Arya Stark and the Murder of Dareon - Guilty or Not Guilty?

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I would think that there would be some reason to follow this particular procedure, as it seems to be quite significant.

I think she did it. She heard his words, his explanations. She didn't say: "I sentence you to death". Had no guards to hold him still. But like Ned she was the only one to judge.

ETA: What is bothering is, she could watch anyone in the eyes and kill him or her.

[Nathan Stark]

Hey, Dareon abandoned the Nights Watch. And he was pretty gleeful and open about it too, which was not a smart decision on his part. He has to have known the consequences for abandoning the Nights Watch. I can't get too mad at Arya for murdering him. It's not even her most disturbing kill.

Arya didn't do anything extremely bad by Westerosi standards, as Dareon would have been executed anywhere he went in Westeros, so from a strictly legalistic perspective, Arya wouldn't have the authority to sentence him in Braavos. But she was taught from a young age that Nights Watch deserters must be executed. Take it up with Northern Westerosi culture. 

I'm not saying she was good and right to kill Dareon, just that I understand why she did it. 

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said:

I can't get too mad at Arya for murdering him. It's not even her most disturbing kill.

I'm not that mad about it either, it's just it's totally wrong from a legal point of view (and a moral one) in my opinion.

1 hour ago, Nathan Stark said:

I'm not saying she was good and right to kill Dareon, just that I understand why she did it. 

I understand too. I just don't think she should make a habit of it.

[Rosetta Stone]

17 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Personally I believe Arya is guilty of murder, because I do not think that her killing of Dareon was legal (or moral but that is another matter).

I do not think there is much need to discuss whether there was both a mental and conduct element to Arya's crime (and this is not necessarily relevant to the world of the book anyway). From her point-of-view chapters it is quite clear that she intended to kill Dareon and did kill him.

However if Arya had the authority to kill Dareon, then it would not be murder (in universe). But I do not think she has this authority, for the following reasons:

1. She is not an adult.

2. She is not head of House Stark and has no reason to believe herself to be the head of House Stark, nor did the head of House Stark vest in her the power to carry out executions on their behalf.

3. She is not a member of the Night's Watch or acting on behalf of the Iron Throne.

4. Braavos is outside of the Jurisdiction of the Night's Watch, House Stark and the Iron Throne.

Also, Arya did not follow the example set out by her father for executing deserters, though I am not sure if this in itself would render her act illegal. Though I believe it is already illegal, because due to the above reasons she lacks the authority to carry out an execution.

Dareon's murder was an act of evil. The act itself is evil.  If Arya is as insane as many claim then she has a defense to lean on.  I find the middle ground applies.  Arya is only moderately insane but not to the degree where she should not be held to account for this crime.  

It cannot be called an execution because the charges were not given to Dareon.  He doesn't know why he was killed.  It was a stealthy attack with a blade.  

[Craving Peaches]

5 hours ago, Rosetta Stone said:

If Arya is as insane as many claim then she has a defense to lean on. 

She's not insane though. She's nowhere near insane.

[Corvo the Crow]

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[Ring3r]

This is actually a tough one, because the people saying that Arya didn't have the prerequisite legal authority to do what she did are correct.  I don't know what the reciprocity or extradition laws are between Westeros and Braavos, but I imagine Braavos must not care too much.

Arya fulfilled an automatic sentence against a guy who was bragging about being sentenced to death in another country.

I'd argue that she's not guilty of murder...but she's guilty of justified homicide (which is a real legal thing.) 

Obviously, she killed a man.  She killed him because he abandoned his sworn brothers and broke his Westerosi oath.  He'd have been captured and killed had he not been in Westeros.

I think Arya legally erred, but I don't think she morally erred.  Yes, I know that'll be controversial.

[TheLastWolf]

9 hours ago, Rosetta Stone said:

Dareon's murder was an act of evil. The act itself is evil.  If Arya is as insane as many claim then she has a defense to lean on.  I find the middle ground applies.  Arya is only moderately insane but not to the degree where she should not be held to account for this crime.  

It cannot be called an execution because the charges were not given to Dareon.  He doesn't know why he was killed.  It was a stealthy attack with a blade.  

[Craving Peaches]

I really doubt that Arya is insane. What she did was not nice by any means but I don't think it means she can now be classed as the ultimate evil. Two wrongs don't make a right, but many people in the series have done far worse for little to no reason.

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Arya is a Stark. There were no Adult Male Lord Starks for thousands of leagues around(perhaps company of the Rose was near but who knows) so she is in her rights to kill him.

She is a Stark, but she is not an adult Stark, nor did an adult Stark give her permission to carry out executions on their behalf. Also, even if she had a 'right' to kill him, it would only really be applicable in Westeros.

43 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Not being in Westeros doesn’t matter.

I think it does.

43 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

and a rapist.

There is no conclusive proof either way that he was a rapist. And given that he's dead now we'll likely never know.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

It's a grey character action, on one hand we can fully understand Arya's action given how traumatized and hardened she is, her reject of injustice and her lust for blood for those who wrong others, though of course she hadn't any legal justification for killing Daeron despite what he did and she knew that she would be in trouble with the FM if they found out, which happened. 

I think that this event will have its importance in future books, and be one of the factors for Arya to slowly learn that vigilantism and justice aren't the same thing and to learn how to to restrain her hand. 

[Evolett]

Arya is as guilty as a child exposed to and damned to live with the horrors of war can be. She is the equivalent of a modern day child soldier in all its facets. She is separated from her home and family, forced to travel through a combat zone and witnesses all manner of atrocities committed against human life. Her mentors and “care-takers” are men well versed in the art of killing – Yoren, the BWB, the Hound. Lastly, she’s recruited by faceless assassins. Her adventures are a good read but Arya is just a child. Child soldiers are recruited precisely because of their emotional immaturity and incomplete character development. Because they are young, they can be easily manipulated and drawn into violence they do not fully comprehend. Arya fits this image. She wasn't recruited until later but went through experiences similar to those faced by child soldiers. 

Adding to this is Arya’s innate personality and most likely, her wolfblood. Arya showed strong signs of gender non-conformism prior to her odyssey, her parents were well aware of her “wildness,” but until Ned relented and hired Syrio Forel as a “dancing teacher,” teaching her the fundamentals of being a high-born lady was the focus of her education. Arya thus developed her potential as a combatant / killer during her long trek through the Riverlands. She learned from experience, most of it brutal, but was never taught any of the ethics important to combat. Contrast Brienne as an example. Arya had the benefit of exposure to some honorable values before being plunged into the mayhem of war, which manifests as a kind of sense of justice, but in reality is vengeance based on half-baked notions of justice. In her own way, she’s as ruthless as those on her prayer list. No doubt Jaqen recognized the value in recruiting a child whose nature and conditioning provided fertile ground for further training in the art of death.  

So is Arya guilty? I would say on account of her youth and conditioning, she is not entirely responsible for her actions. She would benefit from a rehabilitation program.

[Corvo the Crow]

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[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Now that I think of it, there are no adult Starks are left at this point, nor any male ones, even Sansa who is ahead of her in succession is missing, as far as she knows, that is if she ever cares to think about it, Arya is the head of the Starks.

Even if she believes she is the head of house Stark, she still can't do it because she's not of age.

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

sentenced for his crime of raping a highborn lady, the maiden daughter of Lord Rowan of  Goldengrove

There's no evidence either way. Dareon could be totally innocent of that crime.

Also if it wasn't in Westeros, then how was she within her rights to kill him? If she was, then why didn't Ned go and off Jorah for deserting when he ran off east?

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Arya should’ve petitioned the Sealord first instead of undermining his authority and risking the lives of good citizens of Braavos through wanton violence in it’s streets.

Yes. Though it was probably only a matter of time before Dareon got killed by some Bravo anyway.

[Corvo the Crow]

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[Craving Peaches]

4 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Not necessarily. We see regencies for underage but just look at Joffrey with queen regent and an entire council of regency he does what he wants.

I'd argue Joffrey is not a very good example as his regents don't tell him no a lot. With other regents they seem to take a more active role.

6 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Dude come on, don't be an armchair reader, Immerse yourself in the world, get into the medival mind set.

If we really get into the medieval mindset, then marital rape doesn't exist. This means that Aerys did not rape Rhaella, because he was her husband.

If the sex was consensual, I don't think it's fair to label Dareon a rapist, because he just isn't one. Lord Rowan saying he was meant he was treated like one. If he was innocent then he's been confined to a penal colony for the rest of his life because he didn't want to be executed/castrated. I don't think that's a fair punishment if he was just being irresponsible, which he would've been if he was innocent.

[Nevets]

I suppose she could have done the local equivalent of a Mexican extradition; get some friends together and stuff him on a boat to White Harbor with a message to Lord Manderly saying Dareon is a deserter and to please execute him. 

[Finley McLeod]

On 10/15/2022 at 4:31 AM, Craving Peaches said:

Personally I believe Arya is guilty of murder, because I do not think that her killing of Dareon was legal (or moral but that is another matter).

I do not think there is much need to discuss whether there was both a mental and conduct element to Arya's crime (and this is not necessarily relevant to the world of the book anyway). From her point-of-view chapters it is quite clear that she intended to kill Dareon and did kill him.

However if Arya had the authority to kill Dareon, then it would not be murder (in universe). But I do not think she has this authority, for the following reasons:

1. She is not an adult.

2. She is not head of House Stark and has no reason to believe herself to be the head of House Stark, nor did the head of House Stark vest in her the power to carry out executions on their behalf.

3. She is not a member of the Night's Watch or acting on behalf of the Iron Throne.

4. Braavos is outside of the Jurisdiction of the Night's Watch, House Stark and the Iron Throne.

Also, Arya did not follow the example set out by her father for executing deserters, though I am not sure if this in itself would render her act illegal. Though I believe it is already illegal, because due to the above reasons she lacks the authority to carry out an execution.

It was murder as well as revenge.  Arya is not functioning mentally and carried out this murder because Dareon offended her broken emotions.  Dareon was an offense to her.  Jon, to be specific.  Arya had no legal right, no jurisdiction, and no justification to murder that boy.  Dareon is a minor person in the story but I feel very sorry for him and his tough luck in life.  

[Craving Peaches]

14 minutes ago, Finley McLeod said:

Arya is not functioning mentally

She's not tip top but I don't think she's reached the point where she's dysfunctional.

14 minutes ago, Finley McLeod said:

Dareon was an offense to her.  Jon, to be specific.

What offended her was that he was a deserter from the Watch. I don't think she mentions him being an offence to Jon.

 

[Nevets]

A couple of things worth remembering:

1. Arya is in Braavos under an assumed identity.  Nobody outside the FM is even aware of who she is.  So the idea that she is capable of acting in any sort of official or quasi-official capacity is a bit ridiculous.  It's hard to be official if you're pretending to be someone else.  And that's assuming she could be official, which I doubt.

Dareon's original guilt or innocence might be relevant to whether he should be in the Night's Watch, but it is totally irrelevant when analyzing Arya's conduct.  She knows nothing about his past; only what she's seen and heard in Braavos.  And that is that he is a deserter; he abandoned Sam and Aemon, his NW Brothers; and he's living the high life, having fun and giving a big "fuck you" to the NW.  Given her background as Ned Stark's daughter, I'm not entirely surprised the angry, traumatized 11-year-old put a knife in him.

[Finley McLeod]

8 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

She's not tip top but I don't think she's reached the point where she's dysfunctional.

What offended her was that he was a deserter from the Watch. I don't think she mentions him being an offence to Jon.

 

Arya is not completely dysfunctional.  She plotted the killing of the Insurance Man and lured Raff to her bedroom to off him.  She is emotionally damaged and her sanity is damaged.  She can still put together and construct a plan to kill people.