Who really killed Micah?

[SeanF]

50 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

That’s your assumption to make, but the fact is, we’ll  never know. It’s not in the text, no one talks about it or thinks about it. 

I think it’s more that Sandor believed that Cersei and Robert would expect him to kill Mycah, for having struck a Prince.

[GMantis]

17 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

She could have gone straight to Robert before court. I put Sansa on the bottom because deserves the least blame out of the group.

This is literally grasping at straws. Just the last post you were claiming that Mycah was killed because Sansa refused to support Arya's version of events. Now that this has been exposed as the nonsense it is, you're inventing a fantastic version where Sansa should have thought to go to the king (which is not her place to do, since her father is there) to prevent an event she had no way of knowing could come to pass and which she would not have been able to prevent in any case. Why would Robert knowing about Sansa's version of events stop Cersei from sending Sandor and her other guards after Mycah and Arya? Even if Robert believed this version of events, Cersei would always claim that Joffrey said otherwise. Robert would not make the effort to stop them.

So why is it so hard to admit that Sansa was innocent here? This obsession with blaming her for events she could not possibly be guilty for is really bizarre to me.

 

21 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yea... That probably didn't happen. It's not smart politics .

Who said Cersei was smart?

 

27 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Things I do for love. Lol, it's more like one specific thing, right?

It's probably just Jaime assuming he knows Cersei wants because he's just a walking sword who doesn't think things out.

She probably was going to say I want Nymeria but had to settle for Lady, I doubt Lannister would risk it all over Arya

Why are you omitting the next part? Perhaps because it completely refutes your claim?

 

Quote

"It was only by chance that Stark's own men found the girl before me. If I had come on her first . . ."

In the same post you invent a wholly spurious construct to somehow accuse Sansa of being complicit in Mycah's death, you're blatantly misquoting material to whitewash an attempted child murderer, who by his won admission would have tried to murder another child. As I said, unbelievable...

[StarkTullies]

1.  Sandor: It is easy for us in a non-monarchy world to judge the actions of those who live in one, and we don't know what orders Sandor was given, and perhaps he felt he had "no choice".  But he did it, and he deserves the blame.  Even if he didn't take pleasure in murdering Mycah, he certainly didn't feel any remorse about it.  I think he did take pleasure in murdering the little boy, seeing as how he laughed about how Mycah didn't run very fast.

2.  Joffrey: He physically attacked Mycah simply for existing, lied about what happened, and very likely ordered Sandor to kill Mycah.

3.  Cersei: How is she not on the original list?  We know she told Jaime to maim or kill Arya... so it is a certainty her orders were worse for Mycah.  She ordered the death of the wrong direwolf, so she didn't care who was hurt in her desire for vengeance... just as long as someone was.

4.  Robert: He's the king, and Cersei has no power except through him.  He did nothing to squash Cersei's demands to kill Lady, and while he might have had stronger opinions about killing a little boy, his passiveness allows his psychotic wife to have free reign.  Robert did not discipline Sandor after the fact, or even seem to care.

I understand people blaming Sansa, but I don't agree with it.  Nothing Sansa could have said would have made a difference.  Cersei and Sandor didn't care about the truth, and Robert wasn't going to do anything to stop them.

Saying Arya is at fault is ludicrous... and victim-blaming Mycah for his own death is beyond ludicrous.  "Breaking social boundaries" is not deserving of death, and the Starks all seem willing to befriend the "common folk" of Winterfell.

[StarkTullies]

On 10/21/2022 at 9:42 AM, Hugorfonics said:

Ned. He knows the truth yet stood aside and let Mycha get murdered. (He also personally killed Lady)

"Letting Mycah get murdered" isn't true.  Sandor and Jaime were already out hunting for Arya and Mycah while Ned was also looking for his daughter.  He went back when Arya was found; Sandor and Jaime did not.  Nothing that happened in "Arya's trial" had an impact on Mycah's fate; Sandor was murdering Mycah at that very moment.

Yes, Ned killed Lady because the king ordered it... and it was the only way to prevent Illyn from butchering her or for Cersei to get her fur.  Lady was dead anyway; Ned gave her the most "humane" death he could, under the circumstances.

[Craving Peaches]

7 minutes ago, StarkTullies said:

and victim-blaming Mycah for his own death is beyond ludicrous.  "Breaking social boundaries" is not deserving of death, and the Starks all seem willing to befriend the "common folk" of Winterfell.

Also, Mycah didn't really have a choice. What was he supposed to do, refuse Arya, a highborn, when she asked to play?

[the trees have eyes]

1 hour ago, GMantis said:

I think we can trust Jaime own assessment of the situation. At that point in his life he was content to be led by Cersei and do . anything for her in the name of loveThe only question is whether he'd only cut off Arya's hand or kill her.

I tend to think he is telling Ilyn Payne he would have killed her.  Even Jaime has to know that cutting her hand off (as Cersei wanted Robert to allow/order(!)) would cause an almighty sh*tstorm, not least because Robert would have no difficulty working out who had done this and why - in defiance of his wishes - if a handless Arya was brought back into camp whimpering or found dead, having bled out from the wound.

43 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Things I do for love. Lol, it's more like one specific thing, right?

It's probably just Jaime assuming he knows Cersei wants because he's just a walking sword who doesn't think things out.

She probably was going to say I want Nymeria but had to settle for Lady, I doubt Lannister would risk it all over Arya

She spent half the night arguing with Robert over Arya's hand not Nymeria.  Cersei isn't someone who likes being balked and the last time someone harmed her precious Joff - Robert striking him after he cut open the kitchen cat - she threatened to kill him if he ever hit him again.  It seems unthinkable to us but if she really set her mind on it - half the night arguing - Jaime offing Arya and dumping her body in a river weighted by a couple of rocks gives her satisfaction and no one is any the wiser.

It's risky but I can see it after precious Joff's injury.  Oh, and Melara Hetherspoon has something to say about Cersei getting rid of people she has a grudge against if there's no one to see.

[chrisdaw]

4 hours ago, GMantis said:

It's bizarre how some people are willing to twist everything to whitewash their favorites. It's precisely because Sandor knows Joffrey that he would easily guess that Joffrey is lying. Simply put, Sandor doesn't give a damn. He's been ordered to kill, so he kills.

What's not bizarre but tiresome is how people get a hate on characters and dismiss all depth despite obvious contrivance by the author. I stated Sandor is to blame, as he is, it was the point of my post that he is, it's important that he is to blame (and not how whitewashing works) as he needs to be flawed so that his experiences may correct it, he has an arc. Sandor killed and took pleasure in it because it is a bullying scenario mirroring that of his younger self and Gregor, it is a quite clear contrivance of the author that one paying attention shouldn't need pointed out to them, but thankfully for those who missed it now it has been. Ignore it and continue to miss the point as you wish, but you can't say you weren't told.

[GMantis]

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

What's not bizarre but tiresome is how people get a hate on characters and dismiss all depth despite obvious contrivance by the author. I stated Sandor is to blame, as he is, it was the point of my post that he is, it's important that he is to blame (and not how whitewashing works) as he needs to be flawed so that his experiences may correct it, he has an arc. Sandor killed and took pleasure in it because it is a bullying scenario mirroring that of his younger self and Gregor, it is a quite clear contrivance of the author that one paying attention shouldn't need pointed out to them, but thankfully for those who missed it now it has been. Ignore it and continue to miss the point as you wish, but you can't say you weren't told.

Again, this interpretation is simply not plausible. Even disregarding the fact that Joffrey would be barely younger than Mycah and likely bigger than him, Sandor is smart enough to know that Joffrey is almost certainly the initiator, since he knows well that he's a sadistic bully.

[Hugorfonics]

6 hours ago, GMantis said:

This is literally grasping at straws. Just the last post you were claiming that Mycah was killed because Sansa refused to support Arya's version of events. Now that this has been exposed as the nonsense it is, you're inventing a fantastic version where Sansa should have thought to go to the king (which is not her place to do, since her father is there) to prevent an event she had no way of knowing could come to pass and which she would not have been able to prevent in any case. Why would Robert knowing about Sansa's version of events stop Cersei from sending Sandor and her other guards after Mycah and Arya? Even if Robert believed this version of events, Cersei would always claim that Joffrey said otherwise. Robert would not make the effort to stop them.

So why is it so hard to admit that Sansa was innocent here? This obsession with blaming her for events she could not possibly be guilty for is really bizarre to me.

Sansa doesnt care about Mycah. She probably doesnt even remember he existed, but if she did she could have said something in his defense, unlike Dunk Mycah never got a trial.
Shes the main character of asoiaf, most stuff is because of her. Like the entire date going badly, she definitely didnt help any situation. 

6 hours ago, GMantis said:

Who said Cersei was smart?

asoiaf

6 hours ago, GMantis said:

Why are you omitting the next part? Perhaps because it completely refutes your claim?

I said Jaime doesnt think and often guesses incorrectly about which Stark child she wants killed. Jaime woulda killed her sure, but I dont think because she ordered it or anything.

6 hours ago, GMantis said:

In the same post you invent a wholly spurious construct to somehow accuse Sansa of being complicit in Mycah's death, you're blatantly misquoting material to whitewash an attempted child murderer, who by his won admission would have tried to murder another child. As I said, unbelievable...

Unbelievable? 
I said Cerseis not to blame for mycah which is true, I never absolved Jaime of anything.

5 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

Letting Mycah get murdered" isn't true.  Sandor and Jaime were already out hunting for Arya and Mycah while Ned was also looking for his daughter.  He went back when Arya was found; Sandor and Jaime did not.  Nothing that happened in "Arya's trial" had an impact on Mycah's fate; Sandor was murdering Mycah at that very moment.

If Ned cared he could have sent men to look for Mycah, instead he didnt think twice

5 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

Yes, Ned killed Lady because the king ordered it... and it was the only way to prevent Illyn from butchering her or for Cersei to get her fur.  Lady was dead anyway; Ned gave her the most "humane" death he could, under the circumstances.

The last king ordered Ned to kill himself, he didnt do it. This king is evidently just as nuts/weak and Ned shoulda taken his kids and peaced the fuck out of there right then, with two breathing direwolves following

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

She spent half the night arguing with Robert over Arya's hand not Nymeria.  Cersei isn't someone who likes being balked and the last time someone harmed her precious Joff - Robert striking him after he cut open the kitchen cat - she threatened to kill him if he ever hit him again.  It seems unthinkable to us but if she really set her mind on it - half the night arguing - Jaime offing Arya and dumping her body in a river weighted by a couple of rocks gives her satisfaction and no one is any the wiser.

It's risky but I can see it after precious Joff's injury.  Oh, and Melara Hetherspoon has something to say about Cersei getting rid of people she has a grudge against if there's no one to see.

It seems too nuts to me, even for Cersei. Jaime on the other hand, lol

[Roswell]

On 10/20/2022 at 9:49 AM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Who was responsible for Micah’s violent ending?  It isn’t just Sandor.

All of them are. Micah too.  
 

a)  Joffrey. Bad conduct for a prince. He’s not honest. He also has a cruel streak.

Joff instigated it. He took child's play and made it ugly.  Guilty.

On 10/20/2022 at 9:49 AM, Moiraine Sedai said:

b) Sansa covered for Joffrey.

Sansa kept the truth and stayed silent to back Joff.  Guilty.

On 10/20/2022 at 9:49 AM, Moiraine Sedai said:

c) Sandor is the adult but he was a sworn protector of his prince. Micah attacked his protectee.  He was lied to. The only excuse (but valid): he was ordered. 

Guilty

On 10/20/2022 at 9:49 AM, Moiraine Sedai said:

d) Arya should have better explained what happened. Moreover, she should obey the social boundaries between her class and the boy’s.

e). Micah made a bad call to befriend Arya. It was too dangerous to hang out with the governing class. He was too comfortable around Arya. He broke social boundaries. 

Arya was not good at observing social rules.  If there is fault there it is on her and not the boy. 

 

 

[Roswell]

Question.  What would Jaime have done to Arya?

[chrisdaw]

6 hours ago, GMantis said:

Again, this interpretation is simply not plausible. Even disregarding the fact that Joffrey would be barely younger than Mycah and likely bigger than him, Sandor is smart enough to know that Joffrey is almost certainly the initiator, since he knows well that he's a sadistic bully.

lol yeah not plausible. I've explained as much as I'm willing to.

[StarkTullies]

6 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

If Ned cared he could have sent men to look for Mycah, instead he didnt think twice

We know that Ned did care, and we don't know that he didn't think twice.  His chapter started after a multi-day gap after Arya had already been found.  Was Arya his priority?  Of course she was.  But Arya and Mycah were not together.

I know you hate Ned, but blaming him for Mycah's death is reaching.  Especially if you are absolving Cersei of all responsibility.

6 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

The last king ordered Ned to kill himself, he didnt do it. This king is evidently just as nuts/weak and Ned shoulda taken his kids and peaced the fuck out of there right then, with two breathing direwolves following

Well Aerys didn't order Ned to kill himself; he ordered Jon Arryn to turn Ned and Robert over to be killed.  Robert was a weak and unworthy king.  He was not "nuts", and he was nowhere near as terrible as Aerys.

Aerys's demand for Ned and Robert's deaths was an act of war, after a long series of other events proving Aerys needed to be overthrown.  Robert's order of Lady's death was cruel and unjust, but it wasn't an act of war.  If you're going to criticize Ned for anything, criticize him for allowing Sansa and Arya to take their direwolves into the capital city in the first place.  How would that ever work?

Sure, I would have supported Ned turning his back on Robert right then and there.  Ned didn't want this position at all; he went with the intention of sorting out the corruption in the court, and going home wouldn't have helped that.  He also should have ended Sansa's engagement after seeing what a little monster Joffrey was.  Probably the smartest he could do- if he still wanted to help the realm but also keep his family safe- was to send his daughters back but continue on himself.

But none of these things make Ned guilty of Mycah's death... or Lady's.

[the trees have eyes]

9 hours ago, Roswell said:

Joff instigated it. He took child's play and made it ugly.  Guilty.

Sansa kept the truth and stayed silent to back Joff.  Guilty.

Guilty

Out of curiosity do you consider Joffrey, Sansa and Sandor equally guilty?

I hope I don't need to point out that Sansa has no involvement in Mycah's death and has already told her father what really happened.

3 hours ago, StarkTullies said:

Sure, I would have supported Ned turning his back on Robert right then and there.  Ned didn't want this position at all; he went with the intention of sorting out the corruption in the court, and going home wouldn't have helped that.  He also should have ended Sansa's engagement after seeing what a little monster Joffrey was.  Probably the smartest he could do- if he still wanted to help the realm but also keep his family safe- was to send his daughters back but continue on himself.

It's a feudal monarchy though.  Refusing to serve at the King request and breaking off a betrothal with the Crown Prince will have serious consequences.  Plus he believes Robert is in danger from the Lannisters and that they have already murdered Jon Arryn.  He's kind of stuck.

[StarkTullies]

4 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

It's a feudal monarchy though.  Refusing to serve at the King request and breaking off a betrothal with the Crown Prince will have serious consequences.  Plus he believes Robert is in danger from the Lannisters and that they have already murdered Jon Arryn.  He's kind of stuck.

I agree, but Ned made the choice to abandon Robert later on anyway when he ordered the strike against Dany.  So Ned was already willing to turn his back on Robert, and Robert would have shrieked and wailed, but ultimately I don't think Robert would have stopped him.

Anyway, I said I would have supported Ned's hypothetical decision to turn his back on Robert (from a moral sense), not that I think that would necessary have been a wise thing to do.

[the trees have eyes]

1 hour ago, StarkTullies said:

I agree, but Ned made the choice to abandon Robert later on anyway when he ordered the strike against Dany.  So Ned was already willing to turn his back on Robert, and Robert would have shrieked and wailed, but ultimately I don't think Robert would have stopped him.

Anyway, I said I would have supported Ned's hypothetical decision to turn his back on Robert (from a moral sense), not that I think that would necessary have been a wise thing to do.

He refuses to condone or take part in the authorisation of Dany's murder as it is an affront to his honour and morals.  He resigns the Handship for a time but he doesn't actually leave or abandon Robert. He's pretty easily side-tracked by LF giving him a "lead" on the Jon Arryn murder.

The Trident is really just a quarrel, however nasty, and at this point he is still Robert's friend, intending to help him and uncover who killed Jon Arryn.

[BalerionTheCat]

Joffrey is a prick and the Hound knows that. He could have taken Micah alive, unharmed. And let Robert deal with that.

[John Suburbs]

On 10/21/2022 at 7:08 PM, Craving Peaches said:

Never forget. All problems in the story can be traced back to him. He should have left well enough alone and kept out of other people's business.

Sure, but he wouldn't have done that if Aenar hadn't relocated to Dragonstone, and he wouldn't have done that if Daenys hadn't had her vision, and she wouldn't have done that if someone or something hadn't caused the Doom, which wouldn't have happened if the Valyrians hadn't pissed off so many people, which only happened because some Valyrian ages ago figured out how to tame a dragon . . .

And on and on and on.

So when it comes to Micah, the Hound is responsible. No one else. Even if Cersei ordered him to do it, which is likely, he still made the decision himself.

[Hugorfonics]

On 10/23/2022 at 5:23 AM, StarkTullies said:

We know that Ned did care

Do we?

Quote

"No sign of your daughter, Hand," the Hound rasped down, "but the day was not wholly wasted. We got her little pet." He reached back and shoved the burden off, and it fell with a thump in front of Ned.

Bending, Ned pulled back the cloak, dreading the words he would have to find for Arya, but it was not Nymeria after all. It was the butcher's boy, Mycah, his body covered in dried blood. He had been cut almost in half from shoulder to waist by some terrible blow struck from above.

I believe it was this line that pushed me over the edge of Eddards type disgusting.

On 10/23/2022 at 5:23 AM, StarkTullies said:

His chapter started after a multi-day gap after Arya had already been found.  Was Arya his priority?  Of course she was.  But Arya and Mycah were not together.

I know you hate Ned, but blaming him for Mycah's death is reaching.  Especially if you are absolving Cersei of all responsibility.

The hand of the king protects all in his realm, Davos understood this. Ned knew the real story, Cersei did not. 

Ned did not kill Mycha, agreed. However he didn't save him despite his life clearly being in jeopardy. Aryas a kid but Ned knows Westeros is a dark place

On 10/23/2022 at 5:23 AM, StarkTullies said:

Well Aerys didn't order Ned to kill himself; he ordered Jon Arryn to turn Ned and Robert over to be killed.  Robert was a weak and unworthy king.  He was not "nuts", and he was nowhere near as terrible as Aerys.

Terrible enough though. Ned was purposely following an worthy king (like Sandor) who's entire court wanted him dead.

Bro, turn around!

On 10/23/2022 at 5:23 AM, StarkTullies said:

If you're going to criticize Ned for anything, criticize him for allowing Sansa and Arya to take their direwolves into the capital city in the first place.  How would that ever work?

Sansa wouldn't get beat every single day, thats how it would work.

On 10/23/2022 at 5:23 AM, StarkTullies said:

Sure, I would have supported Ned turning his back on Robert right then and there.  Ned didn't want this position at all; he went with the intention of sorting out the corruption in the court, and going home wouldn't have helped that.  He also should have ended Sansa's engagement after seeing what a little monster Joffrey was.  Probably the smartest he could do- if he still wanted to help the realm but also keep his family safe- was to send his daughters back but continue on himself.

It's inconceivable to me that someone would give their baby girl to Joffrey. But for sure, he coulda still went on while making sure his kids were safe. (And not used as bait to flush out JonA killer or whatever)

On 10/23/2022 at 5:23 AM, StarkTullies said:

But none of these things make Ned guilty of Mycah's death... or Lady's.

He slit her fucking throat. 

If Sandor gets the lion share blame for Mycah then Ned has to with Lady

[Craving Peaches]

36 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

If Sandor gets the lion share blame for Mycah then Ned has to with Lady

So do you think Ser Illyn is more responsible for Ned's death than Joffrey?