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Will Danaerys be Able to Invade Westeros?


Corvo the Crow

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Martin will develop the story in a way in which the invasion is credible, even though now it seems to be almost impossible for her to do it.

It will be more or less similar to the show version of it: Unsullied + Dothrakis + Ironborn (Iron Fleet with Victarion) + Dorne.

And then there's the question of fAegon and The Golden Company, which I don't have the answer for.

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5 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

As for diminishing Dany's culpability in Drogo's actions because she is his "property", that argument doesn't work. The fans who love Drogo (I'm not one of them) love him because he wasn't like the other khals.  He was her "sun and stars", and she was the "moon of his life".  You can't credit Dany for convincing Drogo to stop some of the rapes while simultaneously claiming she has no influence over him.

I just wanted to add that you may love Drogo but at large he was like the other khals. The only difference is that he did not share her. Also, Daenerys is entirely blameless for Drogo's actions and his khalasar as she did not get there on her own volition, neither she could stop them from doing what they did, nor did they behave the way they behaved because of her. She could only try to mitigate things and luckly, she could do that.

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Holding children accountable and punishing them is not objectionable.  So consider Arya.  She is a child but murders people.  Cersei took the life of her best friend when they were children.  Jon was young when he killed Janos Slynt.  Twelve is a good age to hold a person accountable for participating in slavery.  Twelve is also old enough to make them dangerous. 

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4 hours ago, Ingelheim said:

It will be more or less similar to the show version of it: Unsullied + Dothrakis + Ironborn (Iron Fleet with Victarion) + Dorne.

And then there's the question of fAegon and The Golden Company, which I don't have the answer for.

Dorne?

Where have you been? Why would Dorne support Dany? You have already have an answer for the fAgeon and Golden Company question...it is Dorne.

Dorne is not going to support Dany. Arianne, the key to Dorne, doesn't like Dany, doesn't like Quentyn and is fascinated by Aegon. Quentyn's death is going to be blamed on Dany.

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6 hours ago, Ingelheim said:

Martin will develop the story in a way in which the invasion is credible, even though now it seems to be almost impossible for her to do it.

It will be more or less similar to the show version of it: Unsullied + Dothrakis + Ironborn (Iron Fleet with Victarion) + Dorne.

And then there's the question of fAegon and The Golden Company, which I don't have the answer for.

After Quentyn's deaths nearly all chances of Dorne siding with Daenerys have been crushed, and Arianne's decision to side with Aegon will be the final nail on the coffin.

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8 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

I don't diminish anything because Daenerys was indeed Drogo's property. She was sold to him and it's noted by others and as well by her

I'm not denying that she was sold to Drogo and was thus initially treated as property.  Saying that any influence over him that she clearly has does not count because she is "property" is ridiculous.  She had influence over him.  Khals invade and slaughter because that's what they do, but Khal Drogo attacked that village because the attempt on Dany's life convinced Drogo to victimize innocents to sell them as slaves... at Dany's urging.

8 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

The fact that she fell in love with Drogo does not change that, as also it does not change the way his khalasar behaved

Well of course the fact that she fell in love with Drogo doesn't change their relationship's beginning.  And of course it doesn't change how the khalasar behaved.  It does change the level of culpability Dany has in the whole event.

8 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

Honestly, what do you thik it would have happened if Daeenerys wasn't there?

Dany spared a small portion of the women from being raped, after they already were raped.  Good for Dany (not sarcasm).  Drogo's khal would not have been there if not for Dany, not at that specific time.  Was Khal Drogo a monster without Dany's influence?  Yes.  Did she make him a kinder man?  Also, yes... but still a monster.  But his quest to purchase that many slaves to buy that many ships was to get the "iron chair" that Drogo never previously cared about until Dany convinced him.

8 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

It’s just very odd that you want to blame a child bride for the actions of the man she was sold to

I blame Drogo for Drogo's actions.  Drogo is one of my top villains of AGOT, and Dany isn't even on that list.  But did Dany influence him?  Yes she did.

You can't call 14-year-old Dany a "child" while just arguing that the 12-year-olds she ordered to be slaughtered were not children.

8 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

especially when you claim he was doing those things “for her” when he was doing them for his unborn son more than anything

Yes.  Dany's argument for the Iron Throne was about their son because that is the best way to convince him.  We also knew she called herself a queen.  Her argument was for her son, but she wanted it for herself.  I never denied that Drogo is sexist.  He certainly is.  But he's a sexist who respects and is influenced by his wife, unlike most other khals.

8 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

It’s even odder that you act like if she only told them she wasn’t interested in the Iron Throne or Westeros they would magically change their entire way of life and stop pillaging forever and ever.

Drogo was only interested in the Iron Throne because she made him interested.  I find it odd that you claim the Dothraki aren't savages, and then keep talking about how them changing their nature would be "magical".  And also later claim that Dany eventually will have that "magical" ability when she becomes their leader.

8 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

No matter how much you say you don't blame her, you do seem to do so, because you think she was ok with them selling slaves to get home.

I never said I don't blame her.  I blame Drogo for his own actions.  People are to blame for their own actions.  And I blame Dany for her complicity in it.  And her hypocrisy for later claiming to be the "break of chains" when she clearly was at one point okay with enslaving.

Can you defend this quote then?  So far you haven't.  How was she not (reluctantly) okay with slavery?

"Slaves, Dany thought.  Khal Drogo would drive them downriver to one of the towns on Slaver's Bay.  She wanted to cry, but she told herself she must be strong.  This is war, this is what it looks like, this is the price of the Iron Throne."

8 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

We know she is not ok with atrocities being made to restore her family name because she does not feel ok with it and she tries what she can to make things a bit better. We know she is not ok with slavery because as soon as she is khaleesi in her own right she frees the remaining khalasar and she starts a revolution to free slaves as well as delaing her sailing to Westeros to ensure those she freed stay free.

Yeah, she wants to cry.  But it is an acceptable price.  Obviously she is against rape, so I give her that.  She considers the murder and enslavement okay, it seems.  If she found Drogo's promise as repulsive as she should have, it would have been nice for her thoughts to somehow demonstrate that..

I never said Dany was pure monster.  Her decision at the end of ASOS was the beginning of her attempt to be a peaceful queen, which she seems to give up on at the end of ADWD as she embraces fire and blood.  This is her full quote.  Not wanting Meereen to fall apart was one reason she stayed behind, but she had practical reasons too (letting her dragons grow so they would be a bigger force of destruction), and of course plot reasons that George Martin wasn't ready for her arrival in Westeros yet.

"But how can I rule seven kingdoms if I cannot rule a single city?  My children need time to heal and learn. My dragons need time to grow and test their wings. And I need the same. I will not let this city go the way of Astapor. I will not let the harpy of Yunkai chain up those I've freed all over again."

8 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

LMAO, "drawn to mass murder"???:lol:

I didn't say "mass murder", I said "mass murderer".  What else would you call Daario?  Every time he gloats about how many men he kills, with pleasure, Dany finds him increasingly more attractive.  She's obviously drawn to him.  She obviously has a type.  Daario is a monster.  Dany admits as much:

"He would make a monster of me," she whispered, "a butcher queen." But then she thought of Drogon far away, and the dragons in the pit. There is blood on my hands too, and on my heart. We are not so different, Daario and I. We are both monsters.

I appreciate Dany's self-realizations and her resistance to embrace her inner monster, but this was when she still successfully resisted Daario.  It is a big turning point for Dany when she gives into her lusts... and a bad turning point.

8 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

A woman chosing her lover for the first time in her life (and renouncing at him for a shitty peace and a fragile one) is not a sign of her being a lunatic.

I never called Dany a lunatic.  I don't think she is "mad" and I don't think that is her future storyline.

Great that she can choose her own lover, but why did she choose someone she thinks of as a "monster"?

8 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

Her nickname for Baristan is not a mockery. I think it's a warmth and playful one and she calls him that because he literally behaves like a grandfather.

It most certainly is mockery.  It was an insulting term her "monster" lover made up for him, and she adopted it.  Barristan himself found the name insulting (though he didn't know that Dany also called him that... behind his back).

8 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

Her embracing her heritage is her not bowing anymore to the master's wishes and their institutionalized violence.

We'll see.  Neither of us knows what she will do from here.  I think she is done with Meereen, no longer cares about its fate, and is ready to invade Westeros.

8 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

He bought her and he raped her. If that does not mean she is a property, then IDK what it is.

This horse has been beaten.  Yes, she was bought.  Their first night together was consensual, but their acts together in their journey across the Dothraki Sea can certainly be considered rape.  I never said they had an admiral love story.  I said Dany had influence over Drogo.  She did.  The fact that he originally bought her is the not the ultimate refutation of that fact.

8 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

She does not think poorly of them. She cares about her khalasar and protects them.

I'm not talking about her tiny khalasar, the few who chose to bow down and worship her.  I'm talking about the Dothraki people as a whole.

8 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

Well, if you think that being a leader does not have any bearing on how your people will behave IDK what to say.

Name one leader who came to a huge population and drastically changed their ways (180 degree turn) overnight.

8 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

Again harm no one under 12 =/= kill everyone over 11 (not even within the master's class she stroke at). It baffles me that you take an order that it's made to prevent casualties and deaths of children and spin it as "Daenerys killed children".:lol:

If 14-year-old Dany (13 when they first got married, but still older than 12) is a child bride (your words), then Dany kills children.

But this whole 12-year-old thing is a tangent from my original point that Dany limits casualties.

And yes, kill every man wearing a tokar but spare those under 12 does = kill every boy 12 and over wearing a tokar.

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9 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

but Khal Drogo attacked that village because the attempt on Dany's life convinced Drogo to victimize innocents to sell them as slaves... at Dany's urging.

It was not as Danenerys' urging. As you said, it was because of the attempt on her life.

 

9 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

It does change the level of culpability Dany has in the whole event.

No, it does not. Because Khal Drogo attacked that village because of the poisoning attempt, not because Daenerys said so

 

9 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

You can't call 14-year-old Dany a "child" while just arguing that the 12-year-olds she ordered to be slaughtered were not children.

Where did I say 12 years old are not children? All I said is that "harm no child under 12" =/= kill everyone over 11 and that characters in ASOIAF view age different than we do.

9 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

Yes.  Dany's argument for the Iron Throne was about their son because that is the best way to convince him.  We also knew she called herself a queen.  Her argument was for her son, but she wanted it for herself.  I never denied that Drogo is sexist.  He certainly is.  But he's a sexist who respects and is influenced by his wife, unlike most other khals.

Khal Drogo was not convinced the single time she asked him to sail to Westeros. He was convinced after the attack and only because of the attack and Daenerys only told him what happened. She started to call herself a queen before entering the pyre because her brother was dead at that point. You really over estimate her influence on him.

 

9 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

Drogo was only interested in the Iron Throne because she made him interested.  I find it odd that you claim the Dothraki aren't savages, and then keep talking about how them changing their nature would be "magical".  And also later claim that Dany eventually will have that "magical" ability when she becomes their leader.

I said it that way because at that point she was Drogo's khaleesi, they were not her khalasar, they were his, they obeyed him and only him and I doubt Drogo would have been persuaded to just stay in Essos. Whereas her becoming the Khal of all Khals means they will answer to her, not Drogo (or anyone else), as it was in AGOT. If you noticed, everytime she fought with his men she had to threaten them with him.

 

9 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

I never said I don't blame her.  I blame Drogo for his own actions.  People are to blame for their own actions.  And I blame Dany for her complicity in it.  And her hypocrisy for later claiming to be the "break of chains" when she clearly was at one point okay with enslaving.

Can you defend this quote then?  So far you haven't.  How was she not (reluctantly) okay with slavery?

"Slaves, Dany thought.  Khal Drogo would drive them downriver to one of the towns on Slaver's Bay.  She wanted to cry, but she told herself she must be strong.  This is war, this is what it looks like, this is the price of the Iron Throne."

It's not a hypocrisy realising that slavery is awaful. As she herself said, only in Astapor her eyes were opened and yes, I can defend that quote because right after she demostrates she can't harden her heart so we see she is not ok with what is happening.

Also, the title "breaker of chains" is not self given. Tyrion also calls her that and she only thinks once of herself as "the breaker of chains", which is earned, given that she freed thousands of slaves.

 

9 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

Yeah, she wants to cry.  But it is an acceptable price.  Obviously she is against rape, so I give her that.  She considers the murder and enslavement okay, it seems.  If she found Drogo's promise as repulsive as she should have, it would have been nice for her thoughts to somehow demonstrate that..

She does not find it an acceptable price because she tries to do as much as possible to make things a bit better. I doubt she could have persuaded Drogo to not sell anyone or not ever and ever do such things she witnessed. She did as much as she could have done. As I said earlier, when she wants to claim the rape victims as her own, to protect them, she wonders if she had dared too much. IDK what more you wanted her to do, or what more do you think she could have done.

 

9 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

I never said Dany was pure monster.  Her decision at the end of ASOS was the beginning of her attempt to be a peaceful queen, which she seems to give up on at the end of ADWD as she embraces fire and blood.  This is her full quote.  Not wanting Meereen to fall apart was one reason she stayed behind, but she had practical reasons too (letting her dragons grow so they would be a bigger force of destruction), and of course plot reasons that George Martin wasn't ready for her arrival in Westeros yet.

"But how can I rule seven kingdoms if I cannot rule a single city?  My children need time to heal and learn. My dragons need time to grow and test their wings. And I need the same. I will not let this city go the way of Astapor. I will not let the harpy of Yunkai chain up those I've freed all over again."

 
Not wanting Meereen to fall apart was her MAIN reason to stay, not just one of the reasons. That's why she keeps refusing any offer to leave.
 
"Many and more of us would die."
"Those left behind in Meereen would envy them their easy deaths," moaned Reznak. "They will make slaves of us, or throw us in the pits. All will be as it was, or worse."
"Where is your courage?" Ser Barristan lashed out. "Her Grace freed you from your chains. It is for you to sharpen your swords and defend your own freedom when she leaves."
"Brave words, from one who means to sail into the sunset," Symon Stripeback snarled back. "Will you look back at our dying?"
"Your Grace-"
"Magnificence-"
"Your Worship-"
"Enough. " Dany slapped the table. "No one will be left to die. You are all my people." Her dreams of home and love had blinded her. "I will not abandon Meereen to the fate of Astapor. It grieves me to say so, but Westeros must wait."
Groleo was aghast. "We must accept these ships. If we refuse this gift ..."
Ser Barristan went to one knee before her. "My queen, your realm has need of you. You are not wanted here, but in Westeros men will flock to your banners by the thousands, great lords and noble knights. ' She is come, ' they will shout to one another, in glad voices. ' Prince Rhaegar's sister has come home at last. ' "
"If they love me so much, they will wait for me." Dany stood. - A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys III
 
"Dorne is too far away. To please this prince, I would need to abandon all my people. You should send him home." - A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys VIII
 
And she is a peaceful queen. She showed that in ADWD by making reforms, creating a new economy, forging alliances, passing laws, listening daily to her subject's pleas etc. Her problem was that she tried to be peaceful in a time of war.
 
 
9 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

It is a big turning point for Dany when she gives into her lusts... and a bad turning point.

 

LMAO "she gives into her lusts.." :lol:

 
9 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

but why did she choose someone she thinks of as a "monster"?

 

She does not love Daario for that. She loves him for his gentler moments, like giving her flowers and for respecting her wishes, because he is a generous lover and because she is attracted to his looks. Also, you ignore that she also sends him away precisely because she thinks he is violent.

Yes,Daario is not the perfect guy but he seems to care about her, tries to spare her from seeing the dead children, gives her flowers, makes her feel happy and free, compliments her, remains loyal to her even after others betray her, reminds her of her duties to her people, seems to care about Dany’s ideals and her fight against slavery, and respects her consent, power and agency.

 

9 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

It most certainly is mockery.  It was an insulting term her "monster" lover made up for him, and she adopted it.  Barristan himself found the name insulting (though he didn't know that Dany also called him that... behind his back)

 

"Very gallant," said Ser Barristan, in a tone that suggested it was anything but, "but do you have tidings for Her Grace?"
"Hard tidings, Ser Grandfather. Astapor is gone, and the slavers are coming north in strength."
"This is old news, and stale," growled the Shavepate.
 
[...]
 
Ser Barristan frowned at Daario. "Captain, you made mention of four free companies. We know of only three. The Windblown, the Long Lances, and the Company of the Cat."
"Ser Grandfather knows how to count. The Second Sons have gone over to the Yunkai'i." Daario turned his head and spat. "That's for Brown Ben Plumm. When next I see his ugly face I will open him from throat to groin and rip out his black heart."
- A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys VI
 
Where does Barristan find him insulting? Also, Daenerys never thinks insulting things about Barristan when she thinks of him as Ser Grandfather (she does not call him that, but only thinks of him as such).
 
If I could, I would. Khal Drogo had been her sun-and-stars, but he had been dead so long that Daenerys had almost forgotten how it felt to love and be loved. Daario had helped her to remember. I was dead and he brought me back to life. I was asleep and he woke me. My brave captain. Even so, of late he grew too bold. On the day that he returned from his latest sortie, he had tossed the head of a Yunkish lord at her feet and kissed her in the hall for all the world to see, until Barristan Selmy pulled the two of them apart. Ser Grandfather had been so wroth that Dany feared blood might be shed. "We cannot wed, my love. You know why."  - A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys VII
 
At the base of the Great Pyramid, Ser Barristan awaited them beside an ornate open palanquin, surrounded by Brazen Beasts. Ser Grandfather, Dany thought. Despite his age, he looked tall and handsome in the armor that she'd given him. - A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys IX
 
So I don't see Daenerys insulting him by thinking of him as "Ser Grandfather". This is all the quotes I found Daario calling him that or Daenerys thinking of him as Ser Grandfather. Daario does fight with him but it's because Barristan clearly does not like Daario and vice versa but Daenerys never shows desdain for him.
 
 
9 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

I think she is done with Meereen, no longer cares about its fate, and is ready to invade Westeros.

 

Well, I think you're awaful wrong about this, that she no longer cares for Meereen and her people. She is definitely done with the masters, but she still cares about the freedmen, unsullied, dothrakis and all others that came with her.

 

9 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

I'm not talking about her tiny khalasar, the few who chose to bow down and worship her.  I'm talking about the Dothraki people as a whole.

 

She has her criticims for them because they rape, murder, plunder and enslave and force women to stay confined in Dosh Khaleen but that does not mean she does not find anything likeable about them, like the places they traveled, the loyalty of the bloodriders to their khal or the fondness of horses and such.

 

9 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

Name one leader who came to a huge population and drastically changed their ways (180 degree turn) overnight.

 

I get your point : people don't change overnight but they can follow a set of rules, or at least try.

 

9 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

But this whole 12-year-old thing is a tangent from my original point that Dany limits casualties.

 

She does limit her casualties when she can.When Dany frees the slaves in Astapor, battle is necessary (because Dany is at numeric disadvantage and is taking a huge risk for herself and her people). And yet, Dany’s orders to kill the masters clearly state that they must only kill soldiers and slavers and must avoid harming innocents.

When Dany goes to Yunkai, she only goes to battle against the sellsword companies, not the defenders of the city. She promises that no harm will come to the city if they release their slaves, which shows how Dany tries to achieve her goals with as little bloodshed as possible:

“I have a gift for you as well.” She slammed the chest shut. “Three days. On the morning of the third day, send out your slaves. All of them. Every man, woman, and child shall be given a weapon, and as much food, clothing, coin, and goods as he or she can carry. These they shall be allowed to choose freely from among their masters’ possessions, as payment for their years of servitude. When all the slaves have departed, you will open your gates and allow my Unsullied to enter and search your city, to make certain none remain in bondage. If you do this, Yunkai will not be burned or plundered, and none of your people shall be molested. The Wise Masters will have the peace they desire, and will have proved themselves wise indeed. What say you?” - Daenerys IV ASOS

When making her battle plan against the sellsword companies, she takes into consideration how to protect the lives of her freedmen who are not soldiers:

Dany considered. The slaver host seemed small compared to her own numbers, but the sellswords were ahorse. She’d ridden too long with Dothraki not to have a healthy respect for what mounted warriors could do to foot. The Unsullied could withstand their charge, but my freedmen will be slaughtered. - Daenerys IV ASOS

When she puts her battle plan into action, she gives explicit orders not to kill enemies who surrendered:

“If battle is joined, let Grey Worm show wisdom as well as valor,” Dany told him. “Spare any slave who runs or throws down his weapon. The fewer slain, the more remain to join us after.” - Daenerys IV ASOS

~

“Very well,” Dany said. “Sellsword or slave, spare all those who will pledge me their faith. If enough of the Second Sons will join us, keep the company intact.” - Daenerys IV ASOS

When trying to decide how to take Meereen, Daario suggests that the Unsullied assault the walls under boiling oil, since they feel no pain, throwing away their lives to take the city, but Dany refuses to do this, and considers less violent options like a siege:

“This is false.” Grey Worm did not return the smile. “These ones do not feel burns as men do, yet such oil blinds and kills. The Unsullied do not fear to die, though. Give these ones rams, and we will batter down these gates or die in the attempt.”

“You would die,” said Brown Ben. At Yunkai, when he took command of the Second Sons, he claimed to be the veteran of a hundred battles. “Though I will not say I fought bravely in all of them. There are old sellswords and bold sellswords, but no old bold sellswords.” She saw that it was true.

Dany sighed. “I will not throw away Unsullied lives, Grey Worm. Perhaps we can starve the city out.” - Daenerys V ASOS

And when Dany takes Meereen, she does everything she can to stop the violence of the sack and to punish those in her army who looted, murdered or raped:

She was pleased. Meereen had been sacked savagely, as new-fallen cities always were, but Dany was determined that should end now that the city was hers. She had decreed that murderers were to be hanged, that looters were to lose a hand, and rapists their manhood. Eight killers swung from the walls, and the Unsullied had filled a bushel basket with bloody hands and soft red worms, but Meereen was calm again. But for how long? - Daenerys VI ASOS

All of that makes one thing very clear: Daenerys is not the kind of leader who gives no quarter. She is not the kind of leader who will accept every action to win, she is not the kind of leader who will accept shedding the blood of innocents. Unlike what the fandom seems to think, Daenerys is not ruthless and is not someone who believes that the ends justifies the means. She has very clear limits to what she is willing to do in battle.

 

9 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

And yes, kill every man wearing a tokar but spare those under 12 does = kill every boy 12 and over wearing a tokar.

 

No, it is not because I think the unsullied are capable to differenciate between a man in a tokar and a child wearing a tokar. Don't project that much onto them.

 

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3 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

I'm not denying that she was sold to Drogo and was thus initially treated as property.  Saying that any influence over him that she clearly has does not count because she is "property" is ridiculous.  She had influence over him.  Khals invade and slaughter because that's what they do, but Khal Drogo attacked that village because the attempt on Dany's life convinced Drogo to victimize innocents to sell them as slaves... at Dany's urging.

Well of course the fact that she fell in love with Drogo doesn't change their relationship's beginning.  And of course it doesn't change how the khalasar behaved.  It does change the level of culpability Dany has in the whole event.

Dany spared a small portion of the women from being raped, after they already were raped.  Good for Dany (not sarcasm).  Drogo's khal would not have been there if not for Dany, not at that specific time.  Was Khal Drogo a monster without Dany's influence?  Yes.  Did she make him a kinder man?  Also, yes... but still a monster.  But his quest to purchase that many slaves to buy that many ships was to get the "iron chair" that Drogo never previously cared about until Dany convinced him.

I blame Drogo for Drogo's actions.  Drogo is one of my top villains of AGOT, and Dany isn't even on that list.  But did Dany influence him?  Yes she did.

You can't call 14-year-old Dany a "child" while just arguing that the 12-year-olds she ordered to be slaughtered were not children.

Yes.  Dany's argument for the Iron Throne was about their son because that is the best way to convince him.  We also knew she called herself a queen.  Her argument was for her son, but she wanted it for herself.  I never denied that Drogo is sexist.  He certainly is.  But he's a sexist who respects and is influenced by his wife, unlike most other khals.

Drogo was only interested in the Iron Throne because she made him interested.  I find it odd that you claim the Dothraki aren't savages, and then keep talking about how them changing their nature would be "magical".  And also later claim that Dany eventually will have that "magical" ability when she becomes their leader.

I never said I don't blame her.  I blame Drogo for his own actions.  People are to blame for their own actions.  And I blame Dany for her complicity in it.  And her hypocrisy for later claiming to be the "break of chains" when she clearly was at one point okay with enslaving.

Can you defend this quote then?  So far you haven't.  How was she not (reluctantly) okay with slavery?

"Slaves, Dany thought.  Khal Drogo would drive them downriver to one of the towns on Slaver's Bay.  She wanted to cry, but she told herself she must be strong.  This is war, this is what it looks like, this is the price of the Iron Throne."

Yeah, she wants to cry.  But it is an acceptable price.  Obviously she is against rape, so I give her that.  She considers the murder and enslavement okay, it seems.  If she found Drogo's promise as repulsive as she should have, it would have been nice for her thoughts to somehow demonstrate that..

I never said Dany was pure monster.  Her decision at the end of ASOS was the beginning of her attempt to be a peaceful queen, which she seems to give up on at the end of ADWD as she embraces fire and blood.  This is her full quote.  Not wanting Meereen to fall apart was one reason she stayed behind, but she had practical reasons too (letting her dragons grow so they would be a bigger force of destruction), and of course plot reasons that George Martin wasn't ready for her arrival in Westeros yet.

"But how can I rule seven kingdoms if I cannot rule a single city?  My children need time to heal and learn. My dragons need time to grow and test their wings. And I need the same. I will not let this city go the way of Astapor. I will not let the harpy of Yunkai chain up those I've freed all over again."

I didn't say "mass murder", I said "mass murderer".  What else would you call Daario?  Every time he gloats about how many men he kills, with pleasure, Dany finds him increasingly more attractive.  She's obviously drawn to him.  She obviously has a type.  Daario is a monster.  Dany admits as much:

"He would make a monster of me," she whispered, "a butcher queen." But then she thought of Drogon far away, and the dragons in the pit. There is blood on my hands too, and on my heart. We are not so different, Daario and I. We are both monsters.

I appreciate Dany's self-realizations and her resistance to embrace her inner monster, but this was when she still successfully resisted Daario.  It is a big turning point for Dany when she gives into her lusts... and a bad turning point.

I never called Dany a lunatic.  I don't think she is "mad" and I don't think that is her future storyline.

Great that she can choose her own lover, but why did she choose someone she thinks of as a "monster"?

It most certainly is mockery.  It was an insulting term her "monster" lover made up for him, and she adopted it.  Barristan himself found the name insulting (though he didn't know that Dany also called him that... behind his back).

We'll see.  Neither of us knows what she will do from here.  I think she is done with Meereen, no longer cares about its fate, and is ready to invade Westeros.

This horse has been beaten.  Yes, she was bought.  Their first night together was consensual, but their acts together in their journey across the Dothraki Sea can certainly be considered rape.  I never said they had an admiral love story.  I said Dany had influence over Drogo.  She did.  The fact that he originally bought her is the not the ultimate refutation of that fact.

I'm not talking about her tiny khalasar, the few who chose to bow down and worship her.  I'm talking about the Dothraki people as a whole.

Name one leader who came to a huge population and drastically changed their ways (180 degree turn) overnight.

If 14-year-old Dany (13 when they first got married, but still older than 12) is a child bride (your words), then Dany kills children.

But this whole 12-year-old thing is a tangent from my original point that Dany limits casualties.

And yes, kill every man wearing a tokar but spare those under 12 does = kill every boy 12 and over wearing a tokar.

I’m really unclear about how Dany could have prevented either her husband or Khal Ogo, or Ogo’s son, from attacking MMD’s village.

Dany never advised Drogo to take slaves. She favoured taking back the Iron Throne for Rhaego, but that would be expected of any wife and mother in this world.  The trigger for Drogo’s invasion was Robert’s murder attempt.

If her (forcible) marriage to Drogo makes her guilty of the actions of his khalasar, then presumably every noble woman in the Seven Kingdoms is equally guilty of the deeds of her husband in war. Would we blame Joanna Lannister for Tywin’s deeds, or Minisa Whent for Hoster Tully’s, or Rhaella for Aerys’.  

The fact that she witnessed rape and enslavement there, and tried to prevent rape, and later freed her remaining slaves, and later sets other slaves free is very much a point in her favour, not evidence of “hypocrisy.”

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4 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I’m really unclear about how Dany could have prevented either her husband or Khal Ogo, or Ogo’s son, from attacking MMD’s village.

Dany never advised Drogo to take slaves. She favoured taking back the Iron Throne for Rhaego, but that would be expected of any wife and mother in this world.  The trigger for Drogo’s invasion was Robert’s murder attempt.

If her (forcible) marriage to Drogo makes her guilty of the actions of his khalasar, then presumably every noble woman in the Seven Kingdoms is equally guilty of the deeds of her husband in TWOTFK.

The fact that she witnessed rape and enslavement there, and tried to prevent rape, and later freed her remaining slaves, and later sets other slaves free is very much a point in her favour, not evidence of “hypocrisy.”

I think he expected her to also tell Drogo to free the people from the village. And I'm saying this seriously.

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22 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

I think he expected her to also tell Drogo to free the people from the village. And I'm saying this seriously.

It’s plain she can influence Drogo in small things, like giving Viserys back his horse.  But big decisions of war and peace?  No way.

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On 10/23/2022 at 12:18 PM, StarkTullies said:

That has not been shown:

"Slay the Good Masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who wears a tokar or holds a whip, but harm no child under twelve."

Daenerys ordered the deaths of a lot of 12-year-old boys.  I know the counterargument that "they are slavers and they deserved to die!"  Wearing a tokar is a symbol of being upper class (the same upper class Daenerys was born into), not necessarily of being a slaver (though in Astapor, that may be one and the same... or may not be).  Regardless, the 12-year-olds have no say in the matter.

"Slaves, Dany thought.  Khal Drogo would drive them downriver to one of the towns on Slaver's Bay.  She wanted to cry, but she told herself that she must be strong.  This is war, this is what it looks like, this is the price of the Iron Throne."

Daenerys is "sad" at all the innocents who died and were being enslaved by her "sun and stars" at her own request, but she considers it an acceptable price for a throne she feels entitled too.  Thousands dead, thousands enslaved.  This is not "as few casualties as possible".

What about Mirri Maz Duur's interpretation of the prophecy about "burning cities" and "trampling nations into dust"?  I think her interpretation is more accurate.  Shepherds have no problem slaughtering the sheep of their own "herd".

That said, it is clear that prophecies in this story are not all they seem to be.

Jon let the Free Folk through the Wall to save their lives.  Daenerys plans to lead Dothraki where they don't want to go for the specific purpose of invasion.  There's a difference.

I hate the Free Folk notion of "stealing women" as a marriage proposal, but at least their weddings aren't a "dull affair" if it isn't accompanied by multiple murders.  The Free Folk don't steal, rape, or murder any more than those south of the Wall.  Following only the strong, rather than following an entitled brat born into a royal family, is not a bad thing.

The Free Folk are much better developed than the Dothraki.  Is that because George Martin is biased?  Or is that because we see the Free Folk through Jon's eyes who views them as people, while Daenerys only sees the Dothraki as her "subjects"?

I will be charitable or non-charitable to the dragons depending on how they are used, not based on who rides them.

Most cultures have predictions about the end of the world.  Ghost grass is not a metaphor about the Others, and I don't think any prophecies about ghost grass will convince the Dothraki to unite peacefully to fight against a common foe.  Dany plans to bring the Dothraki to Westeros to fight for the Iron Throne, not to fight the Others.  If Dany helps against the Others, it will be with her dragon(s).

"Tiny" khalasar is the key term.  They were loyal to her because they specifically knew her, and because they saw her walk out of that fire unburnt.  A single person can't and won't change the culture of hundreds of thousands of people overnight.  They will cross the sea for their new "goddess", but they aren't going to stop murdering and raping.  I doubt that Dany will even request that they do.  George Martin doesn't write stories for everything to be neatly tied up in a little bow, and I wouldn't be reading these books if he did.

The order is to put to death soldiers, Good Masters, tokar wearers and overseers.  The elite of Astapor and their enforcers.  Some of them are teenagers, just as we see teenage soldiers and workers in Westeros.

Nobody disputes that teenagers are legitimate targets to their enemies.  No one thinks Jon, Joffrey or Robb (or with the exception of Ned, Dany herself) should be spared on account of age.

Far greater numbers of teens, among the Unsullied, and uncut boys, and the slaves, were saved that day than died among the elite.

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6 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The order is to put to death soldiers, Good Masters, tokar wearers and overseers.  The elite of Astapor and their enforcers.  Some of them are teenagers, just as we see teenage soldiers and workers in Westeros.

Nobody disputes that teenagers are legitimate targets to their enemies.  No one thinks Jon, Joffrey or Robb (or with the exception of Ned, Dany herself) should be spared on account of age.

Far greater numbers of teens, among the Unsullied, and uncut boys, and the slaves, were saved that day than died among the elite.

Honestly, I can't wrap my mind how people take an order explicitly made to protect children and spin it as "Daenerys the child murderer".

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7 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

Honestly, I can't wrap my mind how people take an order explicitly made to protect children and spin it as "Daenerys child murderer".

I think what people were trying to say is that not every person over twelve who wears a Tokar is as guilty as the Masters who crucified the Children. The command 'Harm no child under twelve', could have been interpreted in a variety of ways. It could just mean arrest no child under twelve, or it could mean that children under twelve were to be arrested but not harmed, or it could mean that everyone wearing a tokar over 12 could be harmed. 'Harmed' also has a lot of different meanings. 

Daenerys specifies to slay every man who wears a tokar as well. So potentially this would exclude women wearing tokars. It depends if the Soldiers viewed everyone over 12 as a man, and if man meant males or just people in general.

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1 minute ago, Oana_Mika said:

Honestly, I can't wrap my mind how people take an order explicitly made to protect children and spin it as "Daenerys child murderer".

If one group of teens is actively participating in the murder, torture, castration etc of another group of teens who have been kidnapped, the morally correct thing to do is to prevent them by any means, including lethal violence..

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2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think what people were trying to say is that not every person over twelve who wears a Tokar is as guilty as the Masters who crucified the Children. The command 'Harm no child under twelve', could have been interpreted in a variety of ways. It could just mean arrest no child under twelve, or it could mean that children under twelve were to be arrested but not harmed, or it could mean that everyone wearing a tokar over 12 could be harmed. 'Harmed' also has a lot of different meanings. 

I take it as simply "harm no child" since no one can guess correctly their age. So the unsullied were simply ordered to spare children.

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1 minute ago, Oana_Mika said:

I take it as simply "harm no chil" since no one can guess correctly their age. So the unsullied were simply ordered to spare children.

Certainly Daenerys would not want children killed, I don't think. If any children died it would be because her words were not interpreted as she meant them.

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10 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Certainly Daenerys would not want children killed, I don't think.

Given how Martin wrote her, I don't think she would either.

 

What good is peace if it must be purchased with the blood of little children? - A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys IV

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