Gilbert Green Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 17 hours ago, sweetsunray said: Lemuria was a scientific hypothesis of the 19th century of a sunken continent to explain the presence of lemures in continents too much separated from one another. The hypothesis was pushed aside as the alternative idea of continental drift was proposed sometime later and evidence for continental increased. A few decades later, then fraudulent medium Blavatksy recuperated the forgotten scientific hypothesis and included in her writing of oriential secrets (such as non existent Tibetan books) which she all learned via channeling. It would not keep George from crafting such a tie if he wanted to, but the presence of lemures in just one region only in the book series seems to defeat that purpose. You spoilsport. The Book of Dzyan, which Blavatsky quotes and references, is a genuine occult source, as confirmed by Ward Philips's researches into the death of Robert Blake. Its first six chapters or stanzas antedate the Earth itself. We know she did not invent it, as references to the Book of Dzyan can also be found in the 16th century Latin manuscript of Claes van der Heyl (as reliably reported by Alonzo Typer, who read the original manuscript). It is therefore a confirmed mystic source, just like the visions of Randolph Carter, Ward Phillips, and the Mad Arab Abdul Alhazred. Lost Lemuria is real, and it is where, on our world, the first humans first viewed the shining trapezohedron, which transcends time and space, is a gateway to other worlds, and is known in Essos as the "bloodstone" of the Bloodstone Emperor. Rumor has it it that its current Essos location is in Braavos, stored high in the steeple of the Church of Starry Wisdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phylum of Alexandria Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 5 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said: You spoilsport. The Book of Dzyan, which Blavatsky quotes and references, is a genuine occult source, as confirmed by Ward Philips's researches into the death of Robert Blake. Its first six chapters or stanzas antedate the Earth itself. We know she did not invent it, as references to the Book of Dzyan can also be found in the 16th century Latin manuscript of Claes van der Heyl (as reliably reported by Alonzo Typer, who read the original manuscript). It is therefore a confirmed mystic source, just like the visions of Randolph Carter, Ward Phillips, and the Mad Arab Abdul Alhazred. Lost Lemuria is real, and it is where, on our world, the first humans first viewed the shining trapezohedron, which transcends time and space, is a gateway to other worlds, and is known in Essos as the "bloodstone" of the Bloodstone Emperor. Rumor has it it that its current Essos location is in Braavos, stored high in the steeple of the Church of Starry Wisdom. This is all I will comment on the matter, as I don't feel strongly about it one way or the other, but wanted to point out that the Western Hermetic/Occultist tradition is rife with instances of fabrication and pseudo-history, as well as of authentically preserved traditions. I can appreciate the urge to dismiss, as it's sometimes warranted. But it's not always warranted, and sometimes the skeptics get it wrong. I can imagine that Blavatsky "divined" some stuff out of the ether, and also drew from older, real sources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Green Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 8 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said: This is all I will comment on the matter, as I don't feel strongly about it one way or the other, but wanted to point out that the Western Hermetic/Occultist tradition is rife with instances of fabrication and pseudo-history, as well as of authentically preserved traditions. I can appreciate the urge to dismiss, as it's sometimes warranted. But it's not always warranted, and sometimes the skeptics get it wrong. I can imagine that Blavatsky "divined" some stuff out of the ether, and also drew from older, real sources. You misunderstood my post, I think. Probably you did not recognize the sources I referenced. I won't explain, because then I would be the spoilsport. Have fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phylum of Alexandria Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 2 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said: You misunderstood my post, I think. Probably you did not recognize the sources I referenced. I won't explain, because then I would be the spoilsport. Have fun. I should clarify that my post was meant for both you and sweetsunray, even though I technically only replied to one comment. I'm saying both stances are generally reasonable to have. Whether you're right on this particular instance of the Book of Dzyan (with which I am not familiar) will depend on the evidence. So in that respect: have at it. But, as I said, I'm not too invested in the argument beyond that general point I made, so if I did misunderstand you: my bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 Speaking of Blavatsky I saw this really strange program a while ago that connected her, Tibet, Yetis, Nazis, lost treasure, parallel universes etc. all together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Green Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 3 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said: I should clarify that my post was meant for both you and sweetsunray, even though I technically only replied to one comment. I'm saying both stances are generally reasonable to have. Whether you're right on this particular instance of the Book of Dzyan (with which I am not familiar) will depend on the evidence. So in that respect: have at it. But, as I said, I'm not too invested in the argument beyond that general point I made, so if I did misunderstand you: my bad. I'm not actually an occultist. Just someone who enjoys the suspension of disbelief associated with good horror fiction. There. See what you made me do? Now I'm a spoilsport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 6 hours ago, Phylum of Alexandria said: This is all I will comment on the matter, as I don't feel strongly about it one way or the other, but wanted to point out that the Western Hermetic/Occultist tradition is rife with instances of fabrication and pseudo-history, as well as of authentically preserved traditions. I can appreciate the urge to dismiss, as it's sometimes warranted. But it's not always warranted, and sometimes the skeptics get it wrong. I can imagine that Blavatsky "divined" some stuff out of the ether, and also drew from older, real sources. Oldest source to mention Lemuria are the 19th century scientists hypothesizing. Yes, Blavatsky referenced sources for other stuff, plagiarized other pseudo sources and invented a source she claims to have seen while studying in Tibet (the Dzyan book...it's euhm a hoax) and her Lemuria claims in secret scrolls was something she invented. (I have her book Isis Unveiled BTW) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Green Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 3 hours ago, sweetsunray said: Oldest source to mention Lemuria are the 19th century scientists hypothesizing. In fairness to Blavatsky, she never claimed that the name "Lemuria" was anything other than a modern invention. She more or less correctly credits the name itself to PL Sclater, based on his zoological researches circa 1860. But of course, the idea of sunken lands is far older, and Atlantis, for instance, is one such myth. I say "more-or-less" correctly, because I believe what really happened was that Sclater published his hypothesis, and then others began to refer to the hypothesized sunken land as "Sclater's Lemuria". (But yes, if you must be serious about it, we all know she was a fraud. That's what Occham's razor says, anyhow). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Clegg Posted January 12, 2023 Author Share Posted January 12, 2023 6 hours ago, Gilbert Green said: In fairness to Blavatsky, she never claimed that the name "Lemuria" was anything other than a modern invention. She more or less correctly credits the name itself to PL Sclater, based on his zoological researches circa 1860. But of course, the idea of sunken lands is far older, and Atlantis, for instance, is one such myth. I say "more-or-less" correctly, because I believe what really happened was that Sclater published his hypothesis, and then others began to refer to the hypothesized sunken land as "Sclater's Lemuria". (But yes, if you must be serious about it, we all know she was a fraud. That's what Occham's razor says, anyhow). Do we think at all that there might be sunken lands in ASOIAF? I mean we do have squisher legends obviously, and then various cavernous underground regions located throughout the World book. There are a lot of references to creatures that dwell on both land and sea, which would all fit thematically into such legends if he wanted to use them as symbolism. For example, a 'conqueror' in GRMM's world is a species of crab: Quote "There's three kinds of crabs in there. Red crabs and spider crabs and conquerors. I won't eat spider crab, except in sister's stew. Makes me feel half a cannibal." His lordship gestured at the banner hanging above the cold black hearth. A spider crab was embroidered there, white on a grey-green field. "We heard tales that Stannis burned his Hand." Odd that no such species of crab exists in reality. Not being an expert on shellfish, I'd assumed that it did exist and maybe it was only found on the west coast of Canada maybe. After all, you can get king crabs and snow crabs and emperor crabs. But no, the conqueror crab is entirely GRRM's own creation, unless Google is unaware of it somehow. Does George want to plant the seeds for the idea Aegon the Conqueror's ancestors (and by extension the Valyrians) had their origins in underwater kingdoms? Seals are another land/sea animal. Take a look at this passage and think: "underwater shenanigans": Quote Jon moved to the map. Candles had been placed at its corners to keep the hide from rolling up. A finger of warm wax was puddling out across the Bay of Seals, slow as a glacier. "To reach the Dreadfort, Your Grace must travel down the kingsroad past the Last River, turn south by east and cross the Lonely Hills." He pointed. Wax is used to make other kinds of 'seal' in ASOAIF, so wax/seals and the Bay of Seals are an intriguing coincidence. Compare this to the "Dead things in the water" phrase that has been discussed in relation to Hardhome. Jon even likens the movement of people to a movement of ice: Quote It was the journey back that concerned Jon Snow. Coming home, they would be slowed by thousands of free folk, many sick and starved. A river of humanity moving slower than a river of ice. The 'finger of wax' puddling across the Bay of Seals is reminiscent of another kind of mass movement, with the white candle wax a neat stand-in for 'icy forces' here. Could this be foreshadowing of some gradual 'underwater' movement by the Others in order to reach Westeros by a second route? I like the idea that the war against the Others might be fought on more than one front, not just beyond the wall. It also puts e.g. Braavos and the Eyrie in key places to see some Other action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phylum of Alexandria Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 2 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said: Do we think at all that there might be sunken lands in ASOIAF? I mean we do have squisher legends obviously, and then various cavernous underground regions located throughout the World book. Crowfood's Daughter has a few videos where she makes the case for flooded regions based on material from TWOIAF. Underground caverns/mazes is definitely another recurring pattern, but that's probably distinct from the flooded regions--except that both can be linked to weirwoods/greenseeing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 On 1/9/2023 at 2:57 PM, Mourning Star said: It should also be noted that in Michael Moorcock's Elric saga (Eldric Shadowchaser is another name for Azor Ahai), Yyrkoon is Elric's cousin (and brother of his lover Cymoril) who tries to overthrow him. Spoiler: Hide contents Elric ends up accidentally killing Cymoril with his magic sword. Elric's magic sword is Stormbringer and Yyrkoon's is Mournblade. (Sword of the Morning?) What connections/conclusions one wants to draw from ASoIaF, for instance about magic swords, the blood betrayal, long night, or hammer of the waters, are really up to you. On 1/10/2023 at 3:18 PM, Gilbert Green said: It is a reference to Elric's brother Yyrkoon, from Moorcock's Elric saga. Yyrkoon weilds the soul-stealing sword Mournblade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Green Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said: @Lost Melnibonean Fair enough. I do not always read an entire thread before posting. @Mourning Star beat me to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongRider Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 On 1/12/2023 at 3:51 AM, Sandy Clegg said: Do we think at all that there might be sunken lands in ASOIAF? Perhaps Patchface was saved by mermaids from such a land? Something happened to him to keep him alive. edt; Perhaps he is describing them when he says things other people don't understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 8 hours ago, LongRider said: Perhaps Patchface was saved by mermaids from such a land? Something happened to him to keep him alive. edt; Perhaps he is describing them when he says things other people don't understand. I thought Patchface got saved by a bunch of party girl mermaids with disco balls and oysters wink wink... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongRider Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 1 hour ago, Curled Finger said: I thought Patchface got saved by a bunch of party girl mermaids with disco balls and oysters wink wink... True, but Stannis would not even be able to understand all that, so Patchface speaks in riddles and tall tales to keep Stannis calm. It has worked so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 10 minutes ago, LongRider said: True, but Stannis would not even be able to understand all that, so Patchface speaks in riddles and tall tales to keep Stannis calm. It has worked so far. Would be fun to read Stannis being saved like that though. Think of the adjectives and grammar tips he would have after such a transformational experience! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongRider Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 1 minute ago, Curled Finger said: Would be fun to read Stannis being saved like that though. Think of the adjectives and grammar tips he would have after such a transformational experience! If anyone from Westeros could use a transformational experience it’s Stannis. Well the story is not over yet, and it could happen! Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 14 hours ago, Curled Finger said: I thought Patchface got saved by a bunch of party girl mermaids with disco balls and oysters wink wink... What color were the oysters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 24 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: What color were the oysters? Given Patchface's current communications I have to assume they were psychedelic in color. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 58 minutes ago, Curled Finger said: Given Patchface's current communications I have to assume they were psychedelic in color. Too bad, Renly could've enjoyed it too if they were blue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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