exactly how things played out.

Word, but if theres no cut off for history then in current events we can see whats going on despite the spin. So, Afghanistan. We were there to combat terrorism, but really it was for resources and to get this big ass nation in the center of the world to join Americas sphere of influence. 40 years ago and the Russians did the exact same for the same reasons. Roughly a thousand years ago, the Mongols took Afghanistan also, for pretty much the same reason. Now idk if Alex the great was looking for oil, but im willing to bet his takeover of Afghanistan was still similar to the later invasions

On 10/27/2022 at 8:48 PM, Ring3r said:

You're misunderstanding the point about judging....I couldn't care what Richard I feels either, he's dead.  That's not the point that people are trying to make.  Taking a simplified viewpoint on things and not considering context doesn't do historical people a disservice - they're dead.  But it does do YOU a disservice, because you end up missing a lot of important contextual information that is important when truly understanding how things happened, why they happened, etc.  It's not about paying respect to people in the past at all - it's about being intellectually rigorous...understanding the setting and the reasons for things, even things you disagree with, and knowing that today's humans, you and me and everyone else included, would very likely have behaved similarly if living in that time.

Whats there to understand? Its ignorance. Why did Egyptians build triangles and take brains out of noses? I dont fucking know, and I fundamentally can not understand. If I was there would I help build the Pyramids? I guess, its better then a date with the crocs in the Nile.

On 10/27/2022 at 8:48 PM, Ring3r said:

People in the middle ages didn't wish they were Greek.  They did respect and venerate the written works of some of the finest philosophers from that time period, that's absolutely true....but they also viewed their culture and Gods as sacrilage.  Same with the US founding fathers. Yes, they borrowed some ideas from Roman philosophy, but they also included philosophical viewpoints from all over then-modern Europe, and actually came up with some original stuff themselves.

Lol word. I mean, in the middle ages they thought Jesus was getting resurrected any day now so I think leaching each other like Zeus told the Greeks to do when people have like a light headache or whatever was only supposed to be a 15 minute thing. 

On 10/27/2022 at 8:48 PM, Ring3r said:

I understand your point of view but I think you're oversimplifying things and not trying to put yourself in the shoes of somebody from whatever time period you're examining (and I get why, it's uncomfortable to try and put yourself in the shoes of people who you very much disagree with on topics you consider important), but the truth is....ALL of us....if living in a different time period, would be subject to influences we cannot possibly imagine, and we would likely behave very similarly to people in the past....because people have never changed.  Circumstances and technology have....but people haven't.  IMO :)

People are still people, agreed. Homo sapiens and the like. But im pretty sure that no matter when and where, Ill behave like Hugorfonics. Now, if I was from the third reich Id think that Id have been killed by the gestapo already, or put into some sort of camp. I know what is considered wrong and right, we're all homo sapiens and this part of human history falls short

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On 10/29/2022 at 3:28 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Why did Egyptians build triangles and take brains out of noses? I dont fucking know, and I fundamentally can not understand. If I was there would I help build the Pyramids? I guess, its better then a date with the crocs in the Nile.

Well supposedly the pyramids, as well as being tombs for the pharaohs, also line up with the stars or something. As for the brain thing, it was for mummification purposes. The Egyptians saw the heart as being where the soul and things were, so not much importance was attached to the brain. These religious practices may seem strange to us, but I bet the Ancient Egyptians would find many things we do now just as strange, if not stranger.

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17 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Whats there to understand? Its ignorance.

People are still people, agreed. Homo sapiens and the like. But im pretty sure that no matter when and where, Ill behave like Hugorfonics.

I know what is considered wrong and right, we're all homo sapiens and this part of human history falls short

The folly in this is incredible.  Middle-age Hugorfonics would not resemble modern-day Hugorfonics who will not resemble 25th century Mars-dwelling cyborg Hugorfonics.

What you consider right and wrong is fundamentally a product of the value systems of the day.  Some of those value systems are contentious - slavery in the 18th and 19th century for example - whereas slavery in Ancient Rome was universally accepted and slavery today is universally condemned.

Ideas are not intrinsic or eternal, they have to be developed, expounded, disseminated, debated and accepted.  A Celt or Inca would not have turned a hair at human sacrifice and Celtic/Inca Hugorfonics would not have thought any differently because he wouldn't have the framework to do so.

Future you will find you an ignorant barbarian, not a kindred spirit, particularly if he mirrors your hubris.

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54 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

whereas slavery in Ancient Rome was universally accepted

What's odd though is that they seemed to look down on actual slave traders. In the contract of societas, normally the contract would end when one of the parties sued another, but slaver traders who had formed partnerships could sue each other without ending the contract, because they were considered 'disreputable' or something to that effect. Same with tax-farmers.

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4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

but I bet the Ancient Egyptians would find many things we do now just as strange, if not stranger.

I think even the ancient Egyptians found the ancienter Egyptians to be strange. Like, spending your entire gdp on triangles is strange. And for sure, this is the way the Pharoah can enjoy his after life so I guess it makes sense for him, but for everyone else they must too think it strange. Or maybe not, idk, this whole realm of scientifically pulling brains out of ears is just too strange for me to begin to comprehend

4 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

What you consider right and wrong is fundamentally a product of the value systems of the day.  Some of those value systems are contentious - slavery in the 18th and 19th century for example - whereas slavery in Ancient Rome was universally accepted and slavery today is universally condemned.

Ideas are not intrinsic or eternal, they have to be developed, expounded, disseminated, debated and accepted.  A Celt or Inca would not have turned a hair at human sacrifice and Celtic/Inca Hugorfonics would not have thought any differently because he wouldn't have the framework to do so.

Bullshit. We know people like Washington wrestled with slavery because there was a printing press and everyone knew hes going down in history so all his letters and stuff has been saved and studied. We have no idea what went down in Ancient Rome, short of like whatever Cicero or Marcus Aurelius has to say about slavery. But the idea that you can hold another human being in bondage is evil, any human being would recognize that. Especially if the slave master acts like they do. Ditto with human sacrificing. How can you act like yould keep your composure when their snatching your child to sacrafice at the alter? Yes, ignorance would like keep you praying for the harvest or whatever but its your kid being killed like Indiana Jones II. Whos hairs not turning?

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9 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I think even the ancient Egyptians found the ancienter Egyptians to be strange. Like, spending your entire gdp on triangles is strange. And for sure, this is the way the Pharoah can enjoy his after life so I guess it makes sense for him, but for everyone else they must too think it strange. Or maybe not, idk, this whole realm of scientifically pulling brains out of ears is just too strange for me to begin to comprehend

Bullshit. We know people like Washington wrestled with slavery because there was a printing press and everyone knew hes going down in history so all his letters and stuff has been saved and studied. We have no idea what went down in Ancient Rome, short of like whatever Cicero or Marcus Aurelius has to say about slavery. But the idea that you can hold another human being in bondage is evil, any human being would recognize that. Especially if the slave master acts like they do. Ditto with human sacrificing. How can you act like yould keep your composure when their snatching your child to sacrafice at the alter? Yes, ignorance would like keep you praying for the harvest or whatever but its your kid being killed like Indiana Jones II. Whos hairs not turning?

I don't wanna pile on so don't take it that way but I think the trees have eyes is pickin' up what I'm layin down. ALL of us would love to believe that we'd never fall for cultural stuff in the past that we obviously do not agree with in the present but the facts of history simply do not support that idea.  Some really horrific things have been done by humans and every single one of them had an internal justification for it, based on the things they'd lived.  They were wrong....but they were also a product of their age.

In many cases, those things were done by people who believed that they had advanced....they were smarter, had better judgement, were superior...to the people who came before them.  Surely you can see how that pattern of thought could result in disaster?  Thinking ones' self superior.  It's a very small step from "I know better" to "those who disagree with me are subhuman and I'm doing the world a favor."

The problem is....those people were not actually better.  We have not advanced, except in technology.  Yes, our current world would seem like sci-fi to anyone from the past but if they could overcome the language barrier, they wouldn't need much time to fit right in, unless they were very unusual.

I'm trying to avoid.....lets say...political topics, but you brought up a subject that I think, if everyone can stay mature adults PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, has merit.  In the past, there have been multiple cultures that practiced human sacrifice, and sometimes with children.  Like it or not, those people had justifications that they absolutely believed in, that led them to that behavior. They thought they were doing good.  Our own culture (I'm assuming you're American so forgive me if you are not) has aborted over 60 million fetuses in the name of reproductive rights. Several orders of magnitude more potential humans. 

Can any of us predict, 1000 years from now, what people will think of that?  Did we do it right?  Did we do it wrong?  I certainly am not wise enough to know the answer to that, even though I've examined both sides of the argument.

I don't usually do quotes, but there's just a perfect one for this, and it comes from the unlikely source of Hollywood.  "Don't worry, I'm not making the same mistakes again."  "No, you're making all new ones."

The chief problem with humans is, IMO, we think we know things.












Really hoping I don't get banned, hated on, excommunicated, etc. Trying to take a balanced view.

 

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3 hours ago, Ring3r said:

In the past, there have been multiple cultures that practiced human sacrifice, and sometimes with children.  Like it or not, those people had justifications that they absolutely believed in, that led them to that behavior. They thought they were doing good.

Take the Aztecs, for example. They thought that if they didn't sacrifice enough people, the world would end. So presumably they all believed they were doing the right thing when the priests killed someone.

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17 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Bullshit. We know people like Washington wrestled with slavery because there was a printing press and everyone knew hes going down in history so all his letters and stuff has been saved and studied. We have no idea what went down in Ancient Rome, short of like whatever Cicero or Marcus Aurelius has to say about slavery. 

There are a vast number of authors and sources from ancient world cultures, not just one or two Romans.  You won't find a William Willberforce or an abolitionist movement because neither existed.  Not in Ancient Rome, Greece, Persia, Egypt or anywhere.  The Romans wrote a lot about their slave system and the numerous slave rebellions, they wrote copiously about social and political unrest and the fall of the Republic, but not about the moral evil of slavery and the abolition movement.

Then this new idea came along called Christianity which proved immensely popular, particularly among slave and freedmen because it preached the universal brotherhood of man and things began to change, slowly, glacially but the idea that men should not own other men as property began it's long torturous path to universal acceptance (modern slavery, deportation of uighurs and other problem groups aside).

17 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

But the idea that you can hold another human being in bondage is evil, any human being would recognize that.

You only say this because you have been taught it.  Ancient Greeks, Romans, the Vikings who traded the slavs in Byzantium in the middle ages (and where the word "slave" enters the English language from) so they could be sold in the Muslim world, thought differently.

It's why ideas are the most powerful forces in human history, because they change so much.

You would have been a kind master who treated his slaves well.  You would have seen this as part of your responsibility towards your property but equally as a moral obligation to treat these members of your household well, to be a firm but kind master rather than an arbitrary and cruel one.  You would have allowed them to save up and purchase their freedom and you might well have manumitted your remaining slaves on your death (provided your finances were in good order and you were not bankrupting your heirs by doing so).  You would recognize this as your duty and a reasonable way to act because you are a moral man but you would not be decrying the evils of slavery because you wouldn't be the person then that you are today.

What makes you "you" is not just your DNA, it's the values and ideas we take in from our parents, our society and our culture.  Why do child soldiers kill with so little compunction?  Because they have been taught to do so and don't recognise it as wrong.  Take them out of that environment and teach them differently and you can reshape them.  But what if there is no other environment in which to raise them and no different ideas to teach them?  They won't become liberal democrats with an aversion to violence.  Little Hugorfonics sitting on his father's knee in Sparta would learn his moral duty to be a warrior, not to pity and free the helots.

18 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ditto with human sacrificing. How can you act like yould keep your composure when their snatching your child to sacrafice at the alter? Yes, ignorance would like keep you praying for the harvest or whatever but its your kid being killed like Indiana Jones II. Whos hairs not turning?

Losing your own child would be devastating but if your belief system was that this was necessary for the good or survival of your people you would acquiesce.  If there's a famine, thousands will die, but if one sacrifice propitiates the god(s) and brings rain it's a moral act.  Apocraphyal stories, no doubt, but in the Old Testament God ordered Abraham to sacrifice Isaac purely to test him, and Agamemnon allegedly (in drama) sacrificed his own daughter to propitiate a God and whip up a wind so he could sail his fleet to Troy.  Sacrificing children to the Gods is about as great a taboo as our society and moral code can imagine but if you lived in these societies you would not see it that way.

Interestingly, the Romans, for all their slave-owning tendencies did not hold with human sacrifice and put an end to the Celtic / Druidic practice whenever they conquered (and largely slaughtered) the native Celts.  That must puzzle you if, as human beings, they could recognise one practice as evil but not the other.

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On 10/29/2022 at 4:28 PM, Hugorfonics said:

People are still people, agreed. Homo sapiens and the like. But im pretty sure that no matter when and where, Ill behave like Hugorfonics. Now, if I was from the third reich Id think that Id have been killed by the gestapo already, or put into some sort of camp. I know what is considered wrong and right, we're all homo sapiens and this part of human history falls short

Humans are shaped in large part by experience. You cannot say what you would have been in some other life because you never lived some other life. Had you lived in the Third Reich, you may have gotten killed by Gestapo... or maybe you would have joined it. You have no way of knowing.

23 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Bullshit. We know people like Washington wrestled with slavery because there was a printing press and everyone knew hes going down in history so all his letters and stuff has been saved and studied. We have no idea what went down in Ancient Rome, short of like whatever Cicero or Marcus Aurelius has to say about slavery. But the idea that you can hold another human being in bondage is evil, any human being would recognize that. Especially if the slave master acts like they do. Ditto with human sacrificing. How can you act like yould keep your composure when their snatching your child to sacrafice at the alter? Yes, ignorance would like keep you praying for the harvest or whatever but its your kid being killed like Indiana Jones II. Whos hairs not turning?

Any human being would also recognize that lying is evil, yet modern society has raised lying to a level of worship for the sake of politeness.

It has also been recognized that allowing government control over people's life is evil, yet today's governments are larger than they ever were.

Fact is, the only thing that separates modern humans from those of antiquity is accumulation of knowledge and resources. Everything we do better than them - near-destruction of slavery, no (direct) serfdom - we do because we can afford to do it, not because we are somehow morally superior.

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On 10/30/2022 at 12:48 AM, Ring3r said:

I'm trying to avoid.....lets say...political topics, but you brought up a subject that I think, if everyone can stay mature adults PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, has merit.  In the past, there have been multiple cultures that practiced human sacrifice, and sometimes with children.  Like it or not, those people had justifications that they absolutely believed in, that led them to that behavior. They thought they were doing good.  Our own culture (I'm assuming you're American so forgive me if you are not) has aborted over 60 million fetuses in the name of reproductive rights. Several orders of magnitude more potential humans. 

Can any of us predict, 1000 years from now, what people will think of that?  Did we do it right?  Did we do it wrong?  I certainly am not wise enough to know the answer to that, even though I've examined both sides of the argument.

Lol Jesus. Ok, ill try to be mature here but you guys arent making it easy lol. (although ill take abortions over lying any day). Ok, umm, I see the sorrow here and if your twisting my arm I guess the loss of what could be life, however I do value the freedom of choice more. (I could sell my whole act here but I wont lol). But no doubt, how will the future look at me? How many animals have perished under my fork? 60 million human fetuses, but how many chicken eggs get taken in America? Like, im no angel, I watch NFL and get mad over a miffed punt instead of a concussion, but im not a fucking slaver lol. Like, theres a huge line there that while some vegetarians or NFL players family may think its kinda close, but its really really not. Also, like Richy, I couldnt care less what they gotta say about me nor could I care cuz Ill be dead.

On 10/30/2022 at 9:37 AM, the trees have eyes said:

God ordered Abraham to sacrifice Isaac purely to test him, and Agamemnon allegedly (in drama) sacrificed his own daughter to propitiate a God and whip up a wind so he could sail his fleet to Troy.  Sacrificing children to the Gods is about as great a taboo as our society and moral code can imagine but if you lived in these societies you would not see it that way.

Of course I would! Im as human as they were! (well, imo neither were real) Abrahams sacrifice was the greatest he could commit, thats the level of commitment he showed God and thats what God needed to see, to make sure that Abraham is the real deal. By doing the craziest trial possible.
Agamemnon dragged his feet every second of the way because he, like all parents, love his daughter, but hes also a real piece of shit (see the Iliad) so he decided to fulfill his warlord destiny and caused mad loss and sorrow. And when's all done, his wife murdered him for killing their fucking kid! This shits always serious, as serious as slavery. 

On 10/30/2022 at 9:37 AM, the trees have eyes said:

That must puzzle you if, as human beings, they could recognise one practice as evil but not the other.

Not at all. And the Romans were evil (like every year they threw a parade where they crucified any dog they can find, like who does that? lol) but that doesnt make every Roman evil nor does it make even the evil ones incapable of goodness. For instance, im sure the Gestapo tucked their kids in at night and even read one of their weird German fairytale stories good night, but that doesnt make them not the Gestapo. Im reminded of a quote by idk who lol, some American revolutionary, probably South Carolinian, "I love liberty, I hate equality", so on one side I understand the love of liberty in the face of tyranny, but to say I hate equality is just hate speech. Thats as true in 2022 as in 1776 and whenever the hell Agamemnon is from.

On 10/30/2022 at 2:19 PM, Aldarion said:

Had you lived in the Third Reich, you may have gotten killed by Gestapo... or maybe you would have joined it. You have no way of knowing.

Theres a happy thought, but as you say, no way of knowing

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On 10/31/2022 at 10:49 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Not at all. And the Romans were evil

On 10/31/2022 at 10:49 PM, Hugorfonics said:

but to say I hate equality is just hate speech. Thats as true in 2022 as in 1776 and whenever the hell Agamemnon is from.

The whole point of this discussion has been to highlight the folly of judging people in the past based on ideas and moral codes they had no knowledge of.  I don't know why you find this a hard concept.  Practically every human civilization slaved in some way, some right up until the late 19th century.  Dismissing humanity outside your comfort zone of the present as "evil" or making sweeping statements like "any human being could recognise "x" as wrong, or that you can't see any kind of morality before or even during the middle ages is just lazy and ignorant.  I know you "don't care" if future Hugorfonics dismiss you as evil because you won't be around to tell them you really aren't and don't see yourself that way .....

Hate speech is a modern term.  It's pointless to write human civilizations off as evil because they don't mirror our own belief systems  We have the luxury of sitting atop thousands of years of moral, religious and intellectual thought they didn't.

If the Romans were evil why did they put an end to the Druidic practice of human sacrifice?

It's interesting that you invite me to read The Iliad: why would you bother with anything from the past if you disparage it so much?

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On 11/10/2022 at 4:24 PM, the trees have eyes said:

The whole point of this discussion has been to highlight the folly of judging people in the past based on ideas and moral codes they had no knowledge of.  I don't know why you find this a hard concept. 

Because it doesnt make sense. Ramsays ancestors flayed, the sigil that theyre as proud of as Lannister and its lion is a flayed man, Ramsays dad told him a flayed man holds no secrets. When Ramsay flays we judge, despite the Bolton moral code

On 11/10/2022 at 4:24 PM, the trees have eyes said:

Practically every human civilization slaved in some way, some right up until the late 19th century

And theyre really bad lol. In Amercian history theres loads of senators and such giving passionate speeches on the defense of slavery and its really disgusting. And it may not have been disgusting to some contemporaries, but it most assuredly was to others. Mainly the slaves.

On 11/10/2022 at 4:24 PM, the trees have eyes said:

Dismissing humanity outside your comfort zone of the present as "evil" or making sweeping statements like "any human being could recognise "x" as wrong, or that you can't see any kind of morality before or even during the middle ages is just lazy and ignorant.  I know you "don't care" if future Hugorfonics dismiss you as evil because you won't be around to tell them you really aren't and don't see yourself that way .....

Yea it may be ignorant, Im fine ignoring why nazis say, used a tea spoon when eating their frosted flakes instead of a tablespoon. The rest of their stuff as well. (although I like to think about von Braun. Nazi scientist which means he must have believed in eugenics which is flawed science. So its strange to think that a flawed scientist was still scientifically brilliant enough to you know, get mankind on the moon)
Although Im not really ignorant, the final solution only happened after the germans realized they couldnt feed the pow let alone their own soldiers, so the expendable become extra expendable. Also they wanted to unify the world and such. When examining the cause of evilness evil still comes out, so ill stick to being lazy as well and just judge all of the middle ages and before as well and Ill probably be right 90% of the time.

On 11/10/2022 at 4:24 PM, the trees have eyes said:

Hate speech is a modern term

So is gravity. They had it back then too

On 11/10/2022 at 4:24 PM, the trees have eyes said:

If the Romans were evil why did they put an end to the Druidic practice of human sacrifice?

Because theyre humans and capable of multiple morals. 
Like, come on, every year they crucify puppies! (and put jewelry on geese, which is also pretty fucked up) 

On 11/10/2022 at 4:24 PM, the trees have eyes said:

It's interesting that you invite me to read The Iliad: why would you bother with anything from the past if you disparage it so much?

Idk, I had to read it for highschool lol. 
But I totally love this stuff anyway. History and these epics are interesting as hell, because theyre human, right? Like I watch African safari shows sometimes, I root for the zebra baby to get away, but also kinda for the lion to catch it. Like I dont really care, cuz I just cant relate to a zebra. But say this is the news and its like some kid, oh my heart goes out massively for this rando because as a human I can empathize with how scary staring down a lion is. 
Thats how I look at this subject. Richard I was not a zebra, I can sort of put my shoes into his place and think this guys a dick, granted it does get much easier as time goes by and ideas of democracy and capitalism and socialism and even communism or anarchy is much easier to relate and comprehended then feudalism. 

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1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

You dont think hate speech existed back then? They used to like throw jews down wells, burn pagan communities and enslave their muslim neighbors. But no epithets?

Hate speech didn't exist back then as it does now, no. People were horrible to each other as always but the way it was viewed was completely different. Whereas the way people interact with gravity has remained the same.

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11 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Hate speech didn't exist back then as it does now, no. People were horrible to each other as always but the way it was viewed was completely different. Whereas the way people interact with gravity has remained the same.

The frey and Ironborn call Reeds frogmen and frogeaters. That's hate speech. Cruel insulting and disparaging words used to generalize and demean. Like, that's hate speech which is why the Reeds get visibly upset when their bigotedly insulted by the Walders.

When do you think was the first official day of hate speech? When can we celebrate it's birthday?

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