Craving Peaches Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 I don't know if there was really much she could have done, given that he broke the only rule in the only place where Dothraki don't kill and enslave each other and everyone else. However from an in-universe (and possibly real world perspective), Daenerys does have a duty to Viserys: he is her king and also her brother. Was there anything she could have done differently, such as: 1. Trying to have him given a less painful death? 2. Trying to convince Drogo to spare him for further humiliation (I don't think that could have worked but should she have at least tried?) 3. Ensuring Viserys was not there in the first place? Now I think the important question is: Even if nothing she could do would work to help Viserys, should Daenerys still have at least tried? Viserys is a horrible human being, but he was still her brother and one of the few remaining members of House Targaryen. As some food for thought, I will provide Jon's thoughts on a similar matter. Quote He was an uncle to Queen Selyse and had been among the first to follow her in accepting Melisandre's red god. If he is not a kinslayer, he is the next best thing. Axell Florent's brother had been burned by Melisandre, Maester Aemon had informed him, yet Ser Axell had done little and less to stop it. What sort of man can stand by idly and watch his own brother being burned alive? Edit: Please do not take this as a defence of Viserys. It is not intended to be, but some people seem to have got the wrong idea. I find Viserys a horrible human being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the trees have eyes Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 Remember she does try and get him to put the sword away but he ignores her and then directly threatens her child. Viserys didn't just break a sacred Dothraki taboo, he pointed a sword at her stomach and threatened to cut Drogo's child out of her womb. There is no way back from this and no real reason Dany should try to intervene further. Once Drogo knows what Viserys has said - and his actions are easy enough to interpret - he's toast. So even if she lied about what Viserys said he's going to die right there. I just don't have any sympathy for him at this point or believe that Dany has any further obligation to try and save him. A Game of Thrones - Daenerys V "The blade … you must not," she begged him. "Please, Viserys. It is forbidden. Put down the sword and come share my cushions. There's drink, food … is it the dragon's eggs you want? You can have them, only throw away the sword." "Do as she tells you, fool," Ser Jorah shouted, "before you get us all killed." Viserys laughed. "They can't kill us. They can't shed blood here in the sacred city … but I can." He laid the point of his sword between Daenerys's breasts and slid it downward, over the curve of her belly. "I want what I came for," he told her. "I want the crown he promised me. He bought you, but he never paid for you. Tell him I want what I bargained for, or I'm taking you back. You and the eggs both. He can keep his bloody foal. I'll cut the bastard out and leave it for him." The sword point pushed through her silks and pricked at her navel. Viserys was weeping, she saw; weeping and laughing, both at the same time, this man who had once been her brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 22, 2022 Author Share Posted October 22, 2022 8 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said: Remember she does try and get him to put the sword away but he ignores her and then directly threatens her child. She certainly tried to stop him doing anything stupid in the first place. But afterwards, should she have done something more to try and at least reduce his suffering? 9 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said: I just don't have any sympathy for him at this point or believe that Dany has any further obligation to try and save him. I have none either but you could argue Daenerys, as his sister and vassal, was obliged to do absolutely everything she could to try and prevent his death or at least minimise his suffering. Had she done everything she could? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 The guy threatened to kill the unborn child of his loving sister. I have no sympathy for the man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 22, 2022 Author Share Posted October 22, 2022 10 minutes ago, sifth said: The guy threatened to kill the unborn child of his loving sister. I have no sympathy for the man. I don't either, but I don't think it would change that Daenerys' had a legal obligation to her brother and liege lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldarion Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 18 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: I don't either, but I don't think it would change that Daenerys' had a legal obligation to her brother and liege lord. Seeing how she had been married to Drogo by that point, her obligation to him would supersede her obligation to Viserys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 I don’t think Dany is to blame at all. She’s very young and has gone through an awful lot, and at least some of the horrible things she went through were directly at Viserys’ hands/machinations. And she did try to help him, but the entitled prick would have none of that. He had it coming, he was never going to last much longer in that environment anyway. I don’t even see Viserys as her king, b/c he’s no king except in his deranged head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: Daenerys does have a duty to Viserys: No, she doesn't. She's not a slave. 4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: He is her king and also her brother. Was there anything she could have done differently, such as: Who tormented her and abused her and quite literally tried to kill her baby. 4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: Was there anything she could have done differently, such as: 1. Trying to have him given a less painful death? 2. Trying to convince Drogo to spare him for further humiliation (I don't think that could have worked but should she have at least tried?) No, she could not. It was out of her hands the moment Viserys was discovered. 4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: 3. Ensuring Viserys was not there in the first place? Everyone and their mother tried to get Viserys out and he did not listen. 4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: but he was still her brother and one of the few remaining members of House Targaryen. She did not owe him nothing. 4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said: What sort of man can stand by idly and watch his own brother being burned alive? The context is so vastly different that i can only be made as a bad faith argument. You do not owe shit to your abusers. 34 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: it would change that Daenerys' had a legal obligation to her brother and liege lord. Do you truly believe Dany is a slave and is legally and morally bound to protect an asshole even if she doesn't wanna? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H Wadsworth Longfellow Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 A Khaleesi in the traditional Dothraki system do not have much in the way of authority. Don't confuse The Mother of Dragons with the little girl who was Khal's Drogo's wife. Dany had little authority to overturn the laws and customs of the Dothraki. Especially not in that time and place. She had no choice but to let consequences take their course. We cannot blame her for the death of her brother. Wishing her brother out of the way is different from getting her brother out of the way. She was thinking it but if thoughts were a crime we would all be criminals. Many who died didn't deserve it. Just read on and check the debate on Dareon. Viserys didn't bother to learn about the Dothraki. He received the best education a student could have. Learning Dothraki was very doable for him. His superiority complex got the better of him. It's not a fault worthy of the death penalty but he was in the wrong place and the wrong time to be ignorant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 22, 2022 Author Share Posted October 22, 2022 41 minutes ago, frenin said: Do you truly believe Dany is a slave and is legally and morally bound to protect an asshole even if she doesn't wanna? Of course not. I am talking about the feudal obligation that she owes Viserys. Also, I specifically mentioned that it was a legal obligation only. I made no mention of morals. I think you misunderstand me. I am not saying that Daenerys' should just blindly follow what Viserys says, and I am not trying to excuse his abuse. All I am asking is: could Daenerys have done anything else to stop his death or make it less painful. 41 minutes ago, frenin said: The context is so vastly different that i can only be made as a bad faith argument. How is the context different? In both scenarios the person watches as their sibling dies by being burned. I am not saying Daenerys is a kinslayer, but I don't think the two scenarios are so remote from each other as to constitute a bad faith argument when I bring them up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 22, 2022 Author Share Posted October 22, 2022 59 minutes ago, Aldarion said: Seeing how she had been married to Drogo by that point, her obligation to him would supersede her obligation to Viserys. That is true. If I remember correctly, according to the old laws, Daenerys would count as part of Drogo's family now. And since they were out of Westeros, Viserys would have very limited authority at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 44 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: Of course not. I am talking about the feudal obligation that she owes Viserys. Also, I specifically mentioned that it was a legal obligation only. I made no mention of morals. She doesn't have such feudal obligation towards him, but her husband. And feudal obligations are a two way street. 48 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: All I am asking is: could Daenerys have done anything else to stop his death or make it less painful. She could not, it is not within her power. 48 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: How is the context different? In both scenarios the person watches as their sibling dies by being burned. I am not saying Daenerys is a kinslayer, but I don't think the two scenarios are so remote from each other as to constitute a bad faith argument when I bring them up. Jon is talking of a normal sibling relationship. Do you think, he'd sympathize Viserys and vilify Dany if he were to know the story of abuse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon Sunderland Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 I don't think she's to blame at all, but I do think the quote from the Jon chapter is supposed to call back to Viserys's Death. Daenerys is heavily in denial during the event, shown by quotes like "this man who had once been her brother" and "He was no dragon, Dany thought, curiously calm. Fire cannot kill a dragon." She clearly doesn't fully process what is happening and still hasn't. It's one of the things that's supposed to make you question if something is wrong with Daenerys. What sort of woman can stand by idly and watch her own brother being burned alive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Peres Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 First obligation to any mother is to her child. The moment Viserys threat the unborn child he could not expect anything from Dany. The fact that she offered to let him go with the Eggs, is more proof of her generosity, I don't see characters like Stannis or Renly making that concession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 A bride’s primary obligation, in this world, is towards her husband. A mother’s primary obligation is towards her child. Viserys offended her husband, and threatened her child, so no, Daenerys did nothing wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 22, 2022 Author Share Posted October 22, 2022 35 minutes ago, frenin said: She doesn't have such feudal obligation towards him, but her husband. Yes, I agreed with that in the post directly above yours. 39 minutes ago, frenin said: And feudal obligations are a two way street. They are, but a lot of characters seem to treat them as if they aren't. 44 minutes ago, frenin said: Jon is talking of a normal sibling relationship. Do you think, he'd sympathize Viserys and vilify Dany if he were to know the story of abuse? All Jon says is 'what kind of brother'. There's nothing to say he's talking about a specific type of relationship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 15 minutes ago, Daemon Sunderland said: I don't think she's to blame at all, but I do think the quote from the Jon chapter is supposed to call back to Viserys's Death. I agree Dany’s not to blame at all. But I don’t think Jon thinking about the Florents has anything to do with Viserys. 15 minutes ago, Daemon Sunderland said: Daenerys is heavily in denial during the event, shown by quotes like "this man who had once been her brother" and "He was no dragon, Dany thought, curiously calm. Fire cannot kill a dragon." She clearly doesn't fully process what is happening and still hasn't. Is it denial though? I’m no psychologist but it doesn’t seem to be denial… I think of it more as detachment. She tried, she did all she could do to help him, even before this moment. His response has always been the same: being the nastiest entitled prick he could be. And let’s not forget the years upon years of mental, physical and emotional abuse he inflicted on her. 15 minutes ago, Daemon Sunderland said: It's one of the things that's supposed to make you question if something is wrong with Daenerys. Disagree. 15 minutes ago, Daemon Sunderland said: What sort of woman can stand by idly and watch her own brother being burned alive? Huh? Any woman who was/is being systematically abused has every fucking right to do whatever she has to do to deal w/ the situation. And if the abuser is a brother/father/relative - in other words, someone who’s supposed to love and support you, it’s even worse imo, making the abuser even more deserving of whatever they get. Final thought: just imagine being Ramsay sister. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 54 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: All Jon says is 'what kind of brother'. There's nothing to say he's talking about a specific type of relationship. Do you need to be told that? Jon loves his siblings fiercely, most if not fraternal relationships he has witnessed have been cordial and so he just doesn't understand how anyone would not protect their siblings. As far as we can say the Florent brothers were tight enough before lunacy caught up with one. Do you truly believe Jon would wonder that had the Stark siblings treated him like Viserys treated Dany? 54 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: They are, but a lot of characters seem to treat them as if they aren't. Because they are on the receiving end and would want to keep it that way. Kings would never suffer rebellions if that was true. 1 hour ago, Daemon Sunderland said: It's one of the things that's supposed to make you question if something is wrong with Daenerys. Dany doing nothing while her abuser dies is one of the first things supposed to question her sanity? Holy hell Btw, it's not denial, she's putting distance between her and Viserys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 22, 2022 Author Share Posted October 22, 2022 45 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: Huh? Any woman who was/is being systematically abused has every fucking right to do whatever she has to do to deal w/ the situation. And if the abuser is a brother/father/relative - in other words, someone who’s supposed to love and support you, it’s even worse imo, making the abuser even more deserving of whatever they get. Final thought: just imagine being Ramsay sister. Despite her awful treament at the hands of Viserys, she still names a dragon after him, far more than he ever deserved in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 8 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: Despite her awful treament at the hands of Viserys, she still names a dragon after him, far more than he ever deserved in my opinion. Agree, b/c imo he deserves nothing. I’ve always thought of that as a sort of nostalgia for what could have been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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