Hugorfonics Posted October 24, 2022 Share Posted October 24, 2022 8 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: So do you think Ser Illyn is more responsible for Ned's death than Joffrey? Definitely. Not absolving Joff of blame but yea, Illyn chopped the man's head off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springwatch Posted October 24, 2022 Share Posted October 24, 2022 I don't blame Sandor for Mycah's death. It was a mercy killing - Sandor is big on the gift of mercy. So is R'hllor apparently... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the trees have eyes Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 18 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: So do you think Ser Illyn is more responsible for Ned's death than Joffrey? The application of modern standards of personal responsibility and legal notions such as refusing a superior's order if it clashes with the individual's conscience are used by some posters to comprehensively misinterpret the story and the actions of characters living in a feudal, medieval monarchy. Whether it's the political system, the judicial system, the marriage system, the duty and relationship between a Lord and vassal, individuals are expected to buck the system in accordance with a modern point of view. It makes for some strange views and both pointless and tedious discussions. Ned quite obviously kills Lady himself and has her remains taken back to Winterfell in order to prevent Cersei having her butchered and skinned. Once the king has spoken - and publicly - this will happen unless Ned rebels and commits treason...... All he does is give her a more dignified end and prevent her corpse from being mutilated. Blaming him for something he tried to prevent and to shame Robert out of ordering is plain daft. 19 hours ago, Hugorfonics said: I believe it was this line that pushed me over the edge of Eddards type disgusting. Lord above. The passage reads like this: A Game of Thrones - Eddard III There was something slung over the back of his destrier, a heavy shape wrapped in a bloody cloak. "No sign of your daughter, Hand," the Hound rasped down, "but the day was not wholly wasted. We got her little pet." He reached back and shoved the burden off, and it fell with a thump in front of Ned. Bending, Ned pulled back the cloak, dreading the words he would have to find for Arya, but it was not Nymeria after all. It was the butcher's boy, Mycah, his body covered in dried blood. He had been cut almost in half from shoulder to waist by some terrible blow struck from above. "You rode him down," Ned said. The Hound's eyes seemed to glitter through the steel of that hideous dog's-head helm. "He ran." He looked at Ned's face and laughed. "But not very fast." The scene finishes on Sandor's line. The Hound quite deliberately leads Ned to believe he has killed Nymeria but it's a trick and he laughs at Ned's reaction. There is nothing to say Ned was indifferent to Mycah's fate, indeed he seems shocked, and the only thing to be disgusted by is Sandor's actions and cruel trick. You know this perfectly well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 12 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said: The application of modern standards of personal responsibility and legal notions such as refusing a superior's order if it clashes with the individual's conscience are used by some posters to comprehensively misinterpret the story and the actions of characters living in a feudal, medieval monarchy. Illyn refusing the order makes no difference to whether Eddard dies or not. It would just be by another's hand. Illyn himself may also well die for refusing the command of the king. His job as the King's Justice is to carry out the King's Justice. His approval, and whether it meets his moral standards, is irrelevant. In this context, claiming that Illyn is more liable for the death of Eddard than Joffrey is like claiming the sword is more liable for the death of Eddard than Joffrey, I think. I don't think there's anything wrong with analysing characters through modern moral and legal perspectives, as long as you accept that there's no way for them to reasonably act within those contraints because they don't exist for them. As you say, it would be silly to critisise, for example, Eddard for not allowing Gared legal representation. So while I think you can use it for analysis, I agree that you can't really base your criticisms off it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James West Posted October 27, 2022 Share Posted October 27, 2022 Arya repeated Sandor's sin when she murdered Dareon. Micah and Dareon were innocents who were victims of the moral rot in the upper class of Westeros. Sandor and Arya made the injustice even worse. Sandor at least feel guilt. Arya feels nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the trees have eyes Posted October 27, 2022 Share Posted October 27, 2022 9 hours ago, James West said: Sandor at least feel guilt. Arya feels nothing. It's more "Arya feels nothing....yet" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted October 27, 2022 Share Posted October 27, 2022 9 hours ago, James West said: Arya repeated Sandor's sin when she murdered Dareon. Micah and Dareon were innocents who were victims of the moral rot in the upper class of Westeros. Sandor and Arya made the injustice even worse. Sandor at least feel guilt. Arya feels nothing. Definitely. An adult running down and butchering a child is exactly the same as a traumatised child killing a criminal. Exactly. The. Same. /s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted October 27, 2022 Share Posted October 27, 2022 1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said: Definitely. An adult running down and butchering a child is exactly the same as a traumatised child killing a criminal. Exactly. The. Same. /s I have a suspicion we'll be getting a comment about Janos Slynt the Martyr, quite soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 27, 2022 Share Posted October 27, 2022 7 minutes ago, SeanF said: I have a suspicion we'll be getting a comment about Janos Slynt the Martyr, quite soon. Rabid Snowhead murdered good Janos Slynt in revenge for the legal execution of his father. He abused the powers of Lord Commander for his own gain. He is not fit to lead. Janos is a victim of the Westeros class structure. Jon was foaming at the mouth to have him murdered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted October 27, 2022 Share Posted October 27, 2022 15 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: Rabid Snowhead murdered good Janos Slynt in revenge for the legal execution of his father. He abused the powers of Lord Commander for his own gain. He is not fit to lead. Janos is a victim of the Westeros class structure. Jon was foaming at the mouth to have him murdered. I do think Jon deserves a lot of criticism for his treatment of Gilly and frankly, I'm surprised that this so rarely comes up. But, Janos Slynt? That is almost a case of suicide by cop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrosh Lannister Posted October 27, 2022 Share Posted October 27, 2022 Why was Mycah killed when it was Arya that struck the prince Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted October 27, 2022 Share Posted October 27, 2022 Just now, Tyrosh Lannister said: Why was Mycah killed when it was Arya that struck the prince Arya is a human being. Mycah isn't, in the eyes of almost everyone who is present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the trees have eyes Posted October 27, 2022 Share Posted October 27, 2022 2 hours ago, Tyrosh Lannister said: Why was Mycah killed when it was Arya that struck the prince We know this; those in story do not. Joffrey claimed that Arya and Mycah attacked him together, along with Nymeria. Cersei parrots this and we can assume all the royal and Lannister guardsmen have been told the same: A Game of Thrones - Eddard III The queen stepped forward. "You know full well, Stark. This girl of yours attacked my son. Her and her butcher's boy. That animal of hers tried to tear his arm off." Arya is high nobility so is insulated somewhat from punishment or retribution, Mycah is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GMantis Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 On 10/23/2022 at 5:24 AM, Hugorfonics said: Sansa doesnt care about Mycah. She probably doesnt even remember he existed, but if she did she could have said something in his defense, unlike Dunk Mycah never got a trial. Shes the main character of asoiaf, most stuff is because of her. Like the entire date going badly, she definitely didnt help any situation. She said something in his defense by telling her father how Joffrey started the fight by attacking Mycah. After that it's out of her hands - she can't stop the queen from sending men to hunt after Mycah when even her dather couldn't. And of course, she wasn't to blame for the incident in the first place. It's not her fault Joffrey was a sadistic bully. On 10/23/2022 at 5:24 AM, Hugorfonics said: asoiaf Which shows Cersei consistently as shortsighted and rash, often to the level of irrationality. On 10/23/2022 at 5:24 AM, Hugorfonics said: I said Jaime doesnt think and often guesses incorrectly about which Stark child she wants killed. Jaime woulda killed her sure, but I dont think because she ordered it or anything. There is no ambiguity whatsoever here. I don't understand how one can interpret this scene otherwise. On 10/23/2022 at 5:24 AM, Hugorfonics said: Unbelievable? I said Cerseis not to blame for mycah which is true, I never absolved Jaime of anything. It's unbelivable that you're absolving Cersei when she at the very least sent the men after Mycah, while blaming Sansa against all logic. On 10/23/2022 at 5:24 AM, Hugorfonics said: If Ned cared he could have sent men to look for Mycah, instead he didnt think twice The last king ordered Ned to kill himself, he didnt do it. This king is evidently just as nuts/weak and Ned shoulda taken his kids and peaced the fuck out of there right then, with two breathing direwolves following It seems too nuts to me, even for Cersei. Jaime on the other hand, lol On 10/23/2022 at 6:20 AM, Roswell said: Sansa kept the truth and stayed silent to back Joff. Guilty. Except that Mycah was already dead at this point. I'm amazed at how many blame her when the course of events couldn't be any more clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 18 minutes ago, GMantis said: Except that Mycah was already dead at this point. I'm amazed at how many blame her when the course of events couldn't be any more clear. I don't know whether people genuinely lack the reading comprehension skill to understand, or know what really happened but don't care because it doesn't support their agenda of painting the Starks as the worst people in Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pontius Pilate Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 On 10/20/2022 at 9:49 AM, Moiraine Sedai said: Who was responsible for Micah’s violent ending? It isn’t just Sandor. All of them are. Micah too. a) Joffrey. Bad conduct for a prince. He’s not honest. He also has a cruel streak. b) Sansa covered for Joffrey. c) Sandor is the adult but he was a sworn protector of his prince. Micah attacked his protectee. He was lied to. The only excuse (but valid): he was ordered. d) Arya should have better explained what happened. Moreover, she should obey the social boundaries between her class and the boy’s. e). Micah made a bad call to befriend Arya. It was too dangerous to hang out with the governing class. He was too comfortable around Arya. He broke social boundaries. Agree? All of them are guilty but I would place Sandor at the top of the guilt tree. Then Joffrey, Sansa, Arya, and lastly Micah. Micah could have said to Arya "I'm sorry M'Lady" and "I can't play." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 16 minutes ago, Pontius Pilate said: Sansa It is impossible for Sansa to have anything to do with Micah's death. Micah was dead, or in the process of dying, before she said a word. This is not a matter of opinion but one of fact. 17 minutes ago, Pontius Pilate said: Micah could have said to Arya "I'm sorry M'Lady" and "I can't play." No he could not. A peasant boy cannot just say 'no' to a highborn lady. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the trees have eyes Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 44 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: It is impossible for Sansa to have anything to do with Micah's death. Micah was dead, or in the process of dying, before she said a word. This is not a matter of opinion but one of fact. No he could not. A peasant boy cannot just say 'no' to a highborn lady. The best I can say is I think some people are interpreting "responsible" as meaning who was involved in any way in the chain of circumstances that led to Mycah's death. I really don't know why we haven't blamed whoever saddled Joffrey's horse or gave him the wine or the cooks and servants fed him and Sansa breakfast as they surely would never have gone riding otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 6 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said: The best I can say is I think some people are interpreting "responsible" as meaning who was involved in any way in the chain of circumstances that led to Mycah's death. I really don't know why we haven't blamed whoever saddled Joffrey's horse or gave him the wine or the cooks and servants fed him and Sansa breakfast as they surely would never have gone riding otherwise. But wasn't Joffrey the one who asked Sansa to go out riding? And Joffrey chose the location where they came upon Arya and Micah. All Sansa did was say 'yes' to Joffrey's offer. She would have no reason not to say 'yes'. Obviously if Sansa knew what would happen ahead of time she would likely decline but as it stands I can't see how she's at fault for Micah's death at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quoth the raven, Posted November 11, 2022 Share Posted November 11, 2022 On 10/24/2022 at 3:14 PM, Springwatch said: I don't blame Sandor for Mycah's death. It was a mercy killing - Sandor is big on the gift of mercy. So is R'hllor apparently... It's Arya's new religion who are big on the gift of mercy killings. Sansa bears partial guilt for the child's death. The next time, when she kills Sweet Robin, she will be fully guilty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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