Do you think that the fact Jaime, Tyrion and even Tywin (to an extent) are beloved by the fandom while Cersei is hated indicates some sexism?

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

It obviously hints towards it, not that i argued that he raped or something like that so the willingness is odd.

I mean they both agreed. I don't known and I don't care who choose the place and time. This is a futile point.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Besides your quote tells about their bond, not about who led who.

Only she explains it that way. She is kind of the mind of both bodies.

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't think it's that stupid to believe that killing for ego reasons is more petty then killing for politics. 

Fully agree.

[frenin]

32 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

People make stupid arguments all the time. And I don't think it's that stupid to believe that killing for ego reasons is more petty then killing for politics. 

 

When the killings are babies, yeat it is that stupid.

 

23 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

Jaime is actually a competent swordsman, and never pretends to be a great ruler or a leader. And sure, he starts off self-centered and conceited, but after losing his arm he actually gets character development .

The times Jaime is a competent swordsman,  he is barely a character. He only becomes that once he loses his hand and becomes incompetent. This is clearly at odds with what you're saying. 

Cersei did get rid of Ned, which is competent enough.

 

23 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

but after losing his arm he actually gets character development and becomes a far more honest, and even honorable and decent person.

Yeah well, this is a matter of taste, so I'll not delve into that.

Certainly Jaime having violent dreams about what he'd like to do to Cersei for cheating on him doesn't sound decent ish but.

 

23 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

I mean, he does try to give Blackfish an offer of honourable surrender, he does try to fulfill his promise to Catelyn.

Nothing he tries to do with  the Tullys is him fullfilling his promise to Cat. Quite the opposite actually. If he tried to fullfil his promise to Cat, he would have surrendered himself to Brynden, that's not what he does.

And he ends threatening Catelyn's future nephew with a trebuchet and trying to capture the Blackfish and sending  Edmure to a cell in Casterly Rock even when he promised to treat him with honor.

 

23 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

Meanwhile, the only character development Cersei gets is a continuous downward spiral.

They both love self pitying and wax and whine constantly about how unfair the word is to them.

 

23 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

That is just normal noble conceit. I hardly think it implies Jaime thinks himself next Tywin.

It's evidence of how good ol Jaime believes he's a clever ruler.

I mean, his whole time in the Riverlands proves it. He's literally pissed when his aunt tells him that he's not Tywin, Tyrion is and he tries to disprove her.

 

 

23 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

What Cersei doesn't have is character development

Oh, she certainly does. Her whole slow implosion is character development.

Character development is not trying, emphasis on trying, to be good. While remaining a self absorbed, corrupt asshole.

 

23 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

other than her love for her children, but considering how said love indirectly caused Joffrey's death, that hardly counts.

How so?

Her and Robert spoiling Joffrey rotten is the cause of his death, her loving him isn't.

 

@BalerionTheCat

 

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Only she explains it that way. She is kind of the mind of both bodies.

She doesn't say that tho. 

And it's kinda hard to swallow that you don't  want to absolve Jaime when are pretending he's a drone moved by remote control.

 

 

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

And it's kinda hard to swallow that you don't  want to absolve Jaime when are pretending he's a drone moved by remote control.

I never pretended he is (was) a drone. That was your expression. Of course she is not a skin changer controlling his body.

But he was, in their youth, kind of persistently bullied by her, persistently pushed to follow her decisions. And it became a submission. It was she who decided he would join the KG. Not him. Doesn't mean he didn't do things that were bad without her involvement. But he finally escaped her lead. And he tries to be a better man since.

[frenin]

5 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I never pretended he is (was) a drone. That was your expression. Of course she is not a skin changer controlling his body.

No, you're pretending he has no agency whatsoever that he has no will of his own.

How can you argue you don't believe him a drone.

 

6 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

But he was, in their youth, kind of persistently bullied by her, persistently pushed to follow her decisions. And it became a submission. It was she who decided he would join the KG. Not him. Doesn't mean he didn't do things that were bad without her involvement. But he finally escaped her lead. And he tries to be a better man since.

He was never bullied by her, he was teased.  Like two siblings tease each other. It never became submission, Jaime wanted Cersei and viceversa. 

It was him who agreed with the decision. That is will, that is agency.

The latter, well, press x to doubt.

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

How can you argue you don't believe him a drone.

No. And I don't see how I can say it otherwise!

1 hour ago, frenin said:

He was never bullied by her, he was teased

No, it has nothing to do with teasing. Teasing is a concept stranger to Cersei. Don't you do see the monster she is? Facing another person I would not use this explanation for Jaime. Cersei is all the difference.

[frenin]

4 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

No. And I don't see how I can say it otherwise!

You're saying that Cersei is the mind of the two bodies and that Jaime was submited to her. 

 

6 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Teasing is a concept stranger to Cersei.

Teasing is an easy concept to everyone.

 

6 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Don't you do see the monster she is?

I see the monsters all siblings are,  I still consider all of them capable of teasing.

 

 

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

You're saying that Cersei is the mind of the two bodies and that Jaime was submited to her. 

No. I'm saying Cersei imagine herself in control of Jaime. And when she wants something she insists until he yields. Possibly utilizing sex if necessary. But  of course it's not. Jaime may refuse. Has the ultimate choice. But often it's easier to yield. The more he yields, the more she believes she controls.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Teasing is an easy concept to everyone.

She prefers imposing her will, showing her power. Teasing is kind of pleading. Not her.

[frenin]

2 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

No. I'm saying Cersei imagine herself in control of Jaime. 

She doesn't tho.

 

3 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

And when she wants something she insists until he yields.

The only one time was with the KG thing.

 

4 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

But often it's easier to yield. The more he yields, the more she believes she controls.

Jaime yielded one time tho.

 

4 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

She prefers imposing her will, showing her power. Teasing is kind of pleading. Not her.

Except that challenging each other and whatnot, it's texbook teasing.

Before being a monster, she was a  child.

[Arthur Peres]

I don't get why people are so willing to accept Jaime's "redemption" when he has done nothing in this direction.

On the contrary he seems to be getting worse.

We see him bragging about his missdeeds with Ilyn Payne:

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“Do you see that window, ser?” Jaime used a sword to point. “That was Raymun Darry’s bedchamber. Where King Robert slept, on our return from Winterfell. Ned Stark’s daughter had run off after her wolf savaged Joff, you’ll recall. My sister wanted the girl to lose a hand. The old penalty, for striking one of the blood royal. Robert told her she was cruel and mad. They fought for half the night … well, Cersei fought, and Robert drank. Past midnight, the queen summoned me inside. The king was passed out snoring on the Myrish carpet. I asked my sister if she wanted me to carry him to bed. She told me I should carry her to bed, and shrugged out of her robe. I took her on Raymun Darry’s bed after stepping over Robert. If His Grace had woken I would have killed him there and then. He would not have been the first king to die upon my sword … but you know that story, don’t you?” He slashed at a tree branch, shearing it in half. “As I was fucking her, Cersei cried, ‘I want.’ I thought that she meant me, but it was the Stark girl that she wanted, maimed or dead.” The things I do for love. “It was only by chance that Stark’s own men found the girl before me. If I had come on her first …”

 

Still refusing to accept that he murdered Aerys and too proud to take the truth..

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“Terms require trust. The Freys murdered guests beneath their roof, and you, well … I mean no offense, my love, but you did kill a certain king you had sworn to protect.”

“And I’ll kill the Blackfish if he does not yield.” His tone was harsher than he’d intended, but he was in no mood for having Aerys Targaryen thrown in his face.

 

Breaking every single promise he made to Cat.

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“I assume you have returned to fulfill the oaths you swore my niece,” Ser Brynden said. “As I recall, you promised Catelyn her daughters in return for your freedom.”

His mouth tightened. “Yet I do not see the girls. Where are they?” Must he make me say it? “I do not have them.”

Mocked the one Lannisters that is actually trying to make a redemption in Lancel.

His actions show the true man. A complete bastard that commited high treason, caused a massive civil war and still has the gall to pretend to be the ofended party in all of this. He does not care about the damage he caused, he is not trying to make up for that. He does not seek redemption cause does not even reconize his mistakes. He just complain about mean stares that he receives..

 

 

[Aldarion]

12 hours ago, frenin said:

The times Jaime is a competent swordsman,  he is barely a character. He only becomes that once he loses his hand and becomes incompetent. This is clearly at odds with what you're saying. 

It isn't. My point is that he always has something going on for him - when he stops being a competent swordsman, he begins to change.

12 hours ago, frenin said:

Nothing he tries to do with  the Tullys is him fullfilling his promise to Cat. Quite the opposite actually. If he tried to fullfil his promise to Cat, he would have surrendered himself to Brynden, that's not what he does.

And he ends threatening Catelyn's future nephew with a trebuchet and trying to capture the Blackfish and sending  Edmure to a cell in Casterly Rock even when he promised to treat him with honor.

I don't think he ever promised her anything regarding Brynden or Tullys.

As for threats, does he ever actually send Edmure to those cells? I don't think so. Words don't matter. He wanted answers, and frankly, a threat is a much more humane way of doing so than torture is.

12 hours ago, frenin said:

They both love self pitying and wax and whine constantly about how unfair the word is to them.

 

Oh, they do. But Jaime actually does things other than whine, whereas Cersei... doesn't really. And when she does, it is always a catastrophe of one sort or the other.

12 hours ago, frenin said:

It's evidence of how good ol Jaime believes he's a clever ruler.

I mean, his whole time in the Riverlands proves it. He's literally pissed when his aunt tells him that he's not Tywin, Tyrion is and he tries to disprove her.

I do not recall Jaime having internal monologue like this:

Quote

If Tywin Lannister was truly dead, no one was safe... least of all her son upon his throne. When
the lion falls the lesser beasts move in: the jackals and the vultures and the feral dogs. They
would try to push her aside, as they always had. She would need to move quickly, as she had
when Robert died. This might be the work of Stannis Baratheon, through some catspaw. It could
well be the prelude to another attack upon the city. She hoped it was. Let him come. I will smash
him, just as Father did, and this time he will die. Stannis did not frighten her, no more than Mace
Tyrell did. No one frightened her. She was a daughter of the Rock, a lion. There will be no more
talk of forcing me to wed again. Casterly Rock was hers now, and all the power of House
Lannister. No one would ever disregard her again. Even when Tommen had no further need of a
regent, the Lady of Casterly Rock would remain a power in the land.
 

Quote

Lord Tywin’s eyes are closed forever now, Cersei thought. It is my look they will flinch from
now, my frown that they must fear. I am a lion too

And in fact, he manages to recognize (some of) Cersei's flaws:

Quote

Seven save us all, you do. His sister liked to think of herself as Lord Tywin with teats, but she
was wrong. Their father had been as relentless and implacable as a glacier, where Cersei was all
wildfire, especially when thwarted. She had been giddy as a maiden when she learned that
Stannis had abandoned Dragonstone, certain that he had finally given up the fight and sailed
away to exile. When word came down from the north that he had turned up again at the Wall, her
fury had been fearful to behold. She does not lack for wits, but she has no judgment, and no
patience. “You need a strong Hand to help you.”
 

Sure, he does have this:

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With a trebuchet, Jaime thought. If his aunt had been
there, would she still say Tyrion was Tywin’s son?
 

But to me, impression was always more that he was thinking along the lines of "I am becoming a monster like my father" than anything else.

13 hours ago, frenin said:

Oh, she certainly does. Her whole slow implosion is character development.

Character development is not trying, emphasis on trying, to be good. While remaining a self absorbed, corrupt asshole.

She grows more crazy, but is that really character development or her merely being in the position which allows her to display her craziness?

10 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Still refusing to accept that he murdered Aerys and too proud to take the truth..

I don't see refusal there. Just annoyance that everybody is bringing it up.

[Craving Peaches]

41 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

I don't see refusal there. Just annoyance that everybody is bringing it up.

I thought Jaime was quite comfortable with the fact that he killed Aerys. Because he thought it was justified. He gets annoyed because people just blame him without knowing the full story, but at the same time that's his fault because he hasn't told anyone save Brienne about it...

[TeethGrinder]

I love all of them as characters but Jaime and Tyrion are given far more redeeming qualities than Cersei.

Tywin is probably even more morally heinous than Cersei but he's at least shown to be competent in some areas.

Cersei is shown to be extremely cruel and incompetent - Which makes for entertaining reading but it's not exactly what people root for. 

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Aldarion said:

It isn't. My point is that he always has something going on for him - when he stops being a competent swordsman, he begins to change.

It is, your point is that he's not as disliked cause he's badass warrior... But the moment when he's a badass warrior he's barely a character.

Cersei also has things going on for him at all times and is constantly changing, worsening but eh.

 

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I don't think he ever promised her anything regarding Brynden or Tullys.

As for threats, does he ever actually send Edmure to those cells? I don't think so. Words don't matter. He wanted answers, and frankly, a threat is a much more humane way of doing so than torture is.

He very much did. Not ever raise a sword against them or the Starks. And yet, there he is.

He literally does send Edmure to those cells lol.

 

 

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Oh, they do. But Jaime actually does things other than whine, whereas Cersei... doesn't really. And when she does, it is always a catastrophe of one sort or the other.

Yes Jaime does things other than whining... Remembering Tyrion's words about Cersei and being consumed by bitter jealousy.

There are not many characters as self absorbed as the Lannister siblings

 

 

Quote

I do not recall Jaime having internal monologue like this:

I do.

 

Quote

That is not to say that I approved of all he did, or much enjoyed the company of the man that he became … but every little girl needs a big brother to protect her. Tywin was big even when he was little.” She gave a sigh. “Who will protect us now?” Jaime kissed her cheek. “He left a son.” “Aye, he did. That is what I fear the most, in truth.” That was a queer remark. “Why should you fear?” “Jaime,” she said,[...] Tyrion is Tywin’s son, not you..”

 

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Let the world hear. It makes no matter. He forced himself to smile, “You’ve seen our numbers, Edmure. You’ve seen the ladders, the towers, the trebuchets, the rams. If I speak the command, my coz will bridge your moat and break your gate. Hundreds will die, most of them your own. Your former banner-men will make up the first wave of attackers, so you’ll start your day by killing the fathers and brothers of men who died for you at the Twins. The second wave will be Freys, I have no lack of those. My westermen will follow when your archers are short of arrows and your knights so weary they can hardly lift their blades. When the castle falls, all those inside will be put to the sword. Your herds will be butchered, your godswood will be felled, your keeps and towers will burn. I’ll pull your walls down, and divert the Tumblestone over the ruins. By the time I’m done no man will ever know that a castle once stood here.” Jaime got to his feet. “Your wife may whelp before that. You’ll want your child, I expect. I’ll send him to you when he’s born. With a trebuchet.” Silence followed his speech. Edmure sat in his bath. Pia clutched the clothing to her breasts. The singer tightened a string on his harp. Little Lew hollowed out a loaf of stale bread to make a trencher, pretending that he had not heard. With a trebuchet, Jaime thought. If his aunt had been there, would she still say Tyrion was Tywin’s son?

 

They are all trying to be Tywin, Cersei, Jaime and Tyrion. It is always easy to reflect on what others are doing tho....

 

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And in fact, he manages to recognize (some of) Cersei's flaws:

Cersei's flaws are on full display for all to see. He ought to be bind not to see them.

Irregardless, it is always easy to see the mote in your brother's eye and not the rafter in your own.

 

 

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But to me, impression was always more that he was thinking along the lines of "I am becoming a monster like my father" than anything else.

Why, you do remember the monologue.

He doesn't believe he's becoming a monster like his father. Hell, he believes he's on path to become... Goldenhand the Just. 

He's just doing his best daddy impression.

 

 

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She grows more crazy, but is that really character development or her merely being in the position which allows her to display her craziness?

She grows crazier due to her son's death, Tyrion's involvement on Tywin's death, his vanishing and the prophecy.

Her position just enables her but she's not breaking down to her position.

 

 

 

[BalerionTheCat]

On 10/18/2022 at 11:43 PM, frenin said:

The only one time was with the KG thing.

Jaime yielded one time tho

More than one.

In childhood, challenging him to do things he didn't want. It's pushing her will on him. It's not playing innocent games.

Jaime is rather smart. He has shown independent thinking in killing Aerys. But his interaction with Cersei baffle me. He should have left her long ago. The quote above: "If His Grace had woken I would have killed him there and then" is madness. It's acting completely against his interests. At this moment, yeah, it's like your drone. The only way I rationalize it, is she has established the ascendency on him.

I know you like her and rather put all the blame on Jaime. The Stark affair, likely it was her initiative. It's her who chose to not accompany Robert.

Quote

In the early years of their marriage, Robert was forever imploring her to hunt with him, but Cersei had always begged off. His hunting trips allowed her time with Jaime. Golden days and silver nights. It was a dangerous dance that they had danced, to be sure. Eyes and ears were everywhere within the Red Keep, and one could never be certain when Robert would return. Somehow the peril had only served to make their times together that much more thrilling.

 

On 10/18/2022 at 11:43 PM, frenin said:

Before being a monster, she was a  child.

Maybe. Not even sure. Not for long innocent anyway.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

7 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

More than one.

In childhood, challenging him to do things he didn't want. It's pushing her will on him. It's not playing innocent games.

Jaime is rather smart. He has shown independent thinking in killing Aerys. But his interaction with Cersei baffle me. He should have left her long ago. The quote above: "If His Grace had woken I would have killed him there and then" is madness. It's acting completely against his interests. At this moment, yeah, it's like your drone. The only way I rationalize it, is she has established the ascendency on him.

I know you like her and rather put all the blame on Jaime. The Stark affair, likely it was her initiative. It's her who chose to not accompany Robert.

 

Maybe. Not even sure. Not for long innocent anyway.

Yep, even as a child Cersei was a bully and nasty individual with her abuse of Tyrion, her attitude upon meeting Maggy the Frog and how she killed her best friend.

If she had been innocent it only lasted a few years at very best.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

And children's innocence is very relative and limited anyway. I know it only too well for having been "different" of the other kids in terms of behavior and centers of interest and seen what happens to those who don't fit the popular mold.

It's even more relative with those who eventually become bullies and other kind of cunts. They generally show signs of violence and cruelty even at an early age.

[Tygett Lannister]

While all 4 of them can be considered horrible people Cersei just isn't cool like the rest of them. I personally don't really care about Jamie. I like Tywin the most as he is most machiavelian of the 4. And Tyrion is similar to Tywin due to being interested in politics and actually good at it (Cersei is bad at it). 

It is possible that Cersei is less popular because she is a woman but not due to sexism but due to more readers/watchers being male (i'd assume thats the case) and males can relate to other males better and are less interested in female characters. And the universe is written by a male so he is probably gonna be better at writting quality male characters. 

I think in general story has more male characters which is normal for a story inspired by medieval europe and my favourite characters are mainly males with Ollena and Margery being female that I can think of now.

[Ring3r]

52 minutes ago, Tygett Lannister said:

It is possible that Cersei is less popular because she is a woman but not due to sexism but due to more readers/watchers being male (i'd assume thats the case)

I don't think that's a fair assumption.  My favorite character in the entire story is Arya. People don't need to be the same gender/color/whatever to identify with a character.

Not trying to call you out or anything, just my own personal viewpoint

[Tygett Lannister]

2 minutes ago, Ring3r said:

I don't think that's a fair assumption.  My favorite character in the entire story is Arya. People don't need to be the same gender/color/whatever to identify with a character.

Not trying to call you out or anything, just my own personal viewpoint

Well I'm not saying everyone is like that but it is more common than not to identify with a character that is same sex as you. 

[Ring3r]

27 minutes ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Well I'm not saying everyone is like that but it is more common than not to identify with a character that is same sex as you. 

I think that's correct, on average.  But I don't think the average is high enough for assumptions.  Another of my favorite fictional characters is Jean Finch, from To Kill A Mockingbird.  Character-wise, she's quite similar to Arya, just not turned up to 11 like everything in ASoIaF. Yet another favorite character for me would be Lucy, the youngest of the Pevensie children from the Narnia series. I very much identify with characters like that.  I definitely enjoy a good character who is largely overlooked by those around them.

Character writing starts with well fleshed out characters.  It's sadly one of the things I find lacking in a lot of modern entertainment, where rather than putting character first, the writers seem to go down some kind of checklist....represent this, represent that......even with the best of intentions, writing with those goals often produces something akin to tokenism.

Again, just my personal view.  I could give lots of other examples of favorite characters and some of them would line up with, specifically, what I am.  Ender Wiggin would be another favorite, along with Aang from Airbender.  I just don't think good fictional stories can be produced if the writer is trying specifically to appeal. 

And, sorry if you were trying to quote this post while I was still editing it.  More stuff just occurred to me so I added it.  I figure it's better than post-bombing a thread to add more lol

Last thing I'll add....again...this isn't a call-out. Just a viewpoint.