How Culpable is Daenerys in the Death of Viserys?

[Craving Peaches]

9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I’ve always thought of that as a sort of nostalgia for what could have been.

She also has that weird dream where Viserys starts speaking to her as he's burning, so perhaps she still feels some regret about the whole thing. Even though there was nothing to be done. I think things weren't always so bad in the past and they had a better relationship. Daenerys does get quite nostalgia - the red door etc.

[GMantis]

Viserys earned his death in three different ways - by taking out a sword in a sacred place where that is forbidden, by threatening Drogo's wife and by demanding her back (without the unborn child). For each of these, Drogo could have easily killed him on the spot, unless he was particularly merciful (and merciful people don't become Khals). Combined and he'd have to do it just to avoid losing face - no ruler, especially a Dothraki one, could afford to be insulted in such manner in his own hall. So Viserys was completely doomed and Daenerys could do nothing about (especially after she did everything in her power to try to saver him). And not translating Viserys' words wouldn't work - Drogo had other translators, like Jhiqui (Daenerys only offered to translate to save her from Drogo's wrath).

 

8 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

As some food for thought, I will provide Jon's thoughts on a similar matter.

Jon's perspective is heavily colored by his circumstances of having five loving siblings. When he thinks of a person sitting by while their brother is burned alive, he imagines himself in the same situation and since he would never stand by and allow his siblings to be murdered in front of him, he can't understand another person doing anything else. I really doubt he would hold the same perspective about Daenerys if he knew how Viserys had treated her. Just how he understood that the best choice for Craster's daughters was to kill him, so would he understand that Daenerys could do nothing about her brother.

[SeanF]

25 minutes ago, frenin said:

Do you need to be told that?

Jon loves his siblings fiercely, most if not fraternal relationships he has witnessed have been cordial and so he just doesn't understand how anyone would not protect their siblings.

As far as we can say the Florent brothers were  tight enough before lunacy caught up with one.

Do you truly believe Jon would wonder that had the Stark siblings treated him like Viserys treated Dany?

 

 

Because they are on the receiving end and would want to keep it that way. 

Kings would never suffer rebellions if that was true.

 

 

Dany doing nothing while her abuser dies is one of the first things supposed to question her sanity? Holy hell

Btw, it's not denial, she's putting distance between her and Viserys.

Ding and Dong thought that not trying to save the man who’d just threatened to murder her and her child was evidence of madness.

Which tells you far more about them than about her.

[Daemon Sunderland]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Is it denial though? I’m no psychologist but it doesn’t seem to be denial… I think of it more as detachment.

Detachment is definitely a better word for it, thank you. I still think it's unhealthy for her to react this way though. And I do think this is supposed to tell us something about her mental wellbeing and her actions later on in the series.

 

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Any woman who was/is being systematically abused has every fucking right to do whatever she has to do to deal w/ the situation. And if the abuser is a brother/father/relative - in other words, someone who’s supposed to love and support you, it’s even worse imo, making the abuser even more deserving of whatever they get. 

I agree. I didn't mean the "if something is wrong with Daenerys." thing as judgment, more concern. I just think that her witnessing her brother, who has been with her her whole life, get killed in such a brutal way did affect her.

 

36 minutes ago, frenin said:

Dany doing nothing while her abuser dies is one of the first things supposed to question her sanity? Holy hell

I worded my post badly. I don't remember thinking anything of it the first time, but on a reread I thought it seems like a bad way to react, the detachment specifically. If she had acknowledged that Viserys was her brother, but that he was also abusive to her it would have seemed like a better reaction.

Edit: Obviously she doesn't have to respond perfectly, it's a horrible situation. Daenerys goes through a lot of traumatic events in the series, and while this far from the worst, I think it's still affects her a lot. Viserys got what was coming to him, but that doesn't change the fact that witnessing his death isn't bad.

[frenin]

1 minute ago, Daemon Sunderland said:

I worded my post badly. I don't remember thinking anything of it the first time, but on a reread I thought it seems like a bad way to react, the detachment specifically. If she had acknowledged that Viserys was her brother, but that he was also abusive to her it would have seemed like a better reaction.

Why? People detach themselves in multiple ways. Dany doesn't want to help and actively resents him but if she does start thinking about how Viserys is her brother, she will be compelled to act, that's how she is. So instead she just alienize Viserys.

Her not doing nothing is in no way a sympton of latent madness. Very few people would have lift a finger to help Viserys after what he had just done, let alone the decade of abusing he had subjected her sister to.

 

4 minutes ago, Daemon Sunderland said:

And I do think this is supposed to tell us something about her mental wellbeing and her actions later on in the series.

Again, holy hell

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, Daemon Sunderland said:

Detachment is definitely a better word for it, thank you. I still think it's unhealthy for her to react this way though. And I do think this is supposed to tell us something about her mental wellbeing and her actions later on in the series.

I’m not sure… I’m not even sure there was any other way for her to deal w/ the situation. 
Realistically, how else could she react, especially in this situation and culture? My take is, she did love him, until the moment she had to detach herself from her feelings and allow the inevitable to happen. As has been discussed, once Viserys did the things he did, there was no saving him. So Dany distancing herself from it seems like not only her only option but even sound in a way, b/c she protects herself. Let’s not forget that she was also under a microscope and one wrong move/reaction could have changed the whole dynamics of her relationship to Drogo and the Dothraki in general. 

5 minutes ago, Daemon Sunderland said:

I agree mostly. I didn't mean the "if something is wrong with Daenerys." thing as judgment, more concern. I just think that her witnessing her brother, who has been with her her whole life, get killed in such a brutal way did affect her.

I agree it did affect her b/c unlike him she’s not a psycho, she’s empathetic, etc. And I do think she wishes it could have been different but there’s nothing to be done now. I think it even plays a part in her mantra later on, ‘if I look back I am lost’. 
But I don’t think his death had/will have lasting consequences in terms of her mental health.

[Daemon Sunderland]

17 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Ding and Dong thought that not trying to save the man who’d just threatened to murder her and her child was evidence of madness.

Which tells you far more about them than about her.

I'm not saying she should try to save him and I'm also not saying there's evidence of madness. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but I'm just very put off by her thinking "He was no dragon, fire doesn't kill a dragon." as a response to seeing her brother die screaming, or even seeing anyone die lie like that.

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, Daemon Sunderland said:

I'm not saying she should try to save him and I'm also not saying there's evidence of madness. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but I'm just very put off by her thinking "He was no dragon, fire doesn't kill a dragon." as a response to seeing her brother die screaming, or even seeing anyone die lie like that.

I think this is Dany trying to deliberately detach herself from the horror she’s witnessing. 

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

All Jon says is 'what kind of brother'. There's nothing to say he's talking about a specific type of relationship.

Yea, but do you honestly think honorable Jon would have viewed it as kin slaying, if he knew that the person in question, tried to murder the son of the his sibling, only moments before his death? I honestly doubt it. All Jon is going off of, is second hand info about a situation he was not involved in and doesn't know the full story of.

[Daemon Sunderland]

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Realistically, how else could she react, especially in this situation and culture? My take is, she did love him, until the moment she had to detach herself from her feelings and allow the inevitable to happen. As has been discussed, once Viserys did the things he did, there was no saving him. So Dany distancing herself from it seems like not only her only option but even sound in a way, b/c she protects herself. Let’s not forget that she was also under a microscope and one wrong move/reaction could have changed the whole dynamics of her relationship to Drogo and the Dothraki in general. 

Yeah I'm less convinced of what I said in my OP now. Thinking about it in the context of Daenerys V, instead of the whole series, I get that she needed to protect herself too.

While I do think she will lean more towards 'madness' in the future (though I doubt she will go full Mad Queen), I'm probably just looking too hard for clues in the earlier books.

I'm also not really taking Viserys's threats seriously, but the characters do, which makes complete sense.

[Craving Peaches]

So far the general consensus seems to have been that there was nothing else Daenerys could have done. I would like to reiterate that I agree. I really don't think anything she said would stop Drogo from killing Viserys. I mean he threatened his wife in front of two other Khals in the sacred city. If he did nothing it would seriously undermine his authority.

And I just want to state again that I do not believe that Daenerys has any moral obligation to help Viserys given how he treated her. The question was whether there was a legal obligation stemming from Viserys' feudal rank. Which I don't believe would apply either, as Khaleesi, Daenerys' loyalty would be to Drogo over her brother. Even if was King of the Seven Kingdoms. They aren't in Westeros, after all.

[Craving Peaches]

6 minutes ago, sifth said:

Yea, but do you honestly think honorable Jon would have viewed it as kin slaying, if he knew that the person in question, tried to murder the son of the his sibling, only moments before his death? I honestly doubt it. All Jon is going off of, is second hand info about a situation he was not involved in and doesn't know the full story of.

I agree that Jon's own good relationship with his siblings would colour his thoughts. I just thought the quote was relevant enough to include because it was a vaguely similar situation. Obviously there are differences but I do believe they were intended to be compared.

[GMantis]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

I agree that Jon's own good relationship with his siblings would colour his thoughts. I just thought the quote was relevant enough to include because it was a vaguely similar situation. Obviously there are differences but I do believe they were intended to be compared.

I imagine that if Jon learns about what happened to Viserys before he met with Daenerys, he would be appalled and this would influence their interaction. We already have a preview of Arianne's reaction to the same information. Though Arianne's not close to her brothers, in fact resenting Quentyn, she was still shocked and began to have doubts about Daenerys - despite needing her as an ally. Jon I imagine would react even stronger.

But Jon's thinking, like that all of characters, is not objective or based on complete information. So we shouidn't judge characters just on what other characters think of them. For example, we know that Jon is right to be contemptuous of Axell Florent, but this is not because Jon was appaled at his behavior, but because we know that Axell was a power-hungry opportunist.

[Oana_Mika]

4 hours ago, Daemon Sunderland said:

Daenerys is heavily in denial during the event, shown by quotes like "this man who had once been her brother" and "He was no dragon, Dany thought, curiously calm. Fire cannot kill a dragon." She clearly doesn't fully process what is happening and still hasn't. It's one of the things that's supposed to make you question if something is wrong with Daenerys.

"this man who had once been her brother" comes right after he threatens to cut her unborn baby out of her womb so IDK why it seems strange to you that she thinks that.

As for "He was no dragon, Dany thought, curiously calm. Fire cannot kill a dragon." I take it as her realising her abuser had never been as powerful and scarry as he seemed and said he was. This reminds me of Tyrion thinking that after all, Tywin did not shit gold.Viserys terrorized Dany her entire life by telling her that he was the dragon, and that she didn’t want to wake the dragon. But here, when Dany sees him die, she finally realizes that this man that terrified her her entire life was never this dragon that he claimed to be. Dany thinking that “he was no dragon” is Dany finally realizing that her abuser was actually a pathetic man.

"His anger was a terrible thing when roused. Viserys called it waking the dragon."

You will not fail me tonight. If you do, it will go hard for you. You don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"

"Dany wanted to run and hide, but her brother was looking at her, and if she displeased him she knew she would wake the dragon."

"Her brother hurt her sometimes, when she woke the dragon."

"Yet that night she dreamt of one. Viserys was hitting her, she was naked, clumsy with fear. She ran from him, but her body seemed thick and ungainly. He struck her again. She stumbled back and fell. You woke the dragon, he screamed, as he kicked her. You woke the dragon, you woke the dragon."

"Viserys slid close to Dany on her silver, dug his fingers into her leg, and said, Please him, sweet sister, or I swear you will see the dragon wake as it has never woken before."

[Oana_Mika]

4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

She also has that weird dream where Viserys starts speaking to her as he's burning, so perhaps she still feels some regret about the whole thing. Even though there was nothing to be done.

Viserys smiled and lowered his sword. That was the saddest thing, the thing that tore at her afterward … the way he smiled. "That was all I wanted," he said. "What was promised." - AGOT, Daenerys V

And that dream I suppose it's at the end of ADWD, where she is starving and dehydrated.

4 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think things weren't always so bad in the past and they had a better relationship. Daenerys does get quite nostalgia - the red door etc.

Viserys had been stupid and vicious, she had come to realize, yet sometimes she missed him all the same. Not the cruel weak man he had become by the end, but the brother who had sometimes let her creep into his bed, the boy who told her tales of the Seven Kingdoms, and talked of how much better their lives would be once he claimed his crown. -ASOS, Daenerys I

 

Murdered. Though his lips never moved, somehow she could hear his voice, whispering in her ear. You never mourned me, sister. It is hard to die unmourned.

"I loved you once."

Once, he said, so bitterly it made her shudder. You were supposed to be my wife, to bear me children with silver hair and purple eyes, to keep the blood of the dragon pure. I took care of you. I taught you who you were. I fed you. I sold our mother's crown to keep you fed.

"You hurt me. You frightened me."-ADWD, Daenerys X

[the trees have eyes]

9 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

But afterwards, should she have done something more to try and at least reduce his suffering?

She could have begged but he has broken a sacred Dothraki taboo and threatened the life of Drogo's child, "The Stallion That Mounts the World".  It's hard to see this not damaging her relationship with Drogo and the Dothraki and as @GMantis said it would cause Drogo to lose face if he indulged her.  Mercy for the man who threatened his son because his wife asked for it?  That's not the Dothraki way, that's not a Khal's way, it's weakness.  It's never going to happen.

9 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

you could argue Daenerys, as his sister and vassal, was obliged to do absolutely everything she could to try and prevent his death or at least minimise his suffering. Had she done everything she could?

Absolutely everything?  No, that encompasses, well, absolutely every possible action, however reasonable or unreasonable.  Feudal rights and obligations are reciprocal though of course heavily weighted in favour of the King / Lord rather than the vassal but by threatening to cut her child out of her belly he has most comprehensively broken the feudal compact.

Does she have a duty at this point?  No.  She might choose to intervene out of familial concern, mercy or forgiveness but Viserys is becoming or already is mad and just signed his own death warrant.

3 hours ago, Daemon Sunderland said:

Detachment is definitely a better word for it, thank you. I still think it's unhealthy for her to react this way though. And I do think this is supposed to tell us something about her mental wellbeing and her actions later on in the series.

I agree. I didn't mean the "if something is wrong with Daenerys." thing as judgment, more concern. I just think that her witnessing her brother, who has been with her her whole life, get killed in such a brutal way did affect her.

It certainly affects her.  For all his many and obvious flaws he has been her companion for all her life and the only family she has ever known.  Her detachment also made me uncomfortable - it reminds me of the morbid curiosity that Sansa felt on seeing Gregor Clegane kill Ser Hugh of The Vale at The Hand's Tourney but Ser Hugh was a stranger while Viserys is Dany's brother.  I think she looks back on Viserys with regret and guilt, not so much guilt that she didn't try harder to save him but that she flourished and grew in strength and influence on the Dothraki Sea while he withered away into an abjectly pitiable creature. 

[Oana_Mika]

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

And I do think she wishes it could have been different but there’s nothing to be done now. I think it even plays a part in her mantra later on, ‘if I look back I am lost’. 

The first time 'if I look back I am lost' appears in her chapters (which is a cope mechanism to keep moving forward) is right after she is told Rhaego died and he was the price for Drogo : 

 

 

Dany turned to the godswife. "You warned me that only death could pay for life. I thought you meant the horse."

"No," Mirri Maz Duur said. "That was a lie you told yourself. You knew the price."

Had she? Had she? If I look back I am lost. "The price was paid," Dany said. "The horse, my child, Quaro and Qotho, Haggo and Cohollo. The price was paid and paid and paid." She rose from her cushions. "Where is Khal Drogo? Show him to me, godswife, maegi, bloodmage, whatever you are. Show me Khal Drogo. Show me what I bought with my son's life." - AGOT, Daenerys IX

[Roswell]

10 hours ago, Daemon Sunderland said:

I don't think she's to blame at all, but I do think the quote from the Jon chapter is supposed to call back to Viserys's Death. Daenerys is heavily in denial during the event, shown by quotes like "this man who had once been her brother" and "He was no dragon, Dany thought, curiously calm. Fire cannot kill a dragon." She clearly doesn't fully process what is happening and still hasn't. It's one of the things that's supposed to make you question if something is wrong with Daenerys.

What sort of woman can stand by idly and watch her own brother being burned alive?

The kind of woman who would make a fine monarch.  She followed Dothraki law instead of intervening.  To intervene is to act partial.  She who will judge should be free from partiality.  Prince Viserys broke the law.  Viserys would be king in Westeros and could do as he wished.  But Dothraki law applies because they are in Vaes Dothrak. 

 

[BlackLightning]

These are the only things that Daenerys could have done to prevent the death of Viserys:

1. get on her knees and beg for her brother's life
2. attempt to physically restrain Drogo
3. become Viserys' human shield

 

 

[Ring3r]

22 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I don't know if there was really much she could have done, given that he broke the only rule in the only place where Dothraki don't kill and enslave each other and everyone else. However from an in-universe (and possibly real world perspective), Daenerys does have a duty to Viserys: he is her king and also her brother. Was there anything she could have done differently, such as:

1. Trying to have him given a less painful death?

2. Trying to convince Drogo to spare him for further humiliation (I don't think that could have worked but should she have at least tried?)

3. Ensuring Viserys was not there in the first place?

Now I think the important question is: Even if nothing she could do would work to help Viserys, should Daenerys still have at least tried? Viserys is a horrible human being, but he was still her brother and one of the few remaining members of House Targaryen.

As some food for thought, I will provide Jon's thoughts on a similar matter.

Edit:

Please do not take this as a defence of Viserys. It is not intended to be, but some people seem to have got the wrong idea. I find Viserys a horrible human being.

Viserys is responsible for his own death. He was abusive, pathetic, refused to respect the culture he lived in, disrespected and physically attacked and threatened his own sister....the list goes on.

Things are relative.  Viserys acted as if the entire world owed him a debt, and there's no indication that anyone close to him liked him.  He was a *C*.  Drogo was totally justified with his reaction.  Honestly I cannot imagine a man not turning to violence if his pregnant wife was being physically threatened.  I think that's probably the only moral, acceptable response.  If you wont defend that, then you are not a man.