Moiraine Sedai Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 Who was responsible for Micah’s violent ending? It isn’t just Sandor. All of them are. Micah too. a) Joffrey. Bad conduct for a prince. He’s not honest. He also has a cruel streak. b) Sansa covered for Joffrey. c) Sandor is the adult but he was a sworn protector of his prince. Micah attacked his protectee. He was lied to. The only excuse (but valid): he was ordered. d) Arya should have better explained what happened. Moreover, she should obey the social boundaries between her class and the boy’s. e). Micah made a bad call to befriend Arya. It was too dangerous to hang out with the governing class. He was too comfortable around Arya. He broke social boundaries. Agree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canon Claude Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 Blaming Arya and Micah for what is basically children playing together… that’s some weird victim blaming. That’d be like blaming Ramsay’s victims for not outrunning the hounds chasing after them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denam_Pavel Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 The Hound was not ordered to kill Micah, nor is he obligated to follow the orders of 13 year old over the King's or the Hand's even if he did. Sandor just decided that's what his patrons wanted, correctly, but he still made the actual decision himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sleeper Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 The Hound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaenara Belarys Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 2 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said: Agree? No. I don't need to explain why, the text does it for me. 2 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said: e). Micah made a bad call to befriend Arya. It was too dangerous to hang out with the governing class. He was too comfortable around Arya. He broke social boundaries. This sounds like the people who blame the girls who get r***d as dressing too provocatively and enticing the douche who did it. Micah is not at fault for getting ridden down and killed, and neither is Arya. I do appreciate that these things can be a bit confusing for your group, but it's Sandor who is to blame, and probably Cersei IIRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 Micah and Arya have are not to blame, at all. The mere suggestion is utterly ludicrous imo. The fact that he’s a commoner and she’s the daughter of a lord doesn’t make them guilty of anything, and the notion is classist and frankly disgusting. Cersei played a part, as she does in most evil things happening around/near her. Joffrey is guilty of being a nasty little shit and a psycho in the making, so he isn’t entirely innocent. But the lion’s share of the blame goes to the Hound b/c he wasn’t ordered to kill Micah, and even if he had been, he’s an adult with free will who made the choice to kill a child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 The Hound and Whoever ordered him to do it (if applicable). Blaming Arya is silly. Nobles and commoners associating is not a crime. Blaming Mycah himself is the stupidest thing though. He didn't even look at Joffrey wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quoth the raven, Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 7 hours ago, The Sleeper said: The Hound. Hound killed the lad but Sansa lied. So Hound, Joffrey, and Sansa are responsible for the tragic death of Micah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 10 minutes ago, Quoth the raven, said: Sansa Mycah was dead before Sansa said anything. There is no way to hold Sansa responsible for his death, no matter how much you hate her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted October 20, 2022 Share Posted October 20, 2022 44 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: Mycah was dead before Sansa said anything. There is no way to hold Sansa responsible for his death, no matter how much you hate her. Stark haters are gonna hate, facts/the text be damned. I find it quite funny, actually. It’s like some would rather come across as having poor reading comprehension than concede the point that maybe, just maybe, a Stark isn’t guilty of something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongRider Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 6 hours ago, kissdbyfire said: But the lion’s share of the blame goes to the Hound b/c he wasn’t ordered to kill Micah, and even if he had been, he’s an adult with free will who made the choice to kill a child GRRM does make it ambiguous to determine if the Hound was ordered. However, did he have the free will to have chosen differently as Joff’s body guard? I don’t know. Here is the text from Storm. Quote "I heard it from the royal lips. It's not my place to question princes." Clegane jerked his hands toward Arya. "This one's own sister told the same tale when she stood before your precious Robert." “It’s not my place to question princes.” The Hound has lower status than Joffrey, even though he is the adult. Nevertheless, he is still the one responsible for Mycah’s death. Mycah’s real ‘crime’ was seeing Joffery humiliated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 18 minutes ago, LongRider said: GRRM does make it ambiguous to determine if the Hound was ordered. However, did he have the free will to have chosen differently as Joff’s body guard? I don’t know. Here is the text from Storm. “It’s not my place to question princes.” The Hound has lower status than Joffrey, even though he is the adult. Nevertheless, he is still the one responsible for Mycah’s death. Mycah’s real ‘crime’ was seeing Joffery humiliated. I do think he has free will, yes. He’s certainly not supposed to go against the status quo, but going against it is how things change. Defiance, standing up for what’s right, regardless the cost. He’s known all along that Joffrey, Cersei, etc are nasty. And the line ‘it’s not my place to question princes’, while true, isn’t an excuse. Could it have cost him his life? Sure, but it is still a choice imo. I love the character, btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 Sandor knows what Joffrey and Cersei are (and if he didn't by now he should, but he does), but in that instance he didn't stop to think, maybe didn't want to think. He was told a story of a bigger kid bullying a littler kid (Joffrey is older but smaller) and his mind went to a young Sandor being bullied by young Gregor and he saw red and took pleasure in acting out his revenge fantasy. When Arya speaks to what happen he comes to understand and believe it because it rings so true, he killed the victim for the bully. Sandor did wrong and he knows it, and it bothers him greatly, Arya constantly at him about this aggravates him and his drinking is about coping with not just this but all the ills he's done. His problem was his anger and that he's gone so far down this dark path that the world of hypocrites demands that he sees no other way. What he needs is forgiveness and a second chance to start anew, to surround himself with people who are not at all hypocritical, who absolutely believe what they say and act true to it, and some quiet self reflection time to quell his anger. Hopefully he can find such things and he can re-emerge the hero he was always meant to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 Its simply incorrect to blame Mycha. He had no choice in anything. When Arya asked if he wanted to play Im not sure no was an acceptable answer. She is the noblest of the noble, he kinda has to play. Arya says shes to blame however her father told her thats silly (which it kinda is) and that the whole blame is Cersei (which is also silly) 1. Sandor. He rode after him while he was running and chopped him in half and laughed, I think he gets most the blame. 2. Joffrey. He did cause everything, crazy kid. 3. Robert. He knows his son, he knows its all his fault yet at court he didnt blame Joffrey and let the chips fall as they were because he was a useless king like that. 4. Ned. He knows the truth yet stood aside and let Mycha get murdered. (He also personally killed Lady) 5. Arya. Its unfair to put the death of a friend on a childs shoulders. But through cause and effect, Arya and her needle killed Mycha. 6. Sansa. She did know the truth, as she told her dad the real story, however when court came days later the alcoholic and traumatizing experience of this preteen probably got discombobulated with the facts and her feelings, thusly she says Idk, or I dont remember, which I think is honest. Disappointing but honest (I wish I could blame Cersei, but I just cant. I mean, its all that stupid Targaryen rule about chopping off Dunks foot. Blame the game, not the players. (although Ned and Robert were in position to change the rules of the game so....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 On 10/20/2022 at 9:49 AM, Moiraine Sedai said: Who was responsible for Micah’s violent ending? It isn’t just Sandor. All of them are. Micah too. a) Joffrey. Bad conduct for a prince. He’s not honest. He also has a cruel streak. b) Sansa covered for Joffrey. c) Sandor is the adult but he was a sworn protector of his prince. Micah attacked his protectee. He was lied to. The only excuse (but valid): he was ordered. d) Arya should have better explained what happened. Moreover, she should obey the social boundaries between her class and the boy’s. e). Micah made a bad call to befriend Arya. It was too dangerous to hang out with the governing class. He was too comfortable around Arya. He broke social boundaries. Agree? The Hound killed him. He's responsible. We can assume that Cersei ordered Micah's death because she didn't want any witnesses to what happened, but that's about it. We can stretch out the tertiary elements forever: Ned, because he brought Arya south to begin with Cat, because she didn't raise Arya to be a proper lady Cersei, because she raised Joffrey spoiled rotten Brandon, because he was supposed to marry Cat Aerys, because he prompted the civil war that led to Brandon's death Aegon, because he conquered the 7K . . . But if Joffrey and Sansa hadn't run into Micah and Arya on their little afternoon date, Sansa would likely be dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aejohn the Conqueroo Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 Children playing together is pretty shocking to our modern sensibilities but this sort of thing used to happen in the real world all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Ella Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 The Hound. He murdered an innocent and defenceless child. There's no excuse for that. Sandor's father for not teaching his sons how to behave. Cersei for not teaching Joffrey how to behave. Robert for not teaching Joffrey how to behave and for allowing crimes against smallfolk to go unpunished in his kingdom. Tywin for not teaching Cersei how to behave and for allowing his nobles to murder smallfolk with impunity. I don't blame the children for acting in a way that they've been taught is OK. Children don't know any better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 9 hours ago, John Suburbs said: Aegon, because he conquered the 7K . . . Never forget. All problems in the story can be traced back to him. He should have left well enough alone and kept out of other people's business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rondo Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 11 hours ago, Hugorfonics said: Its simply incorrect to blame Mycha. He had no choice in anything. When Arya asked if he wanted to play Im not sure no was an acceptable answer. She is the noblest of the noble, he kinda has to play. Arya says shes to blame however her father told her thats silly (which it kinda is) and that the whole blame is Cersei (which is also silly) 1. Sandor. He rode after him while he was running and chopped him in half and laughed, I think he gets most the blame. 2. Joffrey. He did cause everything, crazy kid. 3. Robert. He knows his son, he knows its all his fault yet at court he didnt blame Joffrey and let the chips fall as they were because he was a useless king like that. 4. Ned. He knows the truth yet stood aside and let Mycha get murdered. (He also personally killed Lady) 5. Arya. Its unfair to put the death of a friend on a childs shoulders. But through cause and effect, Arya and her needle killed Mycha. 6. Sansa. She did know the truth, as she told her dad the real story, however when court came days later the alcoholic and traumatizing experience of this preteen probably got discombobulated with the facts and her feelings, thusly she says Idk, or I dont remember, which I think is honest. Disappointing but honest (I wish I could blame Cersei, but I just cant. I mean, its all that stupid Targaryen rule about chopping off Dunks foot. Blame the game, not the players. (although Ned and Robert were in position to change the rules of the game so....) I almost gave you a "like". It was close. Blame the game and not the player is good but not 100% correct. And your lowly dig at my favorite Targaryen family costs you a "like." But let us move on to the problem. Sansa has the IQ of a raisin but she chose deliberately to side with Joffrey. By game do you mean the murdered kid was caught between the power play of the Starks and the Lannisters? That is right. I blame the families. Starks, Lannisters, and Robert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.