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MCU: KEVIN's world


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7 hours ago, Heartofice said:

 

Oh.

 

Dunno that I’d go that far… but WF is definitely lacking the pacing of BP.  And while Namor is certainly a sympathetic villain, he is nowhere as magnetic a presence as Killmonger.

Overall, I give the movie an “Eh… it’s aight.”  I could say it was one of the stronger entries in this phase, but that’s not saying much.

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On 11/9/2022 at 5:51 PM, WarGalley said:

What kind of powers does Namor display? I don't care about spoilers but you may want to tag it..

Spoiler

He also flat out declares himself a mutant.

 

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I saw the movie last night and really enjoyed it. It was long and perhaps a bit unwieldy of a story, but I enjoyed it more than any Phase Four entry so far.

I also loved how they paid tribute to Boseman. His absence was felt, but in a balanced way. T'challa's death (and reason) was inserted so seamlessly into the story and shaped the hero's journey of the new Black Panther.

Maybe we should start a spoiler thread to freely discuss?

Edited by Myrddin
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Saw it Friday morning, and I am mixed on it.  Fine performances from everyone involved, but the plot itself doesn't stand up to much scrutiny (I know, a lot of MCU movies are like that).  Some thoughts (I guess we're still hiding spoilers):

Spoiler

- Riri Williams as a macguffin to drive conflict between Talocan and Wakanda is preposterous.  The machine has been made, killing her isn't going to stop another machine from being made.  Even if she came up with the idea for the machine in the first place, at this point the plans are in the hands of the US Government, they can make another without her.

- Beyond her status as the macguffin to drive conflict, the addition of Williams as a character feels like...too much.  You have a movie that primarily has to deal with the death of T'Challa - and how that affects many of the characters we already know.  Adding another new character to the mix just seemed a bit much to me - and almost transparently as a way to have a spin off Disney+ show.  

- Is Julia Louise Dreyfus' "Contessa Valentina Allegra de Fontaine" (I had to google that) supposed to be an overarching bad guy for the MCU? I'm skeptical of how that will work out. Her character in this movie seems different than what we've seen so far (which, admittedly has been very little).  It seemed like she was a shadow player previously...but wait...she's a high ranking (and presumably very visible) member of the CIA?  If she's American and a member of the US government...what exactly is she a Contessa of?

- Ok, the identity of the new Black Panther was hardly a surprise.  And the journey made sense in this film. But...I am skeptical of how this will work long-term for the MCU.  It's hard to fill Boseman's shoes here.  I was somewhat hoping it was going to be Okoye.  In my opinion Danai Gurira has more of a screen presence than Letitia Wright.

- More super suits and nicknames...

- Namor was fine...be interesting to see where they take him from here.  I do think it's odd that he's a guy that lives underwater...and has wings on his feet.  Seems like opposite powers there.  I guess I won't harp too much on the fact that it's odd that Talocan remained undiscovered, even though much of the ocean floor has been mapped.  Same way that Wakanda was just thought of as a backwater, I guess.   Was Talocan affected by the giant Celestial coming out of the ocean in The Eternals?

- I liked that we got a little dialogue and personality from some of the Wakandan elders that we saw in the first movie.  And also that some of the Dora Milaje besides Okoye could speak and show some personality. 

 

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I agree with you, Hokie, about how Riri was used in the movie. Too much like America Chavez, in terms of being a MacGuffin first and foremost.

I liked her character in general, but it was a weak catalyst for the whole conflict. I feel like I've seen another show/movie recently with the same "give the girl to us to kill or we attack" storyline. Can't remember off the top of my head.

 

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Saw this tonight. Really excellent work all round. Acting, set design, writing, direction. I see some folks here aren't taken with it, but I thought it was an incredible answer to what was probably the MCU's biggest challenge. When I think back to the discussions here and elsewhere about how Coogler was ever going to make this work, and then to what I saw on screen, he and the team around him answered it all.

Couple of responses below:

5 hours ago, HokieStone said:

Saw it Friday morning, and I am mixed on it.  Fine performances from everyone involved, but the plot itself doesn't stand up to much scrutiny (I know, a lot of MCU movies are like that).  Some thoughts (I guess we're still hiding spoilers):

  Hide contents

- Riri Williams as a macguffin to drive conflict between Talocan and Wakanda is preposterous.  The machine has been made, killing her isn't going to stop another machine from being made.  Even if she came up with the idea for the machine in the first place, at this point the plans are in the hands of the US Government, they can make another without her.

Two points here. First, this is how inventions work in superhero stuff and the MCU in particular - often you need the genius to make them actually work. Second, the script actually does address this anyway: Namor says it's no longer just about Riri at a fairly early stage. They move the conflict past that.

- Is Julia Louise Dreyfus' "Contessa Valentina Allegra de Fontaine" (I had to google that) supposed to be an overarching bad guy for the MCU? I'm skeptical of how that will work out. Her character in this movie seems different than what we've seen so far (which, admittedly has been very little).  It seemed like she was a shadow player previously...but wait...she's a high ranking (and presumably very visible) member of the CIA?  If she's American and a member of the US government...what exactly is she a Contessa of?

She's a Contessa and a SHIELD agent in the comics, to be fair. And she's the Contessa! It's how many comics fans actually know her. So dropping it wasn't an option.
I'll agree she comes over differently here but as you say, we have little else to go on.

- Ok, the identity of the new Black Panther was hardly a surprise.  And the journey made sense in this film. But...I am skeptical of how this will work long-term for the MCU.  It's hard to fill Boseman's shoes here.  I was somewhat hoping it was going to be Okoye.  In my opinion Danai Gurira has more of a screen presence than Letitia Wright.

I'd rather it had been Nakia, to be honest, but it was always going to be Shuri. Shuri has the lineage, Shuri has been BP in the comics, it was always going to be her.

- More super suits and nicknames...

Yes. You say that like it's a bad thing?

- Namor was fine...be interesting to see where they take him from here.  I do think it's odd that he's a guy that lives underwater...and has wings on his feet.  Seems like opposite powers there.  I guess I won't harp too much on the fact that it's odd that Talocan remained undiscovered, even though much of the ocean floor has been mapped.  Same way that Wakanda was just thought of as a backwater, I guess.   Was Talocan affected by the giant Celestial coming out of the ocean in The Eternals?

Different ocean.

 

 

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I thought he could've been a little more, I don't know. Cocky? Arrogant? But, I really liked Coogler's take on Namor. Production design was fantastic, particularly the Talokan portion. Handling of grief and legacy felt genuine, I don't have many complaints.

Agree about the Riri stuff, a bit, but they were going to shoe horn her in sooner or later [Young Avengers] 

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I caught up to Dr. Strange and the Multiverse of Madness and Thor: Love and Thunder. I think I enjoyed Dr. Strange more because

Spoiler

I liked that Scarlet Witch was the villain. Is Elizabeth Olson signed up for any future movies? I was a little surprised they killed (the 616) version off but being able to bring back multiverse versions of a character is going to get tiring for me at some point I think.

I didn't like the use of America though. Dr. Strange basically says "You need to control your power!" and poof, she has total control of her power and is able to save the day. That's a cheap solution to the ending.

Thor: Love and Thunder needed a more fleshed out villain as usual. I felt like far more time should have been spent on Bale and the Necrosword and less on Thor the dumb jock jokes or the cheating on his hammer stuff. Far too stupid and at one point I was thinking this was an insult to the comics character. Russell Crowe's greek accent was hilarious to me though and I thought that was fun. I wonder if any Greek people were offended by it. 

Spoiler

And again, they did the same thing with the kids. Thor can now grant his powers to people!? I assume he needed Zeus's thunderbolt for it but you're telling me he could have done that from the beginning and raised his own army of gods instead of trying to recruit Zeus?

I also recently finished the Mandalorian and the first episode of Obi-wan Kenobi and I have to wonder if Disney is mandating a child actor in the main role for all of it's productions. 

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5 hours ago, WarGalley said:

I also recently finished the Mandalorian and the first episode of Obi-wan Kenobi and I have to wonder if Disney is mandating a child actor in the main role for all of it's productions. 

Are you calling the puppet a child actor? :laugh:

Andor doesn't have any children except for flashback characters.

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So surprisingly I thought Wakanda Forever was ok. As someone who famously thinks Black Panther is one of the most over praised movies in the history of film, I thought this one was really not bad, and I enjoyed it in places. 

I think mainly this is a product of much lower expectations.The original Black Panther came during a time where the MCU was actually making good movies. Black Panther himself had been in the much superior Civil War and the Russo brothers had managed to create some genuinely amazing comic book movies, that looked great, were smart, had amazing action sequences and all came together. Black Panther by comparison was a bit of a mess and had some of the worst CGI I'd seen in a long time, that final fight being horrific.

The thing is, now that is the basic level for all Marvel movies. Everything has descended to that level. All the CGI looks like its shot on a sound stage, all the movies are incoherent messes with the occasional highlight. 

Wakanda Forever is certainly a step up from Love and Thunder, which is pure garbage, and it might be the pinnacle of Phase 4, which has been almost entirely disappointing. 

That doesn't make it a good movie, but it's really not a bad one either. 

Going in the signs were not good, with Boseman gone I knew they were going to centre the movie around the most obnoxious character in the MCU, who's mere presence makes me wince. But to it's credit Shuri is much improved in WF, she's no longer the irritating Mary Sue wonderkid we are being forced to like, now she has genuine flaws and doubts and feels more rounded. Of course we couldn't just be left with that so they replaced the obnoxious shaped hole with Riri Williams.. who I guess is meant to be the new Ironman like in the comics, but I really hope this all gets swept under the carpet because she's just as unlikeable as the original Shuri. 

Overall the plot was fine, but as usual it's just too long and the pacing seriously drags in the second half, but these are all standard complaints. The other standard complaint is that there is just yet another stupid CGI green-screen shootout at the end that I was completely unengaged by, was quite silly and not especially well done, but that is hardly surprising. Even with the She-Hulk final scene fiasco where they acknowledged these problems, they still keep doing it. 

The direction is good though, there are the bookending scenes at the front and back that are very well done and a number of moments that were pretty and moving. The writing is the usual standard where it just needs a lot of tightening however.

I really hope they wrap up Phase 4 and have a bit of a pause, really think about their setup of how they keep churning these mediocre movies out. Obviously this movie has an excuse for disruption and not being a straightforward process, but that is all the more reason take more time and rewrite and plan again. So many movies in this phase seemed poorly planned and rushed out and I guess Covid hasn't helped but as an overall trend the signs are not good. 

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I think BP: Wakanda Forever was ok but definitely weaker than its predecessor. They handled Boseman's death and within the story T'challa's death well.

I'm not a fan of Shuri and Letitia Wright's antics in RL were in the back of my mind. However, the writing for her character was generally good and we got some good character development there. I still would have liked it more if 

Spoiler

either Okoye and Nakia became the BP. Though the writing for Nakia had her go in a different direction.

Namor was also a good antagonist, but those wings on the legs are silly. I'm sure it's a comic book thing, but maybe that could have been changed to something better. And why couldn't they have him fight in the full costume we briefly see when his lieutenants had no problem fighting with their head gear on?

The movie did kinda lose me when

Spoiler

the queen dismissed Okoye. Her explosion at Okoye was a bit too much and some of the stuff she said was weird. Is Okoye married?

Generally the middle of the movie had pacing issues. I wasn't a fan of the CIA plot, but I suppose they had to create a conflict between Wakanda and Talokan. I agree that using Riri as a McGuffin was not the most inspired choice to create this conflict.

I did like Riri as a character. She is more Peter Parker than Tony Stark, but with Tony's engineering skills. However, I hated her armored suit. Way too much anime-like for my taste.

There was a bunch of forced humor that didn't always work, like making fun of how Okoye looks. And M'baku showing up at the end without a conclusion. What was that? He also had a bit too much plot armor. He's just a strong man, right, nothing more?

Some of the visuals looked like they were intended for 3D. Not everything looked great, but overall it was fairly solid visually.

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25 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

 

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the queen dismissed Okoye. Her explosion at Okoye was a bit too much and some of the stuff she said was weird. Is Okoye married?

 

I think they were referring to W'Kabi (I had to google the character's name) - T'Challa's buddy who sided with Killmonger in the first movie.  He rode the big rhino.  He and Okoye were in a relationship...not sure if they are married though. (The big rhino stopped and licked Okoye during the last battle).  Not sure why he wasn't in this movie - if the actor turned it down or something.  M'baku seems to be taking the role of main Wakandan male character.

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1 hour ago, HokieStone said:

 Not sure why he wasn't in this movie - if the actor turned it down or something.  M'baku seems to be taking the role of main Wakandan male character.

He was filming Nope. Considering he probably would have had a scene or two st most I'd say he made the right call. He does hope to reprise the character down the line.

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1 hour ago, SpaceChampion said:

So do you think

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in 10-12 years we get a new T'Challa as Black Panther?   If junior is about 6 years old now, joining the Young Avengers after some of them have aged out of that.

 

Spoiler

I've seen people speculate that they may use Secret Wars to age him up somehow. I wasn't clear on how that would work as I haven't read the comic. 

50 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I think Phase 7 ( maybe even 6 if things don’t improve) will be the ‘Reboot phase’ where Marvel panic and go back to the original MCU characters in some other form.

A reboot is inevitable, but that seems too soon. Unless public opinion really turns against the MCU I think it's a long ways off. It's a huge risk really. Trying to recast all those characters and meet people's expectations... it's not a job I would want. 

Edited by RumHam
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It's funny: before the MCU, we had no problem with rebooting Batman, Superman, Spiderman, Hulk, etc multiple times with multiple actors (even within a same short timeframe). Now, we've collectively agreed that only RDJ can be Tony Stark (that RDJ IS Tony Stark), Chadwick Boseman is T'Challa, etc.

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26 minutes ago, Myrddin said:

It's funny: before the MCU, we had no problem with rebooting Batman, Superman, Spiderman, Hulk, etc multiple times with multiple actors (even within a same short timeframe). Now, we've collectively agreed that only RDJ can be Tony Stark (that RDJ IS Tony Stark), Chadwick Boseman is T'Challa, etc.

In just a little over the span of a decade, we've had 3 Spider Men. It was such a short span of time, they were even able to make a movie, in which all 3 of them team up.

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