Bobby B. VIII Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 I think that at the very worst, Sansa's responsibility for the Starks downfall is minimal, Catelyn's poor choices, Ned's inflexible honor, and Joffrey's lust for blood are much heavier hitters than Sansa naivety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 The word 'culpable' implies guilt on Sansa's part. But she can't really be guilty unless she knew what her actions would cause. I think it's safe to say that she had no idea that something so awful would result from her actions, or she never would have done them. If we are going to, for the sake of argument, consider Sansa's actions a 'crime' (though I really doubt they would be classed as such), the closest thing I have found so far is the English Common Law Crime of 'Petty Treason', from the Treason Act 1351. Though even with this there are a number of issues. It seems to have been used for when people murdered someone they were supposed to be subordinate to (e.g. a wife to husband), but saying Sansa was responsible for Ned's murder is really stretching it in my view, especially since she had no intention to do so and Joffrey's act of ordering Ned beheaded could consititute a novus actus interveniens. Saying that she murdered Ned through recklessness is also pushing it really, given that she clearly did care whether he lived or died because she pleaded with Joffrey to spare him. Sansa's complete lack of any intention, or even any recklessness really, is a huge obstacle to claiming she has any sort of culpability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quoth the raven, Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 Sansa was old enough to know better but too in love with Prince Joffrey to care. There is some culpability. Though it is the parents and the older brothers who are more culpable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 15 minutes ago, Quoth the raven, said: There is some culpability. Why? She had no intention of causing harm to her family, not was she really being reckless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the trees have eyes Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 14 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said: Sansa was old enough to know better but too in love with Prince Joffrey to care. There is some culpability. Though it is the parents and the older brothers who are more culpable. Old enough to know better about what? She has no idea about the paternity of Cersei's children or that her father has revealed to Cersei that he knows, making the whole situation incredibly dangerous. We have her pov where her thoughts reveal that she had no clue what was going on until Jeyne Poole is shoved into her room screaming "they're killing everyone". Her thoughts also reveal what she intends when she approaches Cersei, namely to be allowed to marry Joffrey, and that she feels guilty about disobeying her father (for once) but that's it: her father and the King are best buddies, not mortal enemies, so what possible consequences could she foresee? She's a naïve, sheltered 12 year-old who thinks she's living in one of the romantic songs she likes so much. She does not know better but learns the hard way in brutal fashion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 On 10/18/2022 at 7:59 PM, Ring3r said: Her entire role in the first novel, apart from urging Ned not to leave, was making mistake after mistake. Cat urged Ned to accept the Handship after receiving Lysa's letter in the books. Anyway, I generally don't blame 11 year old girls for acting like 11 year olds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 1 hour ago, DMC said: Anyway, I generally don't blame 11 year old girls for acting like 11 year olds. Blame like point and laugh? Its not that Sansa wants to sink the world, agreed. I mean, do we blame Godzilla taking a morning stroll down Tokyo? Hes just living his life. Its not like he chooses to not breath oxygen, its just who he is that makes him exhale hydrogen bombs. 1 hour ago, DMC said: Cat urged Ned to accept the Handship after receiving Lysa's letter in the books. Lysas letter was an eye opener. However Catelyn already smacked her husband on the ear when he didnt immediately kiss Roberts feet when he offered Sansa a crown. Ned was all convinced to not be hand and instead stay shivering up north, building snowmen instead of legislation. But he didnt expect Sansa. No one does. Why did Ned go south? Why did the Lady fiasco happen? How did Ned find out who Joffreys biological father was? How did Cersei learn his plans? What was the one bargining chip Robb didnt have in the war? Why is Tyrell still in the war? What is LF plotting? How did Joffrey die? What about her aunt? Its not Sansas fault that shes culpable for wanton destruction, its just who she is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said: Its not that Sansa wants to sink the world, agreed. I mean, do we blame Godzilla taking a morning stroll down Tokyo? Hes just living his life. Its not like he chooses to not breath oxygen, its just who he is that makes him exhale hydrogen bombs. Yes because an 11 year old begging not to be sent home is totally the same as Godzilla destroying a city. 2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said: Lysas letter was an eye opener. However Catelyn already smacked her husband on the ear when he didnt immediately kiss Roberts feet when he offered Sansa a crown. That's a bit of an exaggeration - she was more worried Robert would take a refusal as an insult and angry Ned couldn't see it as an opportunity for Sansa - but yes. I was more trying to clarify the difference between the books and the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 12 minutes ago, DMC said: Yes because an 11 year old begging not to be sent home is totally the same as Godzilla destroying a city. Yea, they hardly know what theyre doing. Godizlla may be 11 million years old but hes a dumb animal like an 11 year old child. 13 minutes ago, DMC said: That's a bit of an exaggeration - she was more worried Robert would take a refusal as an insult and angry Ned couldn't see it as an opportunity for Sansa - but yes. I was more trying to clarify the difference between the books and the show. I didnt meant to imply that Sansas ascension was met with good news, like most of her life it revolves around sorrow, but the cards are played for Sansa. She has very little free will in asoiaf while grave politics continues to crash all around her Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said: Yea, they hardly know what theyre doing. Godizlla may be 11 million years old but hes a dumb animal like an 11 year old child. It's still an absurd comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 7 minutes ago, DMC said: It's still an absurd comparison. It was meant to be funnier then accurate. I dont actually know much about Godzilla. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the trees have eyes Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 19 hours ago, DMC said: It's still an absurd comparison. Beyond absurd. 19 hours ago, Hugorfonics said: Its not Sansas fault that shes culpable for wanton destruction, its just who she is You know culpable means being at fault, right? It's literally what it means. If people fight over using her for her claim they are culpable for what ensues not her. She's a pawn, most of the time unwitting, all of the time a powerless captive looking for a way out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Peres Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 On 10/21/2022 at 8:59 AM, the trees have eyes said: Old enough to know better about what? She has no idea about the paternity of Cersei's children or that her father has revealed to Cersei that he knows, making the whole situation incredibly dangerous. If the Lannisters had keep their masks I would agree with you. It was not the case. Sansa already witness Joffrey threat Arya with a sword, Cersei calling for Lady execution, she knows that Ned was attacked on the streets and wounded and that Jory was killed. Sansa ignored everything around her, and acted too self-centered... Sansa blindness is inexcusable. She does not carry the lion share of the blame that some put on her. But she is responsible for part of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springwatch Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 6 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: Sansa ignored everything around her, and acted too self-centered... Sansa blindness is inexcusable. She does not carry the lion share of the blame that some put on her. But she is responsible for part of it. Missing logic here. 'Blindness' does not automatically make her a factor in her family's downfall. And she isn't, because it's impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 4 hours ago, the trees have eyes said: Beyond absurd. Shes an absurd character. 4 hours ago, the trees have eyes said: You know culpable means being at fault, right? It's literally what it means. Yes. If Sansa didn't exist the world would be less bloody 4 hours ago, the trees have eyes said: If people fight over using her for her claim they are culpable for what ensues not her. She's a pawn, most of the time unwitting, all of the time a powerless captive looking for a way out. Sure. She's not intentionally culpable for the misery of Westeros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H Wadsworth Longfellow Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 Ned, Robb, and Catelyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GMantis Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 Not at all. Ned had already revealed to Cersei that he knew about the incest, so she knew that she could not allow him to take over the regency. Ned had already ordered Littlefinger to deliver him the Gold Cloaks, so that Littlefinger betrayed and delivered the Gold Cloaks to Cersei, meaning that she would win any confrontation with Ned. And since Ned could never allow Joffrey to ascend the throne, the confrontation was inevitable. Sansa can't even be blamed for allowing herself to be captured (which later led to Ned's confession and his execution), since if she hadn't gone to Cersei she'd be in the Tower of the Hand and captured there like Jeyne Poole was. It's true that if Sansa hadn't gone to Cersei Arya had a small chance of escaping by boat. Then again, without being forewarned by the attempt to seize her, she might have been captured on returning to the Tower. On 10/18/2022 at 5:11 AM, Quoth the raven, said: Did she betray her father to Cersei? Yes. Betrayal is a conscious act, you can't betray someone accidentally. Sansa had no idea that she could endanger her father, so she's not guilty of betrayal. On 10/18/2022 at 8:34 AM, Thandros said: It depends on how much the information really encouraged Cersei to move up her plans by which I think the answer is a couple of hours at most if that. The Stark departure can't have been too well hidden from Lannister watchers and it's likely Cersei was going to move quickly after Robert's death to purge the Starks from King's Landing anyway so it probably wouldn't have made a difference at all if Sansa hadn't spilled the beans to Cersei. She simply ensured that the Lannisters would have one hostage locked away before the fighting rather than after it. Since Cersei struck as soon as Robert died (according to Ned the obvious thing to do), Sansa's information was irrelevant in the timeline of events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the trees have eyes Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said: If Sansa didn't exist the world would be less bloody Sure. She's not intentionally culpable for the misery of Westeros You're a strange one. She isn't culpable for the misery in Westeros because she didn't cause any of it. If she didn't exist the Houses would be using other pawns or hostages in their contests and the world would be just as bloody. She was born so she's culpable for people trying to take advantage of her as a hostage? Her brothers were murdered so she's culpable for people trying to use her for her claim? That's some horrible logic and misdirected blame there. 4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said: Shes an absurd character. In what way? She's an 11/12 year old with a crush on a handsome but unpleasant boy several years older than her and she overlooks his flaws due to inexperience, naivety and of how much she is enchanted by the prospect of her dreams and romantic songs becoming real. Seems pretty realistic to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the trees have eyes Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 6 hours ago, Arthur Peres said: Sansa ignored everything around her, and acted too self-centered... Sansa blindness is inexcusable. She does not carry the lion share of the blame that some put on her. But she is responsible for part of it. She's eleven Of course she is self-centred but she is a goody two-shoes whose one act of naughtiness is to go against her father's instruction and prevail upon the Queen (in lieu of The King) to allow her to marry Joffrey. She can't possibly know open warfare is about to break out or that Cersei is planning to murder Robert and hold her hostage. Robert isn't the sharpest tool in the box but he doesn't see any of this coming. Why should an 11 year old be held to a higher standard of political understanding? 6 hours ago, Arthur Peres said: Sansa already witness Joffrey threat Arya with a sword, Cersei calling for Lady execution, she knows that Ned was attacked on the streets and wounded and that Jory was killed. And she knows that Robert is King and Ned is his hand. That's an important counterpoint to the Stark-Lannister feuding and should offer safety and stability. After all she is marrying into the Royal family not the Lannisters and Jaime fled after attacking her father. I doubt she sees her mother as a Tully rather than a Stark: should she see the Queen as a Lannister rather than a representative of the King? She can't possibly know Cersei is working to overthrow Robert and her father. There's no doubt that Sansa is written far less sympathetically than Arya in AGOT and the scales only fall from her eyes at the end but the issue isn't whether she is likeable or perceptive, it's that she's a naïve, sheltered, love-struck child and her understanding and awareness is governed by that. I mean, this is her after her father sends Beric rather than Loras after Gregor Clegane: A Game of Thrones - Sansa III Her father's decision still bewildered her. When the Knight of Flowers had spoken up, she'd been sure she was about to see one of Old Nan's stories come to life. Ser Gregor was the monster and Ser Loras the true hero who would slay him. He even looked a true hero, so slim and beautiful, with golden roses around his slender waist and his rich brown hair tumbling down into his eyes. And then Father had refused him! It had upset her more than she could tell. She had said as much to Septa Mordane as they descended the stairs from the gallery, but the septa had only told her it was not her place to question her lord father's decisions. That was when Lord Baelish had said, "Oh, I don't know, Septa. Some of her lord father's decisions could do with a bit of questioning. The young lady is as wise as she is lovely." He made a sweeping bow to Sansa, so deep she was not quite sure if she was being complimented or mocked. Septa Mordane had been very upset to realize that Lord Baelish had overheard them. "The girl was just talking, my lord," she'd said. "Foolish chatter. She meant nothing by the comment." Lord Baelish stroked his little pointed beard and said, "Nothing? Tell me, child, why would you have sent Ser Loras?" Sansa had no choice but to explain about heroes and monsters. The king's councillor smiled. "Well, those are not the reasons I'd have given, but …" He had touched her cheek, his thumb lightly tracing the line of a cheekbone. "Life is not a song, sweetling. You may learn that one day to your sorrow." This is eleven year-old Sansa. It's how she sees the world and how she thinks about it. She doesn't just idly think this stuff to herself, she says it out loud to privy councillors. Roll your eyes or whatever you want but whether you think she should know better or not she doesn't. Not yet..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 7 hours ago, Arthur Peres said: Sansa ignored everything around her, and acted too self-centered... Sansa blindness is inexcusable. She does not carry the lion share of the blame that some put on her. But she is responsible for part of it. What the hell is it w/ people holding Sansa (and Arya, Dany, Bran, etc) to an even higher standard of understanding of the situation around them than they do the adults? WTAF. Sansa is a child, she’s 11 at the start of the story, and she’s had a very sheltered existence until the journey to KL. And from the moment she learned she was to marry Joffrey, she thinks she’s literally living her fairy tale fantasy, it’s all come true. When shit hits the fan, she starts to see Joffrey may not be Prince Charming. To say that her blindness is ‘inexcusable’ is just absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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