Do you think that the fact Jaime, Tyrion and even Tywin (to an extent) are beloved by the fandom while Cersei is hated indicates some sexism?

[Tygett Lannister]

Yes on average and there are stronger factors that will define why you like character or not. But the question of threat probably claims on average Cersei is more disliked than other Lannisters it would be a wild claim that everyone hates Cersei and loves others. So I think average is pretty fitting in this case, though I think this is just one of the factors I think maybe Cersei actually ended up doing most evil things of all the Lannisters is a stronger factor in why she is generally unpopular.

[Ring3r]

1 minute ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Yes on average and there are stronger factors that will define why you like character or not. But the question of threat probably claims on average Cersei is more disliked than other Lannisters it would be a wild claim that everyone hates Cersei and loves others. So I think average is pretty fitting in this case, though I think this is just one of the factors I think maybe Cersei actually ended up doing most evil things of all the Lannisters is a stronger factor in why she is generally unpopular.

Yeah agree.  Now that we know what is going through her head, and now that we know that she's been eliminating anyone who stands in her way since she was a pre-teen....Jaime is, all things considered, a pretty **** human, but his sister is fully psychotic.  There's a faint possibility of redemption for Jaime....but the big C is all-in.

[frenin]

10 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

In childhood, challenging him to do things he didn't want. It's pushing her will on him. It's not playing innocent games.

So everytime children play truth or dare, they are actually psycho masterminds?

You can't really believe this.

 

10 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Jaime is rather smart. He has shown independent thinking in killing Aerys. But his interaction with Cersei baffle me. He should have left her long ago. The quote above: "If His Grace had woken I would have killed him there and then" is madness. It's acting completely against his interests. At this moment, yeah, it's like your drone. The only way I rationalize it, is she has established the ascendency on him.

Fucking Cersei is treason and is acting completely against each other interest but there they are.

 

 

10 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I know you like her and rather put all the blame on Jaime. The Stark affair, likely it was her initiative. It's her who chose to not accompany Robert.

How that means she initiated it tho?

 

 

[Raven Princling]

I don't think so. I can only speak for myself, but Cersei is my favorite character in the series. I love the way she is written and I enjoy reading her a lot. And she is absolutely hilarious in feast. 

With that being said, I think 99% of the fandom can agree that she does some dark stuff and is not what one could call a good person. Hence the hate. I find purely "good" characters in fiction to be uninteresting and boring which is why I like her. With that being said, as much as I like Cersei, I cannot blame people for hating her.

I am not sure if sexism has much to do with it, but I think there sometimes is a bias in parts of the fandom when it comes to treating characters equally. The most basic example is how people used to criticize Catelyn for her attitude towards Jon and every other little thing while looking at the whole situation from a modern point of view.  At the same time, those people would look the other way from any morally gray/bad things Dany, Tyrion, Jaime and etc. have done. I just think it is bias and not sexism. People want to see things as black and white rather than gray and would not admit that their favorite characters are gray instead of purely good protagonists. But this does not apply to all fans of course. Just a small part.

[BalerionTheCat]

10 hours ago, frenin said:

How that means she initiated it tho?

Because she always took Robert hunts as an opportunity.  And it was still her initiative on the return voyage from Winterfell.

From the previous quote:

Quote

Past midnight, the queen summoned me inside. The king was passed out snoring on the Myrish carpet. I asked my sister if she wanted me to carry him to bed. She told me I should carry her to bed, and shrugged out of her robe.

You're not in reasoning. You're in denial. I don't say it's 100% her. But you can't excuse her for what happened.

 

10 hours ago, frenin said:

So everytime children play truth or dare, they are actually psycho masterminds?

It was no funny games. There was no alternative. Yield or deny, he loses aginst her. Nothing suggests Jaime was liking this.

 

10 hours ago, frenin said:

Fucking Cersei is treason and is acting completely against each other interest but there they are.

The point is not it was against his or her interest. It was another of her "dare" games. And he should have denied her if he was really free of his choice.

[BalerionTheCat]

9 hours ago, Raven Princling said:

I don't think so. I can only speak for myself, but Cersei is my favorite character in the series. I love the way she is written and I enjoy reading her a lot. And she is absolutely hilarious in feast.

Yeah. She is stupidly hilarious. Fun reading. I won't hate her for that "quality". But certainly, one can point to plenty of her wrong doings and wish her death. IMO, Joffrey was closer to deserving unadulterated hate. Even if he was more the spoiled brat.

[frenin]

8 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Because she always took Robert hunts as an opportunity.  And it was still her initiative on the return voyage from Winterfell.

From the previous quote:

So, you get Jaime saying that he badly wanted Cersei but it's not a proof that he initiated... but this unrelated event ot's proof that she did.

 

8 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

You're not in reasoning. You're in denial. I don't say it's 100% her. But you can't excuse her for what happened.

Yet you're excusing him, arguing he is a mindless drone.

 

8 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

It was no funny games. There was no alternative. Yield or deny, he loses aginst her. Nothing suggests Jaime was liking this.

What suggests that he was being coerced?

 

8 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

The point is not it was against his or her interest. It was another of her "dare" games. And he should have denied her if he was really free of his choice.

Or, and I'm throwing things at the wall  here. He wanted to do it.

Certainly fucking Cersei in front of his firstborn's corpse goes against their interest but...

 

[Hugorfonics]

On 10/19/2022 at 10:46 PM, Ring3r said:

There's a faint possibility of redemption for Jaime....but the big C is all-in.

Lmaoooo
You cant be serious?

[frenin]

1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lmaoooo
You cant be serious?

No one told you?

So long as you have self pitying thoughts about self improvement while simultaneously threatening to launch unborn babies to castles via trebuchet, there's a possibility of redemption for you.

[Hugorfonics]

2 minutes ago, frenin said:

No one told you?

So long as you have self pitying thoughts about self improvement while simultaneously threatening to launch unborn babies to castles via trebuchet, there's a possibility of redemption for you.

Nah its not like that. I wouldnt laugh at somebodys opinion (even if it is Jaime getting redemption lol, ok, small laugh, sry)
Its... It must be unintentional....

Look Cerseis a lunatic. Very fun read but very nuts and evil. But this discussion of sexism I certainly does think carry merit.
(in their world too, Aegon is all like "I can take Westeros because KL is being run by a broad" Or Eddard when was like "women have wrath?" )

[kissdbyfire]

On 10/12/2022 at 9:14 AM, StarkTullies said:

I can't speak for all of fandom, but I hate Cersei... and I hate Tywin even more.  Tywin is my number one least favorite character in the first 3 books.  I also dislike Tyrion quite a bit, but I think Cersei is worse than either Tyrion or Jaime.  Jaime is trying to become a better person, but Cersei gets increasingly worse with each new POV chapter.  Cersei is my most disliked POV character, and Tyrion is my 3rd most disliked POV character (only Cersei and Victarion are worse).

I agree w/ a lot here. Only Tyrion is my #1 most disliked character - and I find it infuriating that he gets a pass for some of the vilest things any PoV has done. Tywin #1 most disliked non PoV character. Really really dislike Cersei as a [fictional] person, but like her chapters. And Jaime is my favourite character. I won’t go into Victarion b/c I’d like to forget he exists. 
The one thing I don’t really see eye to eye here is that Jaime is trying to become a better person, or is n a redemption arc… I think he is exactly the same person he was from the start, only perhaps slightly less cynical. The notion that he’s changed significantly comes from being in his head imo, b/c it’s much easier to understand and relate to someone when you get to know them a little, so to speak. 

 

On 10/12/2022 at 9:14 AM, StarkTullies said:

I am confident in saying that my dislike for Cersei has nothing to do with an unconscious sexist bias, but do some people judge her more harshly as a woman than they would if she were a man?  Of course.  Everyone is different, and I don't think there can be a general sweeping explanation for our likes or dislikes.

Agree. 

On 10/12/2022 at 9:14 AM, StarkTullies said:

I disagree.  The claim that "Cersei's only good trait is that she loves her children" comes from an alternate telling of the story, and I don't see that demonstrated in the books.  She "loves" Jaime because she sees herself in him, and her "love" for Joffrey seems to be equally narcissistic.  She's downright nasty to Tommen and a terrible mother to him.

I’m with you. The abomination went to extraordinary lengths to make Cersei, Tywin and Tyrion much more deserving of sympathy and even approval than the characters (as  presented in the books) are. 
I couldn’t agree more w/ Cersei’s ‘love’ for her children and for Jaime being Cersei loving the reflection of herself she sees in them. 

On 10/12/2022 at 9:14 AM, StarkTullies said:

People often say Ned is an idiot for telling Cersei he knew the truth.  It wasn't idiocy, it was compassion to save her children.  The "smart" thing to do would be to not warn Cersei.  If Cersei really cared about her children, she would have fled like Ned asked.  Instead she stayed behind because she cared more about making her power-move than protecting her children.  The scene when Ned warned Cersei didn't show her as frightened or worried.  She tried to seduce Ned, and then she made her infamous "win or die" statement.  She is forcing her children to play the game of thrones.  She is forcing them to "win or die".

Yup. 

On 10/12/2022 at 9:14 AM, StarkTullies said:

I agree it is non-sense for Robert to be allowed to cheat, but not for Cersei.  To be clear, Cersei didn't cheat on Robert because he was a cheater.  She slept with Jaime the morning of their wedding, and it wasn't going to stop.  It is societal sexism to say that queenly adultery is treason but kingly adultery is not... but Cersei's treason was a lot more than adultery.  She passed her children off as Robert's heirs, and that is legitimate treason.  Plus, she was cheating with her own brother, which is an abomination in Westerosi society for non-Targaryens.

Cersei murdered a couple of Robert's bastard children in Casterly Rock, and later ordered Barra's death, and unsuccessfully ordered Gendry's death.  Barra and Gendry were politically motivated, but the children in Casterly Rock was pure hate and vengeance.  And of course Cersei murdered Robert.  These alleged crimes that Ned assumed Robert would have done if he learned the truth, Cersei actually did do: killed the spouse, killed the spouse's bastard children.

Cersei is herself very misogynistic. She’s always seen herself as a female Tywin and also desperately wants others to see her as such. I think some of her vileness and cruelty comes from that, too. 
But having Tywin as their father, the 3 siblings never really had a chance. 

[Equilibrium]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

 Tyrion is my #1 most disliked character - and I find it infuriating that he gets a pass for some of the vilest things any PoV has done

Trust me when I say it's a genuine curiosity, but can I ask what are those things? 

[kissdbyfire]

19 hours ago, Equilibrium said:

Trust me when I say it's a genuine curiosity, but can I ask what are those things? 

I believe you when you say it’s general curiosity, but I’ll take a hard pass. It’s a can of worms that usually derails threads, and one I really don’t want to open. 
I’ll just say it’s all there in the text, and it gets worse by the book.

 

[Equilibrium]

43 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I believe you when you say it’s general curiosity, but I’ll take a hard pass. It’s a can of worms that usually derails threads, and one I really don’t want to open. 
I’ll just say it’s all there in the text, and it gets worse by the book.

DM me, you will get zero feedback if you aren't interested in it! I really don't want to argue or troll, I know you from the forums for a long time and honestly want to know what made you hold such strong opinion.

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Equilibrium said:

DM me, you will get zero feedback if you aren't interested in it! I really don't want to argue or troll, I know you from the forums for a long time and honestly want to know what made you hold such strong opinion.

I’m fine w/ feedback, just don’t want to derail this thread. I’ll dm you later. 

[Ring3r]

On 10/21/2022 at 9:12 AM, Hugorfonics said:

Nah its not like that. I wouldnt laugh at somebodys opinion (even if it is Jaime getting redemption lol, ok, small laugh, sry)
Its... It must be unintentional....

Look Cerseis a lunatic. Very fun read but very nuts and evil. But this discussion of sexism I certainly does think carry merit.

Well, that's a bit disingenuous, isn't it?  Saying you wouldn't do something, then doing it the next sentence lol.

What's unintentional about what I said?  Jaime very much seems to be getting a redemption arc, or at least a partial one.  He's extremely conflicted about the things he's done, clearly has finally separated himself from his sister, we have found out that everyone hates him for the best thing he ever did (Aerys), and while he threatened something horrible to end the siege of Riverrun, he did so as a last ditch effort at avoiding bloodshed, upholding a promise he made earlier.

I certainly don't think he's a GOOD guy.  But he has redeeming qualities, while his sister has none.  No sexism required at all.  If you have to go looking for "isms," you'll end up creating them.  There's plenty of sexism in GRRM's world...no need to try and invent it where there's a perfectly valid explanation otherwise.  Cersie is a monster.

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Ring3r said:

Well, that's a bit disingenuous, isn't it?  Saying you wouldn't do something, then doing it the next sentence lol.

I said I was sorry.

1 hour ago, Ring3r said:

What's unintentional about what I said? 

It looks like you called her a cunt. Which in the defense of fighting off claims of sexism, its just hysterically dark. 

[Ring3r]

17 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I said I was sorry.

It looks like you called her a cunt. Which in the defense of fighting off claims of sexism, its just hysterically dark. 

Ok...first....saying you wouldn't do something, then intentionally doing it one sentence later isn't sorry, it's sophism.

Second....I had to go back and look at what I said to try and find what you were referring to...I assume that's how you took the "Big C?"  Her name is Cersie lol.  Like I just said....if you go looking for isms, you'll invent them.  Basically what I think of this whole thread lol

[BlackLightning]

On 10/18/2022 at 6:46 AM, sifth said:

I mean her father killed kids though. She really is daddy’s little girl, in the worst kind of way.

Bingo

[BlackLightning]

I do think that the flack and the hate that flawed female characters get does indicate sexism.

It's true all across media that female characters tend to be really torn to shreds for being flawed or troubled in any way.

However, this applies to the likes of Catelyn and Sansa. Not to the likes of Cersei. Although her POV chapters are both a lot of fun and exquisitely well-written, Cersei is hated because she is truly vile. It has nothing to do with her sex.