How culpable is Sansa in her family's downfall?

[Rondo]

Sansa is largely responsible for the downfall of the Starks.  The wrong word at the wrong time can do more damage than a sword blade.  Ned Stark had already set up an escape plan from the city and back to their home in the wastelands of the north.  Sansa, in fit of selfishness, revealed her father's plans to Cersei.  Sansa longed to remain with Joffrey and loved the boy. This was in the spirit of selfishness.  If Ned had made it to the north then Robb would not have rebelled because Ned would be free.  Roose would not have a chance to plot.  Ned might have offered guidance to his bastard at the wall and helped him become a competent commander.  This is a pivotal moment for the Starks.  Cersei used what she was told to upset Ned's plans.  

This is my opinion.  Do you agree that Sansa is largely responsible for the status of the Starks?  

 

[Craving Peaches]

Not very culpable at all because she had no mens rea.

She had no intention of causing her family's downfall.

Actus reus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Not very, for making a guillible but still devoid of any bad intention mistake, and having no clue about what was going on and on Cersei and Joffrey's natures and conflict with her father at the time.

[Nevets]

Ned was staying in Kings Landing.  Cersei was already plotting against him, so he was a goner in any event.  Her going to Cersei probably did prevent her and Arya's escape, although since the guards had a letter for Stannis, they would likely have gotten stuck on Dragonstone.

There would have been no attempt to make Ned confess.  Whether he would have been executed or sent to the Wall is an open question.

In any event, Sansa was missing important information and had no idea how far things had deteriorated.  Also, she was 11 and naive.  She is older and wiser now, and a quick learner.  She's much slower to trust than she used to be.

And if Cersei actually thinks Sansa's disclosure was instrumental in her takeover than she is misremembering and/or being her own spin doctor.  Which doesn't surprise me.

[kissdbyfire]

Sansa is not culpable at all for all the very obvious reasons that I won’t bother repeating for the 234,897th time. 

[Quoth the raven,]

Is Sansa selfish?  Yes.  Is Sansa lacking in the brains department?  Yes.  Did she betray her father to Cersei?  Yes.  Is Sansa responsible for the Starks losing their dad, mom, lands, and home?  Of Ned's death, probably a little.  They could have made it to Winterfell if she had not squealed.  It's really Cat and the older boys who got the family into the destitute situation they are in.  Cat and Robb were left in charge.  The disaster at the wall was all Jon's fault.  Arya made her own choice to kill.  Sansa is at the mercy of the Lannisters and her own shortcomings. 

[BlackLightning]

4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Actus reus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea.

Tell that to towing companies and the parking enforcement

 

@Rondo you're ignoring the fact that Ned was doomed the moment he told Cersei and refused Renly's help

As @Nevets pointed out, the girls would've ended up being hostages of Stannis Baratheon on Dragonstone....and there would have been no chance for them to escape given that Dragonstone is an island.

Granted, if Stannis had Sansa and Arya, then he would have been in a much more powerful bargaining position (at least as far as Robb is concerned) in both A Clash of Kings and A Storm of Swords. It doesn't change the story that much (getting Sansa and Arya back was never Robb's priority, especially not with Bran and Rickon still alive)...but if he could've kept his hands off of them and their king's blood long enough, he would've been able to more or less steamroll the Boltons.

It makes for a faster story, I'm not even going to lie.

[Thandros]

It depends on how much the information really encouraged Cersei to move up her plans by which I think the answer is a couple of hours at most if that. The Stark departure can't have been too well hidden from Lannister watchers and it's likely Cersei was going to move quickly after Robert's death to purge the Starks from King's Landing anyway so it probably wouldn't have made a difference at all if Sansa hadn't spilled the beans to Cersei. She simply ensured that the Lannisters would have one hostage locked away before the fighting rather than after it.

I think the entire episode says a lot more about Sansa's character and it might come back to bite her if control over the north between the Starks comes under some form of contention  than having had any serious impact on the events. Ned Stark had already doomed the Starks in King's Landing by giving Cersei an offer of mercy which she decided to turn against him while Robb's campaign seems barely affect by the Lannisters holding his sister hostage. Only way Arya and Sansa get out of King's Landing together is if Ned moves their departure up 12 hours and they leave on their boat in the middle of the night. The honestly most impactful result may even be Cersei's attempt to lure out Arya using the fake Stark guards on the Braavosi ship they were planing to sail on which comes close to tricking Arya but she sees through it quickly enough to make no difference.

[Craving Peaches]

3 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Tell that to towing companies and the parking enforcement

Well, it doesn't really apply for all crimes anyway. It sounds nice to say though.

[frenin]

The only responsibles for the Starks' downfall are Jaime and Littlefinger.

Jaime for trying to kill an infant to save his own ass and Petyr for everything.

[the trees have eyes]

Terrible argument.  Always has been, always will be.  Baffling that it still gets raised.

Nothing to see here people, move on...

[Wm Portnoy]

14 hours ago, Rondo said:

Sansa is largely responsible for the downfall of the Starks.  The wrong word at the wrong time can do more damage than a sword blade.  Ned Stark had already set up an escape plan from the city and back to their home in the wastelands of the north.  Sansa, in fit of selfishness, revealed her father's plans to Cersei.  Sansa longed to remain with Joffrey and loved the boy. This was in the spirit of selfishness.  If Ned had made it to the north then Robb would not have rebelled because Ned would be free.  Roose would not have a chance to plot.  Ned might have offered guidance to his bastard at the wall and helped him become a competent commander.  This is a pivotal moment for the Starks.  Cersei used what she was told to upset Ned's plans.  

This is my opinion.  Do you agree that Sansa is largely responsible for the status of the Starks?  

 

Not largely just minimally.  The Starks are not the smartest of families and Sansa is below the mean within that group.  She is basically an innocent, ignorant, poorly-educated girl who has never seen anything outside of the north.  The north is very primitive.  She makes a lot of mistakes because she is ignorant and immature. 

[Ring3r]

Not at all.  Sansa was threatened and manipulated by multiple extremely powerful people and was too young/naive to know how anything worked in politics, because she'd been raised in a loving family environment.

Catelyn, who should have known better, is the one who made multiple unforced-errors that directly resulted in tragedy for her family.  She knows it, too.  Not that she's responsible for the terrible things people did to her family...she isn't, they chose to do those things.  But she screwed up HARD, trusting Littlefinger, trusting her whack-job sister, trusting the Freys enough to betroth her son to them, idiotically seizing Tyrion. Her entire role in the first novel, apart from urging Ned not to leave, was making mistake after mistake.  She made more than Ned.

[Arthur Peres]

She hold part of the blame, but Ned and Catelyn being the biggest responsables.

Sansa already saw Joffrey threat her younger sister with a real sword. She already saw Cersei demand her Wolf's head. She was already told that her father and his men were ambushed in the streets of KL, and that Jory, someone she knew personally was slain.

She still went and use Cersei as a friendly sholder to cry upon and tell on her own father.

If she and Arya were safe in White Harbor, a lot would change.

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

Sansa is a country girl who knows nothing.  She knew nothing of politics and she was smitten with Joffrey and wanted to bear his children.  So an ignorant Sansa with a double crush on Joffrey is trouble waiting to happen.  While she may not be the one at fault, the incident does reveal her character and it is not good. 

[the trees have eyes]

On 10/19/2022 at 1:35 AM, Arthur Peres said:

She hold part of the blame, but Ned and Catelyn being the biggest responsables.

Sansa already saw Joffrey threat her younger sister with a real sword. She already saw Cersei demand her Wolf's head. She was already told that her father and his men were ambushed in the streets of KL, and that Jory, someone she knew personally was slain.

She still went and use Cersei as a friendly sholder to cry upon and tell on her own father.

If she and Arya were safe in White Harbor, a lot would change.

Remember she intended to go to Robert and get him to order Ned to let her marry Joffrey.  But she was scared of loud, drunk, boorish Robert so went to Cersei as more approachable.  Naïve?  Sure.  Willing to ignore the flaws in Joffrey's character out of puppy love and to ignore the flaws in Cersei's because most of the time Cersei acted like her idea of a proper Queen and showed her a kind face?  Absolutely.

Even an adult overcome with love and seeing their hopes and dreams dashed could be foolish and display poor judgment but she's a 12 year-old child not an adult and we should always bear that in mind.

Not a lot would change.  Ned would still send his best guards with Beric, warn Cersei to flee, ignore Renly's offer of assistance and advice to strike first and trust LF to bring the Goldcloaks in on his side.  Ned would still be captured, Robert murdered and the Lannisters seize power.  Robb would still raise his banners and come south to rescue Ned who would still be executed by a spiteful Joffrey, just without declaring his guilt in an effort to save his daughters.  TWot5K would still rage and Robb be murdered at The Red Wedding.  If Sansa and Arya had returned north to WF either they would have ended as Theon's prisoners and Sansa as Theon's wife as he fantasized before ultimately becoming Ramsay's bride; or they would have hidden in the crypts and be on the run as Bran and Rickon are.  Stannis would still look to make Jon king in the North Lord of Winterfell and it's likely Robb, still believing Sansa and Arya dead or captive, would make Jon his heir.

GRRM is taking House Stark down: in KL, at WF and at The Twins.  Sansa's crush on Joffrey (the result of a betrothal arranged by the King and her parents) is not to blame.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

I am more angry for the death of the butcher's son.  I blame Sansa for that. 

[the trees have eyes]

30 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

I am more angry for the death of the butcher's son.  I blame Sansa for that. 

Not Joffrey for lying about being attacked?  Or Cersei for wanting Mycah killed for "his part" in injuring Joffrey?  Or The Hound for actually butchering him while he was running away?

But Sansa for saying "I don't remember"?

If she tells the truth she completes Joffrey's humiliation, if she lies she condemns Mycah: so she does neither.

As with the premise of this thread it's true Sansa is involved in a minor way but the real blame obviously lies with others.

 

[Moiraine Sedai]

Oh brother. Sansa gets more hate because of gender.  She doesn’t have the same agency compared to boys but gets more of the blame. She is self centered in nature but nicer overall when you consider who are around her.  She’s lived among the wolves and now with vipers. She could be worse. 

[Springwatch]

6 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

I am more angry for the death of the butcher's son.  I blame Sansa for that. 

Mycah was miles away and dead before she even spoke. Honestly, young Sansa hasn't done much wrong really.