The Maesters Poisoned the Kings

[Finley McLeod]

Archmaester Marwyn told Samwell that the maesters had been poisoning the "dragons."  I think he meant the maesters were poisoning the Targaryens.  The Dragon Lords of Valyria, including the Targaryens, were not suffering from mental health issues.  They could not have controlled their dragons if they were. 

The maesters do not trust Marwyn's family.  He could be a Targ bastard, Blackfyre,  Velaryon, or Celtigar.  The maesters are ignorant and do not know about the White Walkers.  If they did they would know the importance of the dragons.  Perhaps they know and are serving the White Walkers. 

[Craving Peaches]

3 hours ago, Finley McLeod said:

The Dragon Lords of Valyria, including the Targaryens, were not suffering from mental health issues.  They could not have controlled their dragons if they were. 

Unless they were completely psychotic they could. If they were suffering from the usual 'Targaryen Madness' of being cruel and narcissistic then they definitely could have.

All of the issues the Targaryens are suffering from can easily be attributed to the effects of inbreeding and meddling in magical matters they shouldn't have, rather than some huge conspiracy of the Maesters to poison them all.

[Kierria]

12 hours ago, Finley McLeod said:

Archmaester Marwyn told Samwell that the maesters had been poisoning the "dragons."  I think he meant the maesters were poisoning the Targaryens.

We heard from Marwyn and Barbrey Dustin.  The maesters were up to no good.  This has to be it. 

[Craving Peaches]

55 minutes ago, Kierria said:

We heard from Marwyn and Barbrey Dustin.  The maesters were up to no good.  This has to be it

So we have the word of one bitter, spiteful Woman and someone who's claims don't actually line up with what we see the Maesters do. If they're so Anti-Magic then why is Marwyn allowed to go around doing whatever?

[BalerionTheCat]

Their mental madness comes from the magic linking them to the dragons. They are as cruel as their dragons. Plus the inbreeding. And the belief they are above other men and can do whatever they want.

There are more efficient poisons to kill someone.

[Corvo the Crow]

.

[Sandy Clegg]

1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Their mental madness comes from the magic linking them to the dragons. They are as cruel as their dragons. Plus the inbreeding. And the belief they are above other men and can do whatever they want.

There are more efficient poisons to kill someone.

This is certainly a likely explanation, but I wonder if GRRM will ever give us a definitive answer to this issue of the Targaryen 'madness'. It's never going to be clearly resolved by looking at the Maester's histories as we never meet or hear about any Targaryens other than from the line of Aegon the Conqueror, 300 years ago. From an early stage, Aegon brought Archmaesters to serve him in his court, and it's possible they had some influence on the Targaryen 'madness', via potions or manipulation etc. 

Regardless of whether we believe in Maester conspiracies, however, what we don't have is an account of the mental stability of a 'control group' -  of Targaryens from a time of 'pre-Maester influence'. For all we know, this mental instability could have stemmed from 'Westerosi' effects as much as dragon magic.

[Mordred]

The grey rats were sabotaging the reign of the dragons.  The highest ranking members of the order are being manipulated by the greenseers.  They don't know it but they're helping the Others. 

[Ring3r]

Yeah I don't think the maesters were plotting like that.

There's only two characters in the whole story who seem to think so, and they're both bitter outcasts.

It's entirely possible, and I think the most likely is that they were responsible for the last few dragons not growing/living long....but honestly I think that was just a symptom of fire magic slowly leaving the world after the Doom.

[BalerionTheCat]

On 10/23/2022 at 10:28 PM, Sandy Clegg said:

I wonder if GRRM will ever give us a definitive answer to this issue of the Targaryen 'madness'

Yes. I think GRRM will leave plenty of things for debate. Why the Targaryen are so frequently insane would be one of them.

For the question of whether a faction of the Citadel would want to kill the dragons, and why, we may have the answer at some point. My guess is, the maesters wanted to avoid the return of the dragons, because it would herald the return of the Others and the Long Night. I believe someone did something for it to not happen at Summerhall. The D&E, if finished, could give us some answer. Possibly not just the maesters where in this. The Faceless Men for example..

By the same logic, they could also have wanted to kill or prevent the Prince that was Promised.

On 10/23/2022 at 10:28 PM, Sandy Clegg said:

Regardless of whether we believe in Maester conspiracies, however, what we don't have is an account of the mental stability of a 'control group' -  of Targaryens from a time of 'pre-Maester influence'.

We don't know much about the games of power in Valyria. But I believe it was also a lot of Fire and Blood.

[Darth Sidious]

On 10/23/2022 at 12:35 AM, Finley McLeod said:

Archmaester Marwyn told Samwell that the maesters had been poisoning the "dragons."  I think he meant the maesters were poisoning the Targaryens.  The Dragon Lords of Valyria, including the Targaryens, were not suffering from mental health issues.  They could not have controlled their dragons if they were. 

The maesters do not trust Marwyn's family.  He could be a Targ bastard, Blackfyre,  Velaryon, or Celtigar.  The maesters are ignorant and do not know about the White Walkers.  If they did they would know the importance of the dragons.  Perhaps they know and are serving the White Walkers. 

The maesters were drugging the Targaryen kings. The church of the 7 was also involved. Maegor should have been more thorough and eradicated those vermin. 

[Craving Peaches]

6 hours ago, Darth Sidious said:

The church of the 7 was also involved.

Where's the evidence for that?

6 hours ago, Darth Sidious said:

Maegor should have been more thorough and eradicated those vermin. 

Then he'd have to have killed most of the continent. The Targaryen kingdom would cease to exist long before that point was reached. If Maegor was going to kill them all anyway they would fight to the very last breath to destroy everything Targaryen they can find.

[Moiraine Sedai]

The leaders of the citadel were brainwashing their maesters to oppose the Targaryens. I would not be at all surprised if they are part of a cult.  Aegon the Conqueror was on a mission to prepare his family to fight the Others. That makes those who were undermining his successors the real villains.  

[Tygett Lannister]

Or maybe Targaryens were weird because of inbreeding and didn't need to be poisoned?

[Craving Peaches]

38 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Aegon the Conqueror was on a mission to prepare his family to fight the Others. That makes those who were undermining his successors the real villains.

If Aegon was so concerned about the Others, why did he spend three years razing Dornish settlements, and why did he not take Argillac up on his offer which would have resulted in him gaining a large chunk of land with no bloodshed?

[Aebram]

For reference, here's the relevant dialogue.

Quote

Archmaester Marwyn shrugged. “Perhaps it’s good that he [Maester Aemon] died before he got to Oldtown. Elsewise the grey sheep might have had to kill him, and that would have made the poor old dears wring their wrinkled hands.”

“Kill him?” Sam said, shocked. “Why?”

“If I tell you, they may need to kill you too.” Marywn smiled a ghastly smile, the juice of the sourleaf running red between his teeth. “Who do you think killed all the dragons the last time around? Gallant dragonslayers armed with swords?” He spat. “The world the Citadel is building has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons. Ask yourself why Aemon Targaryen was allowed to waste his life upon the Wall, when by rights he should have been raised to archmaester. His blood was why. He could not be trusted. No more than I can.”  (AFFC 45). 

Once again, the Martin shows himself to be a master of ambiguity.  For the most part, Marwyn's words could apply to either dragons -- the creatures -- or Targaryens.  However, he does mention "dragonslayers," and that's a word that we've only seen applied to the creatures.

Regarding Marwyn's ancestry, I'll point out that saying "I'm not trustworthy" is not the same as saying "the Maesters don't trust me."  So I don't consider this to be strong evidence that he has any Targaryen blood.

[James West]

On 10/23/2022 at 12:35 AM, Finley McLeod said:

Archmaester Marwyn told Samwell that the maesters had been poisoning the "dragons."  I think he meant the maesters were poisoning the Targaryens.  The Dragon Lords of Valyria, including the Targaryens, were not suffering from mental health issues.  They could not have controlled their dragons if they were. 

The maesters do not trust Marwyn's family.  He could be a Targ bastard, Blackfyre,  Velaryon, or Celtigar.  The maesters are ignorant and do not know about the White Walkers.  If they did they would know the importance of the dragons.  Perhaps they know and are serving the White Walkers. 

Dragons cook their food. Not rare, not medium, but well-done.  Poisons will not survive cooking.  Marwyn meant the Targaryen humans.  The ones on the throne and the babies.  That makes the Citadels guilty of a long line of treason dating back 300 years.  I would raid the Citadel and check their recorded history.  Put to death all the ones who are still alive from the reign of King Aerys II and are guilty of plotting against the Targaryens.  

[Sandy Clegg]

9 hours ago, Aebram said:

Regarding Marwyn's ancestry, I'll point out that saying "I'm not trustworthy" is not the same as saying "the Maesters don't trust me."  So I don't consider this to be strong evidence that he has any Targaryen blood.

Something about Marwyn that I think people have missed is that his other nickname, The Mastiff, may not refer to a dog but rather a species of bat. The red sour leaf juice around his teeth is also symbolic of bats and blood-sucking, and ties in with some of his more nefarious dealings, in the undercity and black brothels. Pate even reflects that Marwyn has the look of someone "who wants to bite you." So perhaps his intentions are not entirely honourable?

[Mourning Star]

It’s a great topic for speculation.

I would point out a few, I think, interesting details.

The Order of Maesters was founded at the same time as the Nights Watch, and shares seemingly similar vows.

Marwyn, for all the secrets he might know, makes what the readers know is an obvious blunder in his statement to Sam. Aemon was not forced to spend his life on the Wall because of some conspiracy. Aemon was quietly offered the crown, but choose the Nights Watch when Egg took the throne.

This tells us that either he is lying, or just wrong. Either way it means we have to doubt the rest of his claim here.

One also might consider that many Targaryen dragons died at the hands of bot dragon slayers and other dragons. I think it may be possible that Marwyn is referring to the Doom of Valyria.

[Rondo]

It was a battle for influence.  The magic and might of the Targaryens versus the religion of the maesters, the Seven.  There was little in the way of separation of the church and the state.  There was even less separation between "science" and religion.  Unity of Westeros under the rulership of a Targaryen monarch is the salvation.  So that would make treasons against the Targaryens an act of villainy and a threat to all of the living.