Do you think that the fact Jaime, Tyrion and even Tywin (to an extent) are beloved by the fandom while Cersei is hated indicates some sexism?

[Corvo the Crow]

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[sifth]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

Sorry but no sexism at all. If there is any sexism at all here, it would be on GRRM's part, making the stupid, cruel and mad evil character a female and not a male.

I mean GRRM has made plenty of characters who are male and 100% evil. Joffrey, Ramsay, The Mountain, and Vic come to mind.

[Corvo the Crow]

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[Fencer]

3 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

We should apply modern morality when judging situations like that and if someone killed his wife for cheating on him in the present day, he would go to jail, because cheating is not considered a justifiable reason to kill someone except in Muslim countries from the Third World like Afghanistan.

Please clarify your logic.  We should apply modern western morality to a fictional situation that is clearly structured to not follow modern western morality because modern western morality is singularly "right" even though (as you point out) there are modern cultures in which the behaviors you decry are acceptable?

Personally, I like Stannis and respect Tywin because they are competent.  Jamie is on a path to self-redemption, and is (was) competent in what he does best--and had the self-awareness to understand the deep flaws in the system that led him to become the king-slayer.  Tyrion also displays great competency in his political skills and ability to develop strategy, and at times, altruism. 

But once we see inside Cersie's head, we see only self-serving arrogance compounded by both a complete lack of self-awareness and incompetence.  I understand and sometimes enjoy her character, but feel no sympathy for her.

[Springwatch]

The more I read this thread, the more I think the OP is on to something. Fans assume the worst of Cersei, and the best of Jaime and Tyrion. Maybe Cersei pushed Melara down a well, but she probably didn't (she believes the death is a proof of Maggy's powers of prophecy, which it wouldn't be if she did it herself). And on the boys' side - Jaime threatens Catelyn and Edmure with the black cells of Casterley Rock, and Tyrion memorises the faces of Cat's allies so they can be punished later. Fans say they don't mean it. I think they do, because the Lannister way (as established by Tywin) uses both gold and violence to maintain dominance ('a Lannister always pays his debts').

I doubt it's sexism, or not entirely - it's mostly how the author's set them up - he's given Tyrion and Jaime far more 'agreeableness' (to the reader at least).

Another thing about Cersei, she's in flux. She started out a mean girl, and ends up somewhere very dark, but what happened in between? She threatens a lot, and she's accused of a lot, but I get a feeling she descends very quickly after Robert's death. And then the Faith gets hold of her - she will not be the same after that. It won't be good, but it won't be the same either.

[frenin]

 

10 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Maybe Cersei pushed Melara down a well, but she probably didn't (she believes the death is a proof of Maggy's powers of prophecy, which it wouldn't be if she did it herself).

Does she now? It doesn't seem so to me and she does remember her accusing dead eyes.

 

16 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

And on the boys' side - Jaime threatens Catelyn and Edmure with the black cells of Casterley Rock, and Tyrion memorises the faces of Cat's allies so they can be punished later. Fans say they don't mean it. I think they do, because the Lannister way (as established by Tywin) uses both gold and violence to maintain dominance ('a Lannister always pays his debts').

Indeed, I think that Jaime meant every word he said to Edmure, including the one about butchering his baby. Nor do I know why would Tyrion lie about punishing Cat's allies.

Still, Cersei had infants killed, like she was some kind of biblical punishment. 

I agree with @Corvo the Crow, if there's someone who should have fingers pointed at is Martin.

Martin went out of his way to publicly absolve Jaime of his worst deed, Jaime who didn't give a single fuck about his kids in the first three books, tries to kill Bran not thinking on his and Cersei's necks but on those children he barely had thoughts for. And since the fans can't find any prior action of Jaime in which he tries to care, they embrace that justification. Meanwhile and also,  Martin says that the only redeeming quality Cersei has in the books, her love for hhis children, is actually just due narcissism.

 

Still salty about that.

 

 

 

[Ring3r]

Short answer: No.  Cersie is a psychopath.  She's devoid of empathy and does nothing but use those around her.  The only reason she even cares about her children is that she sees them as extensions of herself, and she treats them accordingly.

Her siblings are both extremely flawed but not without a conscience.  She does not have one.  Jaime is in the middle of a redemption arc and theres a good argument to be made that the majority of bad things he's done were because Cersie wanted him to.  She has been murdering her friends out of convenience since she was a pre-teen.  She is the definition of a monster.

[James West]

Tywin and Jaime are bad men.  Cersei and Tyrion are not as bad.  Yet.  Tyrion is liked by most people.  Tywin and Cersei are not so liked.  Jaime is a polarizing figure.  I don't like Jaime but some others do.  

I have noted over the years that the people who adore Jaime are the same ones who dislike Daenerys and the Targaryens.  It is also observable that Pro-Daenerys people like myself hate Jaime.  I don't think what he did to Bran even matters.  The only thing that matters to us when it comes to Jaime is whether we like Daenerys or not.  I have a liking for the Targaryens because I like Daenerys.  

Cersei killed another girl in her teen years.  She killed Melara.  But be fair.  Arya started killing at a younger age.  Arya shows little if any guilt and no remorse.  How can you really hate on Cersei and like Arya at the same time.  Bronn is a much worse person than the Lannisters except Jaime.  Jaime is more evil than Sandor.  

Sexism? Yes it is a factor for many.  Which family you like is more of a factor.  

[Craving Peaches]

2 hours ago, James West said:

How can you really hate on Cersei and like Arya at the same time.

Because so far Arya has not killed any babies. If she does she will be just as bad as Cersei in my books.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Because so far Arya has not killed any babies. If she does she will be just as bad as Cersei in my books.

Nor has Arya abused her friends or members of her family, nor spitefully bullied others just for the sake of it, nor given anyone to be used as test subjects by a mad scientist such as Qyburn.

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Nor has Arya abused her friends or members of her family, nor spitefully bullied others just for the sake of it, nor given anyone to be used as test subjects by a mad scientist such as Qyburn.

Also Arya doesn't just start killing people with no external influence. She is removed from her family, recruited by the Faceless men etc. But Cersei just choses to kill people to start with, as seen with her 'friend' that she killed. And the way she treated Tyrion when he was a baby etc. She is cruel and murderous by default, unlike Arya.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

15 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Also Arya doesn't just start killing people with no external influence. She is removed from her family, recruited by the Faceless men etc. But Cersei just choses to kill people to start with, as seen with her 'friend' that she killed. And the way she treated Tyrion when he was a baby etc. She is cruel and murderous by default, unlike Arya.

And extremely petty and spiteful. I can't see Arya bullying and humiliating someone who's just trying to warn her about the consequences of her choices and to give her advices; nor throwing wine at others nor spreading calumnies such as Cersei did about Shireen after Stannis told the kingdom after the incest affair, nor coming to see Margaery in prison just to gloat and taunt her.

[direpupy]

4 hours ago, James West said:

 I have noted over the years that the people who adore Jaime are the same ones who dislike Daenerys and the Targaryens.  It is also observable that Pro-Daenerys people like myself hate Jaime.  

I disagree, i have seen many people who like myself like both Jaime and Daenerys. Sure there are a lot of people who dislike the enemy of there favorite caracter but its 50/50 between those and people who are like me.

[frenin]

You know what, I'm starting to think OP is on to something too.

[Corvo the Crow]

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[Corvo the Crow]

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[Ring3r]

10 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Talking about sexism, why does no one ever bring the topic of Ygritte's sexual abuse of Jon?

Probably because most people don't consider seduction sexual abuse?  Particularly when she's from a culture that explicitly considers sparing a female captive as a sign that you like them.

The entire celibacy concept for the Nights Watch is viewed by their own leadership as a very bendable rule, since it's widely accepted that the men visit the mole town women on the regular.  As long as it's not resulting in kids, they don't really care.  Jon does struggle with his desires and he's very much like Ned, taking oaths 100% literally....but Ygritte didn't abuse him. She was one of the few bright spots that he's had in his entire life.

My take, anyways.  Courting and seduction are necessary and normal parts of being human, and the behaviors are highly situation-dependent.  We can't just pretend like every advance a person makes is some kind of crime.  Babies aren't gonna make themselves and I don't think we can rely on women accidentally slipping and falling onto a man's lap if we're gonna maintain a population

[BalerionTheCat]

Unlike Cersei, Tywin didn't kill his best friend at 14 because she dreamed of marrying Jaime. Tywin was bad. But not as bad as Cersei. He would be as hated as her if he was more developed. Jaime was abused by her. She ruined his life. Tyrion is not that good a guy. But he is funny. More than Cersei. Must explain some. I believe some hate him too. I'm not very fond of him either.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

35 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Unlike Cersei, Tywin didn't kill his best friend at 14 because she dreamed of marrying Jaime. Tywin was bad. But not as bad as Cersei. He would be as hated as her if he was more developed. Jaime was abused by her. She ruined his life. Tyrion is not that good a guy. But he is funny. More than Cersei. Must explain some. I believe some hate him too. I'm not very fond of him either.

Yes, and Tywin's relationship and love for Joanna were completely genuine, you have to give him that. And even his relation with Tygett was far from being as hostile and toxic as any relation between his children.

A far cry of how abusive and toxic Cersei and Jaime's relationship is, though even with Cersei's abuse and nefast influencd Jaime is at fault in this relation too, he did agree to the incest and fucked Cersei in a sept in front of their son's grave. Even knowing how monstruous and twisted Joffrey was it was very messed up.

[Corvo the Crow]

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