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[Spoilers]Rings of Power 3: Tolkien’s actual writing… who needs that?


Ser Scot A Ellison

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9 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

The depiction of Sauron is the thing that killed the show for me, more than anything. 
 

I can overlook the clunky dialogue and poor storytelling. I don’t really care about Galadriel being totally off, but they have essentially wrecked any idea that we should be intimidated or afraid of Sauron.
 

It’s almost impossible to connect Halbrand with Sauron in my head, how could this bloke who basically lucked his way into events through almost no agency of his own, who didn’t really do any convincing or seducing be the guy in the prologue of Fellowship, the awesome dude we are all meant to fear. 
 

That’s the point I’m like ‘naaaah’

When I first saw the leak, I thought it was too preposterous to possibly be true.  As time went on, it became more clear that despite how totally stupid the idea was, they were doing it.  They basically destroyed Sauron, Galadriel and most of the eleves because they wanted Twitter to get hooked on 'who is Sauron'.  Sad.  

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4 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think part of it might be that for the past few decades, vampires have been the base conception of what an immortal being is, and while they’re known for being brooding, they’re also typically emotionally stunted in some way. The elves in ROP could easily be vampires.

George Martin’s vampires in Fevre Dreme are a lot more interesting than the average literary vampire, because they are both human and other.  They aren’t in the main, evil, but they are desperate to survive.

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16 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think part of it might be that for the past few decades, vampires have been the base conception of what an immortal being is, and while they’re known for being brooding, they’re also typically emotionally stunted in some way. The elves in ROP could easily be vampires.

And here I thought it was the MacLeods.

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3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Elrond is the most human-like of all the elves, which I’m guessing is intentional, since they have been emphasizing his status as a half-elf (and according to people on this board, the last of the half-elves until his children are born). He seems proud of his heritage, almost defiant, like he’s challenging the elves to dare judge him for it. That’s why I’m hoping they break lore a bit and have Arwen’s mother be a human, since I think that would create a more compelling reason for him to oppose Arwen marrying Aragorn—not wanting to see his daughter suffer the hardship of outliving her spouse like he did—versus him deciding that humans are scum because Isildur was a dipshit. 

Elrond is more like a 3/5 Elf.  Eärendil was a half Elf Elwing was the child of an Elf and a Half-Elf.

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3 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Elrond is more like a 3/4 Elf.  Eärendil was a half Elf Elwing was the child of an Elf and a Half-Elf.

Dior would be reckoned as a Man, considering that Lúthien had already taken on the burden of mortality by the time she conceived and gave birth to him.

He certainly would have inherited whatever special abilities and insight the son of Lúthien and grandson of Melian should have ... but he wouldn't be viewed as a Half-Elf fate-wise.

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4 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Most of the people on this particular thread who are calling Galadriel a brat are women.

Do women not use gendered insults? I think it's quite common for them to do so.

We all exist in the same society, we all are vulnerable to the same biases. I think it's undeniable that:

- Western society has for hundreds of years belittled and dismissed women by infantilising them: treating them as and yes, calling them, children or names that suggest childishness and immaturity.

- Western society has for hundreds of years regarded the 'ideal' woman as nurturing, caring, patient, and wise while the 'ideal' man is dynamic, forceful, brave, and powerful.

Just as men who don't fit that ideal get dismissed in terms that suggest femininity, women who don't fit that ideal get dismissed in terms that suggest childishness.

Folks, let me know if any of the statements above are wrong. But there are literally volumes of research, entire fields of study, suggesting that they are correct.

So, 'brat' may not be an explicitly gendered term. But I think it's fair to say that the reaction to a character like Galadriel in this show is coloured by gender bias when the main thing that arouses anger is that she's rude to people (not that she really is: the worst you can really say is that she's sometimes a little impatient, but only in ways that are normal for male protagonists with a similar role) and that gets her labelled as 'immature' and a 'brat'.

4 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

 I don't think it's a gendered insult at all.  There does seem to be a tendency among some to silence those who are critical of something they  like, by claiming  views or tone or words are 'problematic'...such as an objection to calling Galadriel, who absolutely behaved as a rude brat, a brat.

Sometimes those people are correct.

4 hours ago, SeanF said:

Even if “brat” is a gendered term (and yet, I can remember tennis players like Ilie Nastase and John McEnroe being called brats when they misbehaved) it’s no worse than “Hooray Henry” or “Frat Boy”, which sums up a certain kind of misbehaving male jerk.

And if people were using those terms, I wouldn't give them any weight either.

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36 minutes ago, mormont said:

Do women not use gendered insults? I think it's quite common for them to do so.

We all exist in the same society, we all are vulnerable to the same biases. I think it's undeniable that:

- Western society has for hundreds of years belittled and dismissed women by infantilising them: treating them as and yes, calling them, children or names that suggest childishness and immaturity.

- Western society has for hundreds of years regarded the 'ideal' woman as nurturing, caring, patient, and wise while the 'ideal' man is dynamic, forceful, brave, and powerful.

Just as men who don't fit that ideal get dismissed in terms that suggest femininity, women who don't fit that ideal get dismissed in terms that suggest childishness.

Folks, let me know if any of the statements above are wrong. But there are literally volumes of research, entire fields of study, suggesting that they are correct.

So, 'brat' may not be an explicitly gendered term. But I think it's fair to say that the reaction to a character like Galadriel in this show is coloured by gender bias when the main thing that arouses anger is that she's rude to people (not that she really is: the worst you can really say is that she's sometimes a little impatient, but only in ways that are normal for male protagonists with a similar role) and that gets her labelled as 'immature' and a 'brat'.

Sometimes those people are correct.

And if people were using those terms, I wouldn't give them any weight either.

Cas is right on this. This sort of approach to disagreement on topics is such a regular occurrence I'm starting to think it's part of a playbook it's that predictable. You can basically note down all the steps:

1. Notice people are saying negative things about a show / movie you like and get a little riled up. 
2. Pull out one piece of criticism towards an aspect of a character or plot that is commonly stated
3. Ignore any of the actual criticism being made, never actually refute any of the claims being made or find any good arguments on why they might not be true
4. Instead start saying things like 'this is a dog-whistle for something dodgy' or 'this is the sort of criticism that 'insert minority has put up throughout history'
5. Cite events that back up your claim, usually some that happened 50+ years ago. Forget that it's 2022.
6. Say things which suggest that the person you are talking to simply is too ignorant or unintelligent to see their own innate biases, which are so clearly obvious to you, thereby negating the need to respond properly.
7. Again never actually engage with any arguments as to why you might be barking up the wrong tree or consider you might not be correct.

So just to refute what you are saying, just because there might have been historic dismissal of females in the past, that doesn't automatically mean that is what is happening here. Nor does it mean that it happens every time a female character comes under criticism. For example, two bossy screen females who are certainly 'difficult' that come to mind are Sarah Connor and Ellen Ripley. Definitely hard nosed, arrogant and don't take no shit... and those terrible misogynist trolls on the internet LOVE them! The reason being because they are well written characters with motivations and flaws and they feel like people. Nobody is going around calling them bratty.

I'm not going to repeat all the examples of why Galadriel might accurately be described as a 'brat' or all the occasions where she demands unearned respect or talks down to people, because this thread has gone over it many times. But a lot of people have put forward arguments as to why her character might have some issues, and I think they deserve a bit more respect than some preachy lecture about 'historic injustice'.

Plus, as I said before, but obviously you aren't reading, but for the benefit of everyone else, she's young, she looks young!! 

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George Carlin erased any credibility of "soft language" initiatives a decade-and-a-half ago. 

If the word "brat" gives you hundreds upon hundreds of words' worth of anxiety then you live with great privilege. 

What moral, physical, and editorial certainty you must enjoy at all times. 

 

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"Don't use these kinda words in these kinda ways, especially on these special days. Find a way to say your say any way but the way we say you can't say what it is you'd like to say, ok? And hey, no argues! Argues are bad, and make people feel worse. Worse than worse, they do the worst on those who want to be the worst! Argues gives verbal cover to BAD BADS who want to take all the nice words that make happies and replace them with bad words that make SADDIES. Don't be a Baddie, don't make SADDIES. Be Best and only connect characters that initiate feelings of euphoria and passivity, and especially most especially, don't rock the boat."

Where have I seen such juvenile thought controlling techniques...? Damn, this is so hard! I'll get back to this line of thought when I return from evening Mass.

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4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Elrond is the most human-like of all the elves, which I’m guessing is intentional, since they have been emphasizing his status as a half-elf (and according to people on this board, the last of the half-elves until his children are born). He seems proud of his heritage, almost defiant, like he’s challenging the elves to dare judge him for it. That’s why I’m hoping they break lore a bit and have Arwen’s mother be a human, since I think that would create a more compelling reason for him to oppose Arwen marrying Aragorn—not wanting to see his daughter suffer the hardship of outliving her spouse like he did—versus him deciding that humans are scum because Isildur was a dipshit. 

The real story is good! Elrond loved Aragorn, he just didn't want Arwen to stay in middle earth. It's a pretty compelling reason, because of what she would be giving up, and Aragorn felt it was, too. Galadriel plays her part bringing them together, too!

'It came to pass that when Aragorn was nine and forty years of age he returned from perils on the dark confines of Mordor, where Sauron now dwelt again and was busy with evil. He was weary and he wished to go back to Rivendell and rest there for a while ere he journeyed into the far countries; and on his way he came to the borders of Lórien and was admitted to the hidden land by the Lady Galadriel.

'He did not know it, but Arwen Undómiel was also there, dwelling again for a time with the kin of her mother. She was little changed, for the mortal years had passed her by, yet her face was more grave, and her laughter now seldom was heard. But Aragorn was grown to full stature of body and mind, and Galadriel bade him cast aside his wayworn raiment, and she clothed him in silver and white, with a cloak of elven-grey and a bright gem on his brow. Then more than any kind of Men he appeared, and seemed rather an Elf-lord from the Isles of the West. And thus it was that Arwen first beheld him again after their long parting; and as he came walking towards her under the trees of Caras Galadhon laden with flowers of gold, her choice was made and her doom appointed.

Then for a season they wandered together in the glades of Lothlórien, until it was time for him to depart. And on the evening of Midsummer Aragorn, Arathorn's son, and Arwen daughter of Elrond went to the fair hill, Cerin Amroth, in the midst of the land, and they walked unshod on the undying grass with elanor and niphredil about their feet. And there upon that hill they looked east to the Shadow and west to the Twilight, and they plighted their troth and were glad...

'When Elrond learned the choice of his daughter, he was silent, though his heart was grieved and found the doom long feared none the easier to endure. But when Aragorn came again to Rivendell he called him to him, and he said:

'"My son, years come when hope will fade, and beyond them little is clear to me. And now a shadow lies between us. Maybe, it has been appointed so, that by my loss the kingship of Men may be restored. Therefore, though I love you, I say to you: Arwen Undómiel shall not diminish her life's grace for less cause. She shall not be the bride of any Man less than the King of both Gondor and Arnor. To me then even our victory can bring only sorrow and parting - but to you hope of joy for a while. For a while. Alas, my son! I fear that to Arwen the Doom of Men may seem hard at the ending."

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11 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

The real story is good! Elrond loved Aragorn, he just didn't want Arwen to stay in middle earth. It's a pretty compelling reason, because of what she would be giving up, and Aragorn felt it was, too. Galadriel plays her part bringing them together, too!

'It came to pass that when Aragorn was nine and forty years of age he returned from perils on the dark confines of Mordor, where Sauron now dwelt again and was busy with evil. He was weary and he wished to go back to Rivendell and rest there for a while ere he journeyed into the far countries; and on his way he came to the borders of Lórien and was admitted to the hidden land by the Lady Galadriel.

'He did not know it, but Arwen Undómiel was also there, dwelling again for a time with the kin of her mother. She was little changed, for the mortal years had passed her by, yet her face was more grave, and her laughter now seldom was heard. But Aragorn was grown to full stature of body and mind, and Galadriel bade him cast aside his wayworn raiment, and she clothed him in silver and white, with a cloak of elven-grey and a bright gem on his brow. Then more than any kind of Men he appeared, and seemed rather an Elf-lord from the Isles of the West. And thus it was that Arwen first beheld him again after their long parting; and as he came walking towards her under the trees of Caras Galadhon laden with flowers of gold, her choice was made and her doom appointed.

Then for a season they wandered together in the glades of Lothlórien, until it was time for him to depart. And on the evening of Midsummer Aragorn, Arathorn's son, and Arwen daughter of Elrond went to the fair hill, Cerin Amroth, in the midst of the land, and they walked unshod on the undying grass with elanor and niphredil about their feet. And there upon that hill they looked east to the Shadow and west to the Twilight, and they plighted their troth and were glad...

'When Elrond learned the choice of his daughter, he was silent, though his heart was grieved and found the doom long feared none the easier to endure. But when Aragorn came again to Rivendell he called him to him, and he said:

'"My son, years come when hope will fade, and beyond them little is clear to me. And now a shadow lies between us. Maybe, it has been appointed so, that by my loss the kingship of Men may be restored. Therefore, though I love you, I say to you: Arwen Undómiel shall not diminish her life's grace for less cause. She shall not be the bride of any Man less than the King of both Gondor and Arnor. To me then even our victory can bring only sorrow and parting - but to you hope of joy for a while. For a while. Alas, my son! I fear that to Arwen the Doom of Men may seem hard at the ending."

Yes.  It is.  :) 

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33 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

The real story is good! Elrond loved Aragorn, he just didn't want Arwen to stay in middle earth. It's a pretty compelling reason, because of what she would be giving up, and Aragorn felt it was, too. Galadriel plays her part bringing them together, too!

'It came to pass that when Aragorn was nine and forty years of age he returned from perils on the dark confines of Mordor, where Sauron now dwelt again and was busy with evil. He was weary and he wished to go back to Rivendell and rest there for a while ere he journeyed into the far countries; and on his way he came to the borders of Lórien and was admitted to the hidden land by the Lady Galadriel.

'He did not know it, but Arwen Undómiel was also there, dwelling again for a time with the kin of her mother. She was little changed, for the mortal years had passed her by, yet her face was more grave, and her laughter now seldom was heard. But Aragorn was grown to full stature of body and mind, and Galadriel bade him cast aside his wayworn raiment, and she clothed him in silver and white, with a cloak of elven-grey and a bright gem on his brow. Then more than any kind of Men he appeared, and seemed rather an Elf-lord from the Isles of the West. And thus it was that Arwen first beheld him again after their long parting; and as he came walking towards her under the trees of Caras Galadhon laden with flowers of gold, her choice was made and her doom appointed.

Then for a season they wandered together in the glades of Lothlórien, until it was time for him to depart. And on the evening of Midsummer Aragorn, Arathorn's son, and Arwen daughter of Elrond went to the fair hill, Cerin Amroth, in the midst of the land, and they walked unshod on the undying grass with elanor and niphredil about their feet. And there upon that hill they looked east to the Shadow and west to the Twilight, and they plighted their troth and were glad...

'When Elrond learned the choice of his daughter, he was silent, though his heart was grieved and found the doom long feared none the easier to endure. But when Aragorn came again to Rivendell he called him to him, and he said:

'"My son, years come when hope will fade, and beyond them little is clear to me. And now a shadow lies between us. Maybe, it has been appointed so, that by my loss the kingship of Men may be restored. Therefore, though I love you, I say to you: Arwen Undómiel shall not diminish her life's grace for less cause. She shall not be the bride of any Man less than the King of both Gondor and Arnor. To me then even our victory can bring only sorrow and parting - but to you hope of joy for a while. For a while. Alas, my son! I fear that to Arwen the Doom of Men may seem hard at the ending."

The sad thing is that it ended badly.

Immortals should not wed mortals.  Poor Mithrellas took a while to realise she’d see everyone she loved, and their descendants all die, so she fled.

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2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The sad thing is that it ended badly.

Immortals should not wed mortals.  Poor Mithrellas took a while to realise she’d see everyone she loved, and their descendants all die, so she fled.

It didn’t end badly.  Many are mournful as they age…

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One of the definitions of 'brat' is an immature, ill-mannered person.  This most definitely describes show Galadriel.  I'm not sure whataboutism regarding other fictional male characters who are alleged to have similar traits is useful.   I watched ROP.  My impression is that Galadriel was rude, a jerk, a brat, an asshole, a bad commander and ultimately a traitor.  Her being female should not exempt her from these labels.

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55 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

The real story is good! Elrond loved Aragorn, he just didn't want Arwen to stay in middle earth. It's a pretty compelling reason, because of what she would be giving up, and Aragorn felt it was, too. Galadriel plays her part bringing them together, too!

'It came to pass that when Aragorn was nine and forty years of age he returned from perils on the dark confines of Mordor, where Sauron now dwelt again and was busy with evil. He was weary and he wished to go back to Rivendell and rest there for a while ere he journeyed into the far countries; and on his way he came to the borders of Lórien and was admitted to the hidden land by the Lady Galadriel.

'He did not know it, but Arwen Undómiel was also there, dwelling again for a time with the kin of her mother. She was little changed, for the mortal years had passed her by, yet her face was more grave, and her laughter now seldom was heard. But Aragorn was grown to full stature of body and mind, and Galadriel bade him cast aside his wayworn raiment, and she clothed him in silver and white, with a cloak of elven-grey and a bright gem on his brow. Then more than any kind of Men he appeared, and seemed rather an Elf-lord from the Isles of the West. And thus it was that Arwen first beheld him again after their long parting; and as he came walking towards her under the trees of Caras Galadhon laden with flowers of gold, her choice was made and her doom appointed.

Then for a season they wandered together in the glades of Lothlórien, until it was time for him to depart. And on the evening of Midsummer Aragorn, Arathorn's son, and Arwen daughter of Elrond went to the fair hill, Cerin Amroth, in the midst of the land, and they walked unshod on the undying grass with elanor and niphredil about their feet. And there upon that hill they looked east to the Shadow and west to the Twilight, and they plighted their troth and were glad...

'When Elrond learned the choice of his daughter, he was silent, though his heart was grieved and found the doom long feared none the easier to endure. But when Aragorn came again to Rivendell he called him to him, and he said:

'"My son, years come when hope will fade, and beyond them little is clear to me. And now a shadow lies between us. Maybe, it has been appointed so, that by my loss the kingship of Men may be restored. Therefore, though I love you, I say to you: Arwen Undómiel shall not diminish her life's grace for less cause. She shall not be the bride of any Man less than the King of both Gondor and Arnor. To me then even our victory can bring only sorrow and parting - but to you hope of joy for a while. For a while. Alas, my son! I fear that to Arwen the Doom of Men may seem hard at the ending."

I think this is within the movie canon though, where Elrond didn’t want his daughter to marry Aragorn because he thought humans were weak and selfish and died young.

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1 minute ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think this is within the movie canon though, where Elrond didn’t want his daughter to marry Aragorn because he thought humans were weak and selfish and died young.

He loved Aragorn in the movie, too. Let's face it, Aragorn was one heck of a lovable guy.

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Anyway, I wasn't a fan of Galadriel's characterization either, but I didn't find her particularly rude or a jerk or brat or whatever.  She was maybe disrespectful when she first showed up at Numenor, but that's all I really recall from the first five episode.  In the last three episodes, which I watched on Saturday and remember better, we have her:  comforting and bonding with Isildur; comforting, giving advice, and encouraging Theo; showing respect to Miriel and forming a bond and a pact with her; reconciling with Elrond and asking him to trust her; and saving Halbrand's life then growing suspicious of him.  Her neglecting to tell Elrond and Celebrimbor about Sauron is still interminably stupid, but I really don't see brattiness.

And frankly, it pales in comparison to my disappointment in Gil-Galad's characterization, who just comes off as a dick in the handful of scenes he's in.

19 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think this is within the movie canon though, where Elrond didn’t want his daughter to marry Aragorn because he thought humans were weak and selfish and died young.

I didn't get that from the films.  Well, he thought men were weak, yes, but that wasn't his reasoning for why he didn't want Arwen to marry Aragorn.  Granted, his insane demand that Aragorn can only marry his daughter if he unites the two kingdoms, one defunct, isn't there.  But he didn't want Arwen to marry him for pretty similar reasons - he didn't want her to suffer and he loves her.  Specifically I recall the one scene where he asks her "don't I have your love too?"

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1 hour ago, SeanF said:

The sad thing is that it ended badly.

Immortals should not wed mortals.  Poor Mithrellas took a while to realise she’d see everyone she loved, and their descendants all die, so she fled.

She would have missed him forever. This way she gets to express all the love she has for him, then follows him to whatever be the fate of mortals.

“Yet at the last Beren was slain by the Wolf that came from the gates of Angband, and he died in the arms of Tinúviel. But she chose mortality, and to die from the world, so that she might follow him; and it is sung that they met again beyond the Sundering Seas, and after a brief time walking alive once more in the green woods, together they passed, long ago, beyond the confines of this world. So it is that Lúthien Tinúviel alone of the Elf-kindred has died indeed and left the world, and they have lost her whom they most loved.”

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