Craving Peaches Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 It does not excuse the attrocities he commited. Quite simply because, in my opinon, he isn't really that mad, at least not mad enough. Did he have delusions of grandeur? Certainly. Is he paranoid? Absolutely. But this does not make him pyschotic. Similarly, quotes like this: Quote "Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat," he said to a man below him. "Let him be the king of ashes." Show that he isn't completely out of touch with reality. He can still apply some twisted logic/reasoning and then act upon it. He's not burning the city because he's gone nuts, he's burning the city as his funeral pyre - if he can't have it then no one can. He is made as in cruel, not mad as in insane. I conclude that Aerys, were he tried today, could not use insanity as a defence. Because he has not shown 'total alienation of reason'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canon Claude Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 Most of the “mad” Targaryens wouldn’t count as being “insane”. They’ve certainly got behavioural issues up the wazoo, but the term “mad” was never meant to be a genuine diagnosis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 12, 2022 Author Share Posted October 12, 2022 Just now, Canon Claude said: Most of the “mad” Targaryens wouldn’t count as being “insane”. They’ve certainly got behavioural issues up the wazoo, but the term “mad” was never meant to be a genuine diagnosis. I agree. Aerys wasn't mad mad, he was cruel. So it cannot be used to excuse his actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Sidious Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said: It does not excuse the attrocities he commited. Quite simply because, in my opinon, he isn't really that mad, at least not mad enough. Did he have delusions of grandeur? Certainly. Is he paranoid? Absolutely. But this does not make him pyschotic. Similarly, quotes like this: Show that he isn't completely out of touch with reality. He can still apply some twisted logic/reasoning and then act upon it. He's not burning the city because he's gone nuts, he's burning the city as his funeral pyre - if he can't have it then no one can. He is made as in cruel, not mad as in insane. I conclude that Aerys, were he tried today, could not use insanity as a defence. Because he has not shown 'total alienation of reason'. Arya commits atrocities too. And she does the deed herself. Like Aerys, Arya too suffers from madness. We should not give Arya a break for her disability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 12, 2022 Author Share Posted October 12, 2022 Just now, Darth Sidious said: Arya commits atrocities too. And she does the deed herself. Like Aerys, Arya too suffers from madness. We should not give Arya a break for her disability. Arya isn't mad either. Same situation as Aerys but on a much lesser scale. She doesn't do those things because she is out of touch with reality. She is capable of rationalising a justification for her actions. Case in point - the murder of Dareon. Arya didn't kill him because she went mental, she killed him because she thought she had the right. Hopefully Arya doesn't go down the dark path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarkTullies Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 Some of Aerys's actions were due to madness. His paranoia was caused by madness, and his paranoia and delusions led him to his wildfire plot. But he has other behaviors that aren't due to madness. Brutally beating and raping his sister-wife because he was so irresistibly turned on by burning Rickard Stark to death was not due to delusions or paranoia. That was entirely due to sadistic psychopathy. Bottom line, take away the madness aspect of his personality, Aerys was still an absolutely terrible person underneath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Steller Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: Hopefully Arya doesn't go down the dark path. She already has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastWolf Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 2 hours ago, James Steller said: She already has. Yawn emoticon mods pleeease Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aejohn the Conqueroo Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 6 hours ago, Darth Sidious said: Arya commits atrocities too. And she does the deed herself. Like Aerys, Arya too suffers from madness. We should not give Arya a break for her disability. You got a little room with pictures of her all over the walls don't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastWolf Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 56 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said: You got a little room with pictures of her all over the walls don't you? A fricking hard disk or three more like Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 Aerys was schizophrenic, which is, I think, a mitigating factor in his crimes. But, he was always a jerk, even from the start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aebram Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 Xxx Quote Captivity at Duskendale had shattered whatever sanity had remained to Aerys II Targaryen. From that day forth, the king’s madness reigned unchecked, growing worse with every passing year. The Darklyns had dared lay hands upon his person, shoving him roughly, stripping him of his royal raiment, even daring to strike him. After his release, King Aerys would no longer allow himself to be touched, even by his own servants. Uncut and unwashed, his hair grew ever longer and more tangled, whilst his fingernails lengthened and thickened into grotesque yellow talons. He forbade any blade in his presence save for the swords carried by the knights of his Kingsguard, sworn to protect him. His judgments became ever harsher and crueler. (AWOIAF Aerys II) "Mad" is not a precise psychological term. But from text such as the above, it seems clear that Aerys earned his nickname. The problem with kings --one of them, at least -- is that you can't vote them out of office, and there's no 26th Amendment that allows the Small Council to impeach them. So if they get bad enough, whether from Insanity or cruelty, at some point, a rebellion by force becomes the best solution. The real tragedy is that so many other people were hurt or killed in the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 13, 2022 Author Share Posted October 13, 2022 7 hours ago, StarkTullies said: His paranoia was caused by madness, and his paranoia and delusions led him to his wildfire plot. The actual decision to light the Wildfire wasn't made because he was mad though, it was made because he wanted to deprive anyone else of the City. He has a reason for doing it, he knows why he's doing it. It's not done because he has just totally lost touch with what's going on. He's aware, he knows what he's doing when he says that. 1 hour ago, SeanF said: Aerys was schizophrenic, which is, I think, a mitigating factor in his crimes. It's possible that he was schizophrenic but I don't know if there's enough evidence for it. He was certainly paranoid, but I don't think that in itself is enough to qualify as being insane. At the time, when he gave the order to light the wildfire, he looks like he's in touch with reality due to his stated reasoning behind the act. He is not in psychosis in that moment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 13, 2022 Author Share Posted October 13, 2022 1 minute ago, Aebram said: "Mad" is not a precise psychological term. But from text such as the above, it seems clear that Aerys earned his nickname. The reason I don't think he's mad enough to excuse him of his crimes is because he has not shown 'total alienation of reason'. His behaviour is abnormal but when he gives the order to light the wildfire, it doesn't seem like he's completely lost touch with reality, because he is able to rationalise why he's making the decision to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said: The actual decision to light the Wildfire wasn't made because he was mad though, it was made because he wanted to deprive anyone else of the City. He has a reason for doing it, he knows why he's doing it. It's not done because he has just totally lost touch with what's going on. He's aware, he knows what he's doing when he says that. It's possible that he was schizophrenic but I don't know if there's enough evidence for it. He was certainly paranoid, but I don't think that in itself is enough to qualify as being insane. At the time, when he gave the order to light the wildfire, he looks like he's in touch with reality due to his stated reasoning behind the act. He is not in psychosis in that moment He was seeing things that were not there (eg the laughing tree actually laughing at him). Jaime thought that Aerys thought that detonating the wildfire would transform him into a dragon, so I think he was out of his mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 13, 2022 Author Share Posted October 13, 2022 22 minutes ago, SeanF said: He was seeing things that were not there (eg the laughing tree actually laughing at him). Jaime thought that Aerys thought that detonating the wildfire would transform him into a dragon, so I think he was out of his mind. If he was seeing things that weren't there at the time of giving the order to light the wildfire then perhaps, but otherwise I still don't think it excuses him. His belief that he would become a dragon I don't think is enough to excuse him either, it's not like he was acting like he was an actual dragon when he was giving the order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 33 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: If he was seeing things that weren't there at the time of giving the order to light the wildfire then perhaps, but otherwise I still don't think it excuses him. His belief that he would become a dragon I don't think is enough to excuse him either, it's not like he was acting like he was an actual dragon when he was giving the order. It doesn’t alter the fact that Jaime had to kill him. It does mitigate his guilt, IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 13, 2022 Author Share Posted October 13, 2022 1 hour ago, SeanF said: t does mitigate his guilt, IMHO. In my opinion it would only mean he was not guilty if he were having a hallucination of some sort while giving the order, which meant he had no idea at all what was going on or could not realise the consequences of his actions. Based on his quote however he had not totally lost touch with reality. He was able to rationalise a justification for what he was doing and he realised the consequences. So I think he would be guilty. Potentially he could claim diminished responsibility due to his condition if he had one, but I don't think he could be excused from the crime completely because at the point in time where it was committed he had not displayed 'total alienation of reason '. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: In my opinion it would only mean he was not guilty if he were having a hallucination of some sort while giving the order, which meant he had no idea at all what was going on or could not realise the consequences of his actions. Based on his quote however he had not totally lost touch with reality. He was able to rationalise a justification for what he was doing and he realised the consequences. So I think he would be guilty. Potentially he could claim diminished responsibility due to his condition if he had one, but I don't think he could be excused from the crime completely because at the point in time where it was committed he had not displayed 'total alienation of reason '. Aerys was always a nasty person, even pre-mad. He rewarded Tywin for drowning women and children. He reversed the reforms in favour of the commons that his grandfather had instituted. Then, he amused himself by abusing Tywin, and molesting his wife. He murdered a wet nurse, and generally behaved like a jerk towards others. So, even non-mad, he was a bad king. But, I think he was out of his mind by the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 21 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: It does not excuse the attrocities he commited. Quite simply because, in my opinon, he isn't really that mad, at least not mad enough. I mean, he's mad mad. The question is... ¿Why no one stopped this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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