Craving Peaches Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 Personally I believe Arya is guilty of murder, because I do not think that her killing of Dareon was legal (or moral but that is another matter). I do not think there is much need to discuss whether there was both a mental and conduct element to Arya's crime (and this is not necessarily relevant to the world of the book anyway). From her point-of-view chapters it is quite clear that she intended to kill Dareon and did kill him. However if Arya had the authority to kill Dareon, then it would not be murder (in universe). But I do not think she has this authority, for the following reasons: 1. She is not an adult. 2. She is not head of House Stark and has no reason to believe herself to be the head of House Stark, nor did the head of House Stark vest in her the power to carry out executions on their behalf. 3. She is not a member of the Night's Watch or acting on behalf of the Iron Throne. 4. Braavos is outside of the Jurisdiction of the Night's Watch, House Stark and the Iron Throne. Also, Arya did not follow the example set out by her father for executing deserters, though I am not sure if this in itself would render her act illegal. Though I believe it is already illegal, because due to the above reasons she lacks the authority to carry out an execution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 I agree, pretty much. Her age, and her sufferings, and Daeron’s shitty character, are extenuating factors, but she still had no right to kill Daeron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 The point is it was wrong, she'll come to understand this. Another reason it's wrong and that she'll come to understand is that justice is not done in secret in the dark, it is done in the light so that people may see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 15, 2022 Author Share Posted October 15, 2022 4 hours ago, SeanF said: Daeron’s shitty character If Dareon was genuinely innocent then I can understand why he'd be annoyed and want to desert, he effectively got sent to a penal colony for a crime he didn't commit because he didn't want to be executed/castrated. He swore an oath but it's not like he really would have had another choice. Ultimately we have no way of knowing whether this was the case though because he's dead now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H Wadsworth Longfellow Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 Arya was morally and legally wrong. In the world of the books as well as in our own universe. Let's not pretend it was done because of some honor code. She killed Dareon because she felt like he was being disrespectful to the brother she loved. I am referring here to Jon Snow. Arya loves Jon Snow. Arya Stark will be punished for this sin because there is some divine justice in the end. I believe she will almost complete her list and the last mark will kill her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastWolf Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 15, 2022 Author Share Posted October 15, 2022 Just now, H Wadsey Longfellow said: She killed Dareon because she felt like he was being disrespectful to the brother she loved. I am referring here to Jon Snow. Arya loves Jon Snow. I am certain the fact that she viewed Dareon as a deserter was what motivated her to do the deed. Quote Dareon had been a deserter from the Night's Watch; he had deserved to die. Those are her thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevets Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 Of course it was murder. I doubt even Arya would dispute that, given that she hid the body and told only the Kindly Man, which suggests she knew on some level that it was wrong and something she could get in trouble for. She didn't kill Dareon simply because he was a Nights Watch deserter. She was angry about his betrayal and abandonment of Sam, and by extension her brother, and by his arrogant and hedonistic attitude. Being a deserter gave her the justification she needed to be able to kill him. While I consider it her worst act, I can't get too upset about it. He did essentially backstab Sam and desert, which Arya considers justification for his death. She is still a small child after all, and her reasoning is a bit wobbly. By the way, whether Dareon is guilty of his original offense is irrelevant here. Arya knows nothing about it, so it has no effect on her culpability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BalerionTheCat Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 I believe she did it because it was what her father was doing: killing the NW deserters. Killing the deserters is bad, generally. Was not justified for Gared. Would not have been for Dareon. Her doing it, is even worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loose Bolt Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 Dareon was an outlaw so Arya could legally kill him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 15, 2022 Author Share Posted October 15, 2022 34 minutes ago, Loose Bolt said: Dareon was an outlaw Not in Braavos he wasn't. 34 minutes ago, Loose Bolt said: so Arya could legally kill him. I don't think she could, because of all the reasons in the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 15, 2022 Author Share Posted October 15, 2022 57 minutes ago, Nevets said: While I consider it her worst act, I can't get too upset about it. I don't think he treated Sam & Co. well, but if he truly was innocent as he claimed, I can see why he was annoyed at the whole situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 15, 2022 Author Share Posted October 15, 2022 39 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said: I believe she did it because it was what her father was doing: killing the NW deserters. Killing the deserters is bad, generally. Was not justified for Gared. Would not have been for Dareon. Her doing it, is even worse. She doesn't execute him properly either. She murders him, loots the body and dumps it in the river. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastWolf Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: She murders him, loots the body and dumps it in the river. Baby female Jack Reacher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 15, 2022 Author Share Posted October 15, 2022 39 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said: Baby female Jack Reacher Just to be clear, I do not think Arya is a murderous psychopath for killing Dareon or anything, though it does trouble me (it is morally wrong in my point of view and not something I would be happy to see her repeat). I think she is a traumatised young girl who has done some wrongs because she has been isolated from her family and parental figures and is in the company of assassins who have no interest in maintaining her moral integrity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BalerionTheCat Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: She doesn't execute him properly either. She murders him, loots the body and dumps it in the river. I understand. But she is not as conventional as Ned. More practical. The boots were good. So why waste them? And dead is dead no matter the procedure. And she was supposed to be a thief. Maybe disguise the death as a theft. But the deed was wrong. No different Essor or Westeros. Not sure what it means for her future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevets Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said: Just to be clear, I do not think Arya is a murderous psychopath for killing Dareon or anything, though it does trouble me (it is morally wrong in my point of view and not something I would be happy to see her repeat). I think she is a traumatised young girl who has done some wrongs because she has been isolated from her family and parental figures and is in the company of assassins who have no interest in maintaining her moral integrity. I agree with all of this. In addition to her young age, her mind has been adversely affected by her wartime experiences, and association with the Faceless Men isn't helping. Still, by her lights Dareon is a wrongdoer, and against people she likes and cares about. I can't say I find Dareon a particularly sympathetic victim. Even by his own account, he comes across as incredibly foolish and irresponsible. You don't have sex with a noble girl, even if she is willing. He comes across as an arrogant, self-entitled prick there too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BalerionTheCat Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 1 hour ago, Nevets said: In addition to her young age, her mind has been adversely affected by her wartime experiences, and association with the Faceless Men isn't helping Yes. But other people have lived nightmares, have been damaged in their flesh and their family. They are not monsters for so. I believe the idea is to not reply to violence and vengeance by the same. ETA: Killing someone unpopular is not an excuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 15, 2022 Author Share Posted October 15, 2022 1 hour ago, Nevets said: I can't say I find Dareon a particularly sympathetic victim. Even by his own account, he comes across as incredibly foolish and irresponsible. I don't think he is intended to be the most sympathetic either. However if he really was innocent then I can understand why he'd be annoyed by the whole situation. 1 hour ago, Nevets said: You don't have sex with a noble girl, even if she is willing. He comes across as an arrogant, self-entitled prick there too. It was certainly irresponsible. However, if he was innocent, then I feel like the choice between life in a penal colony or being castrated/executed is a bit harsh for what was a consensual coupling between two adult individuals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 15, 2022 Author Share Posted October 15, 2022 1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said: I understand. But she is not as conventional as Ned. More practical. The boots were good. So why waste them? And dead is dead no matter the procedure. And she was supposed to be a thief. Maybe disguise the death as a theft. It is, but I also feel that to a certain extent the procedure does matter. Quote Yet our way is the older way. The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die. I would think that there would be some reason to follow this particular procedure, as it seems to be quite significant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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