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Aerys' Madness is no Excuse


Craving Peaches

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Archmaester Marwyn told Samwell that the maesters have been poisoning the "dragons."  It might be he meant the maesters were poisoning the Targaryens.  The Dragon Lords of Valyria, including the Targaryens, were not suffering from mental health issues.  They could not have controlled their dragons if they were.  Just as a horse can sense an unstable person so could dragons.  King Aerys was driven to madness by the chemicals and the traumatic experiences of his life.  Thus, he has an excuse.  

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7 minutes ago, Finley McLeod said:

King Aerys was driven to madness by the chemicals and the traumatic experiences of his life.  Thus, he has an excuse.  

Even if it was the chemicals and not just the effects of inbreeding, going by the quote it still wouldn't excuse him because the quote shows that he was not completely detatched from reality, which is what is required to get him off.

He might be able to lower his charge however, if he could prove he was being poisoned and the traumatic experiences. But I do not believe he could ever be aquitted.

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Basically, I agree.
Baratheon propaganda is definitely a thing. Immediately we're aware of the discrepancies between Rhaegar the rapist and Rhaegar the heroic fallen brother, things get alarming when Robert curses the mad king and talks about pissing on graves and scaring the hell out of his horse. So, what constitutes a mad king?
His son has the answer. Viserys wasnt always mad (ok, pivot, whats mad? If we go by the definition of Balon was mad Aerons madder and Eurons the maddest of them all then whos not? I think we should reach high here and go for Patchface as our example) Back in the day Viserys simply wanted to sell his sister for an ugly hat and an uncomfortable chair, while also having perverse thoughts of raping his sister and something about ten thousand horses but that just makes him like all Targaryens who came before him. Eventually he snaps though, Dany calls him the man who was once his brother, this was truly a mad king. (should he be excused?)
I dont see Aerys like Viserys was. Tywin did, so did Barri (and Ned, Robert, Brienne and all sorts of folks who didnt know him) and what strikes me is Im not sure how Jaimje saw him. So Tywin was if not the author of Baratheon propognda he definitely did the best from it, being hand for the non mad years and all that, plus dragonspawn looks better when their all guaranteed to be mini hitlers. Barri, has a sharp decline in memory. In asos we see this mixing up dates about outlaws he fought and in adwd he swears Dany never laughed at Quintyn therefore the old man who made a career of being hit in the head also, like Tywin, becomes an unreliable narrator. Which leaves Jaime, who doesnt walk around everywhere calling Aerys nuts, which is frankly nuits, unless of course he wasnt. 
But then of course we should acknowledge Aerys' goal of blowing up kingslanding to be reborn as a dragon. Sounds nuts to me. About as nuts as a child widow walking into her husbands funeral pyre, along with three dragon eggs that look alot like rocks. But, if it works, is it mad?

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20 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Sounds nuts to me. About as nuts as a child widow walking into her husbands funeral pyre, along with three dragon eggs that look alot like rocks. But, if it works, is it mad?

It may or may not be mad, it does sound nuts but then they also did have functioning magic at some point.

Regardless of his mad/not mad belief however, I believe the quote shows Aerys was lucid enough at the time of the crime (he had come up with a reason for his actions and understood the consequences), so I don't think he can get off.

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42 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

It may or may not be mad, it does sound nuts but then they also did have functioning magic at some point.

She never did

44 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Regardless of his mad/not mad belief however, I believe the quote shows Aerys was lucid enough at the time of the crime (he had come up with a reason for his actions and understood the consequences), so I don't think he can get off.

Get off what? A modern trial where he's judged by 12 of his lizard people peers? 

The problem with Aerys is he wasn't that bad. Robert the successor opens the book mirroring his nemesis, his brother is worse and his son is something of a joke, but only with a horrible sense of humor. 

The problem is the crown. Aegon took it because the dragon was able to burn 7 kingdoms to the ground but his descendant isn't able to pacify the town of duskendale. KL is useless without a dragon so I do agree Aerys has reason for his actions, but the same reason as Euron or Stannis, or any other king who could figure it out

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Just now, Hugorfonics said:

Get off what? A modern trial where he's judged by 12 of his lizard people peers? 

Yes. The thread is about how his madness doesn't excuse him because it isn't to the degree required for an insanity defence, and therefore it would be wrong to claim that Aerys was innocent because it wasn't his fault because he was mad.

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13 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes. The thread is about how his madness doesn't excuse him because it isn't to the degree required for an insanity defence, and therefore it would be wrong to claim that Aerys was innocent because it wasn't his fault because he was mad.

So you excuse his son?

No, but he has the Targaryen defense. That only a tyrannical dragon can stop the sunset kingdoms from killing each other. Now lesser beasts have taken the mantle, but just because you attach wings to a stag doesn't make it a dragon. Which of course is a terrible thing to be 

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35 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

So you excuse his son?

I will reserve judgement on Rhaegar until we find out more.

36 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

No, but he has the Targaryen defense. That only a tyrannical dragon can stop the sunset kingdoms from killing each other.

I don't think that's a valid defence. Aegon certainly didn't do that, he spent ages killing the Dornish and the Dornish spent ages killing everyone else. Numerous Blackfyre rebellions, Peake uprising etc. There were certainly periods of peace but it wasn't like the killings ceased all together. They traded quantity for quality in terms of the wars I think.

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17 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I will reserve judgement on Rhaegar until we find out more.

Ahh, excuse me. I meant his other son in his moment of insanity, right before his death.

18 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't think that's a valid defence. Aegon certainly didn't do that, he spent ages killing the Dornish and the Dornish spent ages killing everyone else. Numerous Blackfyre rebellions, Peake uprising etc. There were certainly periods of peace but it wasn't like the killings ceased all together. They traded quantity for quality in terms of the wars I think.

Agreed. However post Aerys is both more in quantity and quality 

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24 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ahh, excuse me. I meant his other son in his moment of insanity, right before his death.

Ahh, you mean Viserys. Well I don't think he was mad enough either. He was having a breakdown of some sort when he realised he was about to die, but when he threatened Daenerys etc. I think it was just because he was really bitter and entitled and fed up with the perceived insults.

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1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Ahh, you mean Viserys. Well I don't think he was mad enough either. He was having a breakdown of some sort when he realised he was about to die, but when he threatened Daenerys etc. I think it was just because he was really bitter and entitled and fed up with the perceived insults.

Quote

Viserys laughed. "They can't kill us. They can't shed blood here in the sacred city … but I can." He laid the point of his sword between Daenerys's breasts and slid it downward, over the curve of her belly. "I want what I came for," he told her. "I want the crown he promised me. He bought you, but he never paid for you. Tell him I want what I bargained for, or I'm taking you back. You and the eggs both. He can keep his bloody foal. I'll cut the bastard out and leave it for him." The sword point pushed through her silks and pricked at her navel. Viserys was weeping, she saw; weeping and laughing, both at the same time, this man who had once been her brother.

You don't think that constitutes as insanity?

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2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

You don't think that constitutes as insanity?

He's being horrible but I don't think it fulfills the standard to legally excuse him. He's aware of the prohibition on shedding blood, for one. And he's not just attacking Daenerys randomly, he's come up with a specific reason for doing so, he feels insulted etc...

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