Jump to content

Who really killed Micah?


Moiraine Sedai

Recommended Posts

On 10/20/2022 at 9:49 AM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Who was responsible for Micah’s violent ending?  It isn’t just Sandor.

All of them are. Micah too.  
 

a)  Joffrey. Bad conduct for a prince. He’s not honest. He also has a cruel streak.

b) Sansa covered for Joffrey. 
 

c) Sandor is the adult but he was a sworn protector of his prince. Micah attacked his protectee.  He was lied to. The only excuse (but valid): he was ordered. 

d) Arya should have better explained what happened. Moreover, she should obey the social boundaries between her class and the boy’s. 

e). Micah made a bad call to befriend Arya. It was too dangerous to hang out with the governing class. He was too comfortable around Arya. He broke social boundaries. 

Agree?  
 

A to D.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Rondo said:

I almost gave you a "like".  It was close.  

Blame the game and not the player is good but not 100% correct.  And your lowly dig at my favorite Targaryen family costs you a "like."  But let us move on to the problem.  Sansa has the IQ of a raisin but she chose deliberately to side with Joffrey.   

By game do you mean the murdered kid was caught between the power play of the Starks and the Lannisters?  That is right.  I blame the families.  Starks, Lannisters, and Robert.  

Nah, it’s all Jon’s fault, everything, all of it. :rofl:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/20/2022 at 7:19 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

d) Arya should have better explained what happened. Moreover, she should obey the social boundaries between her class and the boy’s. 

e). Micah made a bad call to befriend Arya. It was too dangerous to hang out with the governing class. He was too comfortable around Arya. He broke social boundaries. 

If it lets you sleep better at night...

Gosh you guys have a serious obsession with her. The rest of the Starks is simple plain ol irrational hatred, but ain't this something. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Rondo said "I almost gave you a "like".  It was close."

Hey Kiss, is this why you ran away crying because Rondo almost gave you a like?  :lol:

Narrator voice: "Now ends another exciting episode of The Edge of Like.  Stay tuned for next week's episode of Who Killed Grey Wolf?  Robb or Sansa?  With special guest star, The Hound."

:lmao:

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Wrong. Raisin has 0 iq. Sansa can breathe and think so she has more IQ than a raisin.

Actually, Sansa's IQ is quite high.  She's very intelligent; she just doesn't put it to good use in the first book.  But she learns quickly and is doing better in subsequent books.

As for the original question, I tend to blame Joffrey, Cersei, and Sandor, in roughly that order.  Joffrey most of all, for his original action and then lying about it.

A word about Arya.  No way is Mycah going to turn her down if she wants to play.  I don't think she is to blame (though whacking Joffrey on the head wasn't a good idea) but she probably shouldn't have commandeered Mycah in the first place.  If this is classist so be it.  Westeros is a very classist place, something Arya either doesn't realize or chooses to ignore.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Actually, Sansa's IQ is quite high.  She's very intelligent; she just doesn't put it to good use in the first book.  But she learns quickly and is doing better in subsequent books.

I know and agree. I was trying to point out that even someone with a really low iq would obviously have more IQ than a raisin so even if Sansa was stupid it still wouldn't apply.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Weird thread with some weird arguments from some certain folks.

Quick recap:  Joffrey was tipsy from the wine and trying to show off to Sansa.  As he's a cruel little shit he showed his real self by bullying Mycah quite viciously.  Mycah simply ran off the first chance he got.

Sansa told her father what really happened and Joffrey lied through his teeth to his parents.  This is all before Arya is found and brought before Robert on Cersei's orders.  She tells the truth but as it's her word against Joffrey's, Ned brings out Sansa to confirm what happens.  She panics and says she doesn't remember.  She doesn't "take sides", she doesn't "cover for Joffrey", she just doesn't say anything.

In the meantime Jaime, The Hound, Lannister and Stark soldiers have all been out looking for Arya and the former for Mycah too.  Whether The Hound was ordered to kill him* or simply interpreted that as his duty as Joffrey's protector (having heard "from the royal lips" that Mycah had attacked him) he killed him rather than bringing him back for punishment.

The only people who bear any responsibility are The Hound, Cersei and Joffrey.

*Jaime makes it clear later on that Cersei wanted Arya punished and that if he had found her rather than Jory it's quite possible that he would have killed her and hidden the body.  I think Cersei would likely use Jaime if she wanted someone dead and that The Hound took the initiative in thinking, correctly, that both Joffrey and Cersei wanted Mycah killed rather than returned for punishment.  As it's his job to protect Joffrey and Joffrey accused Mycah of attacking him I think this was pretty straightforward for him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Rondo said:

I almost gave you a "like".  It was close.  

Lol. You still can

12 hours ago, Rondo said:

Blame the game and not the player is good but not 100% correct.  And your lowly dig at my favorite Targaryen family costs you a "like."

I didn't mean to insult the family, just their past behavior 

12 hours ago, Rondo said:

But let us move on to the problem.  Sansa has the IQ of a raisin but she chose deliberately to side with Joffrey.   

Maybe. But if Sansa had the IQ of like, not a raisin, and she chose to side with Joff I'd say there's an issue at play. Evil child and such instead of a foolish love sick one.

13 hours ago, Rondo said:

By game do you mean the murdered kid was caught between the power play of the Starks and the Lannisters? 

Ok

13 hours ago, Rondo said:

That is right.  I blame the families.  Starks, Lannisters, and Robert.  

It's kinda all there fault, sure. 

What gets me is the reader thinks of this as the Mycha affair. So does Arya. Everyone else thinks about Lady. The butcher's boy is usually an afterthought 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

What gets me is the reader thinks of this as the Mycha affair. So does Arya. Everyone else thinks about Lady. The butcher's boy is usually an afterthought 

That's a good insight and the tragedy of the episode.  Later, Arya gets the Hound to admit to the killing and eventually he realizes he was wrong.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Of course it's not just Sandor. Cersei is the main culprit, since she ordered his murder whileJoffrey also bears some responsibility since he lied about their encounter and claimed Mycah had attacked him.

 

On 10/20/2022 at 8:04 PM, kissdbyfire said:

But the lion’s share of the blame goes to the Hound b/c he wasn’t ordered to kill Micah, and even if he had been, he’s an adult with free will who made the choice to kill a child. 

Of course she ordered the killing. She ordered Jaime to kill or main Arya, she certainly wouldn't leave a common boy unpunished.

On 10/21/2022 at 4:05 AM, chrisdaw said:

Sandor knows what Joffrey and Cersei are (and if he didn't by now he should, but he does), but in that instance he didn't stop to think, maybe didn't want to think. He was told a story of a bigger kid bullying a littler kid (Joffrey is older but smaller) and his mind went to a young Sandor being bullied by young Gregor and he saw red and took pleasure in acting out his revenge fantasy. When Arya speaks to what happen he comes to understand and believe it because it rings so true, he killed the victim for the bully.

It's bizarre how some people are willing to twist everything to whitewash their favorites. It's precisely because Sandor knows Joffrey that he would easily guess that Joffrey is lying. Simply put, Sandor doesn't give a damn. He's been ordered to kill, so he kills.

On 10/21/2022 at 4:42 PM, Hugorfonics said:

6. Sansa. She did know the truth, as she told her dad the real story, however when court came days later the alcoholic and traumatizing experience of this preteen probably got discombobulated with the facts and her feelings, thusly she says Idk, or I dont remember, which I think is honest. Disappointing but honest
(I wish I could blame Cersei, but I just cant. I mean, its all that stupid Targaryen rule about chopping off Dunks foot. Blame the game, not the players. (although Ned and Robert were in position to change the rules of the game so....)

This is unbelievable. Have you actually read the chapter in question? Sandor arrived with Mycah's body, blood already dried, without having any idea what had happened at the confrontation at the castle. Nothing, absolutely nothing Sansa did could have saved Mycah. And yet you're claiming Cersei is innocent! The same Cersei, which ordered Arya to be killed (or at least maimed) would leave someone like Mycah alive?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, GMantis said:

Of course she ordered the killing. She ordered Jaime to kill or main Arya, she certainly wouldn't leave a common boy unpunished.

That’s your assumption to make, but the fact is, we’ll  never know. It’s not in the text, no one talks about it or thinks about it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

That’s your assumption to make, but the fact is, we’ll  never know. It’s not in the text, no one talks about it or thinks about it. 

It's entirely fitting in Cersei's character. She's extremely vindictive, to the extend of killing a baby because she was Robert's bastard. I don't see why she would be any more merciful towards to a boy who dared to hurt her precious Joffrey.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, GMantis said:

It's entirely fitting in Cersei's character. She's extremely vindictive, to the extend of killing a baby because she was Robert's bastard. I don't see why she would be any more merciful towards to a boy who dared to hurt her precious Joffrey.

It’s nothing to do w/ being merciful. At all. All I’m saying is that there is no evidence that she issued such an order. And there are a few characters we could have learned this, from Sandor, to Jaime, to Joffrey, to Cersei herself. And yet we don’t. Is it possible? Of course. But stating it did happen is wrong, that’s all. Do you believe she ordered Sandor to kill Micah? Cool. But it’s still an assumption, at least until we learn something else about the event, which I doubt we will. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, GMantis said:

It's entirely fitting in Cersei's character. She's extremely vindictive, to the extend of killing a baby because she was Robert's bastard. I don't see why she would be any more merciful towards to a boy who dared to hurt her precious Joffrey.

I'm not sure she even needed to give the order.  Joffrey has accused Mycah and Arya of conspiring to attack him.  No one wants to hear Mycah's version of events because they're high nobility / royalty and he's a commoner.  Joffrey's arm was quite badly injured so any of the Lannister guards might have felt justified in taking retribution.  I'm sure they would have been rewarded.

The bigger question is what would have happened to Arya.  Given she's The Hand's daughter the guardsmen and even The Hound would be unlikely to go so far.  But given Cersei specifically argued with Robert to cut off Arya's hand it seems likely she took his refusal badly and persuaded Jaime to kill her instead.

A Feast for Crows - Jaime IV

"Do you see that window, ser?" Jaime used a sword to point. "That was Raymun Darry's bedchamber. Where King Robert slept, on our return from Winterfell. Ned Stark's daughter had run off after her wolf savaged Joff, you'll recall. My sister wanted the girl to lose a hand. The old penalty, for striking one of the blood royal. Robert told her she was cruel and mad. They fought for half the night . . . well, Cersei fought, and Robert drank. Past midnight, the queen summoned me inside. The king was passed out snoring on the Myrish carpet. I asked my sister if she wanted me to carry him to bed. She told me I should carry her to bed, and shrugged out of her robe. I took her on Raymun Darry's bed after stepping over Robert. If His Grace had woken I would have killed him there and then. He would not have been the first king to die upon my sword . . . but you know that story, don't you?" He slashed at a tree branch, shearing it in half. "As I was fucking her, Cersei cried, 'I want.' I thought that she meant me, but it was the Stark girl that she wanted, maimed or dead." The things I do for love. "It was only by chance that Stark's own men found the girl before me. If I had come on her first . . ."
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

The bigger question is what would have happened to Arya.  Given she's The Hand's daughter the guardsmen and even The Hound would be unlikely to go so far.  But given Cersei specifically argued with Robert to cut off Arya's hand it seems likely she took his refusal badly and persuaded Jaime to kill her instead.

I think we can trust Jaime own assessment of the situation. At that point in his life he was content to be led by Cersei and do . anything for her in the name of loveThe only question is whether he'd only cut off Arya's hand or kill her.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, LongRider said:

That's a good insight and the tragedy of the episode.  Later, Arya gets the Hound to admit to the killing and eventually he realizes he was wrong.  

Very depressing stuff 

Quote

Sandor moaned, and she rolled onto her side to look at him. She had left his name out too, she realized. Why had she done that? She tried to think of Mycah, but it was hard to remember what he'd looked like. She hadn't known him long. All he ever did was play at swords with me. "The Hound," she whispered, and, "Valar morghulis." Maybe he'd be dead by morning . . .

Real tragic

Quote

"Don't lie," he growled. "I hate liars. I hate gutless frauds even worse. Go on, do it." When Arya did not move, he said, "I killed your butcher's boy. I cut him near in half, and laughed about it after." He made a queer sound, and it took her a moment to realize he was sobbing. "And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf." A spasm of pain twisted his face. "Do you mean to make me beg, bitch? Do it! The gift of mercy . . . avenge your little Michael . . ."

"Mycah." Arya stepped away from him. "You don't deserve the gift of mercy."

I'm not sure if Sandor felt bad about his specific actions or just bad about his life and wanted it over. 

But the reality of butcher's boy is hardly a thought anymore, even for his friend.

55 minutes ago, GMantis said:

This is unbelievable. Have you actually read the chapter in question? Sandor arrived with Mycah's body, blood already dried, without having any idea what had happened at the confrontation at the castle. Nothing, absolutely nothing Sansa did could have saved Mycah.

She could have gone straight to Robert before court. I put Sansa on the bottom because deserves the least blame out of the group.

56 minutes ago, GMantis said:

The same Cersei, which ordered Arya to be killed (or at least maimed) would leave someone like Mycah alive?

Yea... That probably didn't happen. It's not smart politics .

 

28 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

"As I was fucking her, Cersei cried, 'I want.' I thought that she meant me, but it was the Stark girl that she wanted, maimed or dead." The things I do for love.

Things I do for love. Lol, it's more like one specific thing, right?

It's probably just Jaime assuming he knows Cersei wants because he's just a walking sword who doesn't think things out.

She probably was going to say I want Nymeria but had to settle for Lady, I doubt Lannister would risk it all over Arya

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...