Show partiality [possible spoilers]

[cytherea]

I have seen people comment on it, and personally, I do agree with them, the portrayal of one side of the dance seems to be more favoured than the other. I don't think there is a right side of the dance, nor do I believe it was ever about right and wrong, they are all grey characters, and their duality is something I dearly appreciate in characters and stories. House of the dragon is about who's your favourite poor little meow meow, in the end.

What are your thoughts on the matter? Do you think production favoured someone more than others, that everyone got their right share?

[HTN02]

I always read the Dance as something that you wanted the Blacks to win, but by the time the Blacks where winning, you were not cheering for them anymore.

Aegon II never was a pleasant man, not on paper, not in the series.

 

[C.T. Phipps]

It's only partiality if you don't think the Greens were scum who deserved to be viewed that way.

[bendean3]

I mean that’s how it was written as well tbh. The blacks didn’t start becoming unlikable until the later parts of the dance 

[cytherea]

Personally what bothered me the most was the decharacterization of a few of the blacks. There were so many things that just felt off the whole time. And knowing how they cut scenes of characters like Daemon acting like actual people with feelings gave me eeeeeeh feelings. For me it looked like in his case that was cut off so they could just do the choking scene without it looking too ooc (and it still did).

[Daemon of the Blacks]

22 hours ago, bendean3 said:

I mean that’s how it was written as well tbh. The blacks didn’t start becoming unlikable until the later parts of the dance 

I think it helps for the Blacks that a lot of their downward spiral hinged on Rhaenrya going completely loony while most of her retainers were either in opposition to it like Corlys, or not too far away from Kingslanding to be complicit.

[bendean3]

3 hours ago, Daemon of the Blacks said:

I think it helps for the Blacks that a lot of their downward spiral hinged on Rhaenrya going completely loony while most of her retainers were either in opposition to it like Corlys, or not too far away from Kingslanding to be complicit.

Yea. That’s a good point. Even Daemon has become pretty likable in his older age at that point. But, Rhaenrya has absolutely lost the the plot at that point as you mentioned 

[Farerb]

I think episode 7 was the best example of this. Rhaenyra was in the wrong, Aemond literally lost his eye because of a mere insult (which was true), but Rhaenyra manipulates the situation to her benefit because she knows her father will side with her. Only then Alicent gets crazy in a way you can't really be sympathetic to her.

[Daemon of the Blacks]

5 hours ago, Farerb said:

I think episode 7 was the best example of this. Rhaenyra was in the wrong, Aemond literally lost his eye because of a mere insult (which was true), but Rhaenyra manipulates the situation to her benefit because she knows her father will side with her. Only then Alicent gets crazy in a way you can't really be sympathetic to her.

At that point Aemond was also waving a rock around shouting how he was going to murder Jace. So I'm not sure its just over an insult.

That said Rhaeenyra wanting her 10 year old recently mutilated brother tortured definitely reflects very poorly on her. 

[Annara Snow]

On 10/23/2022 at 8:37 AM, cytherea said:

I have seen people comment on it, and personally, I do agree with them, the portrayal of one side of the dance seems to be more favoured than the other. I don't think there is a right side of the dance, nor do I believe it was ever about right and wrong, they are all grey characters, and their duality is something I dearly appreciate in characters and stories. House of the dragon is about who's your favourite poor little meow meow, in the end.

What are your thoughts on the matter? Do you think production favoured someone more than others, that everyone got their right share?

Comment on what?

The fact that I don't even know who you mean says it all, LOL

I keep seeing takes on Twitter by Black stans complaining the Greens are whitewashed and Green stans complaining tha the Blacks are whitewashed.

The first time I read The Princess and the Queen, I remember my thought process went from being on the Blacks side (you have to be, at the beginning) to going "oh nope, I'm not supporting these people" when Blood and Cheese happened, and then being neutral. They all do horrible things and you can't support anyone, you just watch it as afascinating trainwreck you can't avert your eyes from.

On the show, I started as mildly Black fan, but it took me around episode 7 to become neutral, so I guess even earlier. But a big part of that were the obnoxious Black stans on Twitter. Both sides have a portion of annoying fans but it always seems there are more Team Black ones - maybe because there are more Team Black stans in general, or because the Blacks initially seem like 'the good guys' - well, more so than the Greens, at least - and a lot of young teenagers and other fans who want a black and white story hop on the bandwagon thinking they're the Starks and the Greens are the Lannisters... Because the main series is far less grey than the Fance, if we're honest. 

[cytherea]

11 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

The fact that I don't even know who you mean says it all, LOL

I kept it neutral to either side on purpose, I've seen comments come across for partiality on both. Genuinely wanted to know what it felt like for other people who were watching, if it felt like one side of the scale was heavier than the other, regardless of my own opinion on the matter :>

[dsjj251]

On 10/26/2022 at 5:34 AM, Daemon of the Blacks said:

At that point Aemond was also waving a rock around shouting how he was going to murder Jace. So I'm not sure its just over an insult.

That said Rhaeenyra wanting her 10 year old recently mutilated brother tortured definitely reflects very poorly on her. 

merged book and show logic here. 

Dragons belong to the individual families, they arent there to be claimed  by just anyone , even if it is another Valyrian  family(per jaehaerys) . So Aemond stole Vhagar. And Jace/Luce had every right to exact justice  in the name of their cousins as they are heirs to Dragonstone and Driftmark, Rhaenyra was technically the highest authority there as Lady of Dragonstone.

And yes, calling Jace and Luce bastards is treason in universe, 

[dsjj251]

On 10/23/2022 at 1:37 AM, cytherea said:

I have seen people comment on it, and personally, I do agree with them, the portrayal of one side of the dance seems to be more favoured than the other. I don't think there is a right side of the dance, nor do I believe it was ever about right and wrong, they are all grey characters, and their duality is something I dearly appreciate in characters and stories. House of the dragon is about who's your favourite poor little meow meow, in the end.

What are your thoughts on the matter? Do you think production favoured someone more than others, that everyone got their right share?

When "The Princess and the Queen" and "The Rouge Prince" were released almost 10 years ago, I found it weird so many people viewed the ending as a Green victory, obviously Fire and Blood completely clarified this , but some how House of the Dragon  has created this now ongoing just as weird debate about who is the good guy or if everyone is shades of grey.

 

In short, The blacks are indeed the good guys, its not even questionable. Fire and Blood is also written that way. 

Both versions of the dance say that the Greens set the riverlands on fire and killed thousands, far worse than anything people can claim the Blacks did. 

 

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

The books were always partial to the blacks, it’s just annoying how the showrunners (and GRRM) talk up how there are no heroes or villains in this story when there clearly are.

[Annara Snow]

13 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

merged book and show logic here. 

Dragons belong to the individual families, they arent there to be claimed  by just anyone , even if it is another Valyrian  family(per jaehaerys) . So Aemond stole Vhagar. And Jace/Luce had every right to exact justice  in the name of their cousins as they are heirs to Dragonstone and Driftmark, Rhaenyra was technically the highest authority there as Lady of Dragonstone.

What the hell are you talking about?! If dragons "belong" to anyone (which is questionable, since they have their own mind!), it's to Targaryens in general, not to Laena and Daemon and their kids. Once they are riderless, you can try to claim them. If they accept you, good for you. If not, they will probably burn you.

And they are sure as hell don't get passed as heirlooms from parent to child. In fact, there has been just one known case of a child riding their parent's dragon - Maegor riding Balerion, and that wasn't because he took him as heirloom, but because Maegor was bold enough to go and claim him.

Rhaenys' dragon Meleys used to be ridden by Princess Alyssa, mother of Viserys and Daemon.

Daemon's dragon Caraxes used to be ridden by Prince Aemon, Rhaenys' father.

Vhagar herself used to be ridden by Visenya and then Prince Baelon (father of Viserys and Daemon) and then Laena.

By your logic, Rhaenys "stole" Meleys from Viserys and Daemon, Daemon "stole" Caraxes from Rhaenys' kids . Even by your own (wrong) logic, Aemond had more right to Vhagar than Rhaena, since his grandfather Prince Baelon was her rider before Laena. (Visenya has no direct descendants.)

Aemond did nothing wrong when he claimed Vhagar, and those kids had absolutely no business stopping him from going back to the castle, ganging up on him 4:1 and attacking him.

If Rhaena had tried to claim Vhagar, she may have gotten burned for all we know. But she's spent the last 6 years on Dragonstone and she never tried to claim Vermithor or Silverwing, which tells me she isn't that bold as her mother or Aemond. And maybe Daemon has explained to her how dangerous it is to claim an adult older dragon you haven't bonded before.

Also, Jace and Luke had no authority, you just made that up. And the highest authority is Viserys, as the king.
 

Quote

And yes, calling Jace and Luce bastards is treason in universe, 

It's treason according to Viserys. Passing illegitimate children as legitimate heirs to the throne is treason in universe, so if you're going to care about what is treason in universe - Rhaenyra has committed it, so has Laenor (and Harwin, but he is dead) and Jace, since the moment he realized Harwin was his father.

Mutilating a crown prince would also be a very severely punishable offence, but things get complicated when it's by another crown prince. A commoner would get mutilated just for hitting a Targaryen prince. For another prince, I don't know, they could've grounded him? Banned dragonriding for a while? At least ask for an apology? But nope, Viserys showed who he did and didn't care about by not even showing any concern for his son who had just lost an eye, and instead acting like bastard insults were the most important thing there. (And no one had brought them up in front of the throne room until Rhaenyra did.)

[Annara Snow]

6 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The books were always partial to the blacks, it’s just annoying how the showrunners (and GRRM) talk up how there are no heroes or villains in this story when there clearly are.

It's annoying how  part of the fandom pretends that the Greens are villains and that the Blacks are 'heroes', when they clearly aren't. If there are villains, then both sides are villainous.

I dont know what books you read. It was clear in the books that both sides were selfish Targaryen royals fighting for the throne and doing ruthless and horrible things. Iwas fed up with all of them and just felt sorry for the smallfolk and the dragons for going extinct.

Who writes something as horrible as Blood and Cheese early on in the story and then expects the readers to root for the people responsible for it?

This new "the Greens were the villains in the books and the Blacks heroes" discourse is so weird. I've never heard that before HotD started and the "Targ stans" on Twitter decided to treat Rhaenyra as the new Daenaerys and pretend that this is story with "heroes vs villains", when it's clearly not and never was.

[dsjj251]

5 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

What the hell are you talking about?! If dragons "belong" to anyone (which is questionable, since they have their own mind!), it's to Targaryens in general, not to Laena and Daemon and their kids. Once they are riderless, you can try to claim them. If they accept you, good for you. If not, they will probably burn you

 

Except, in the Fire and Blood, the power of House Velaryon because of its ownership of dragons is discussed 3 times . You dont have to agree with me on the subject, but its clear in universe that dragons are see as property of the House

5 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Rhaenys' dragon Meleys used to be ridden by Princess Alyssa, mother of Viserys and Daemon.

Daemon's dragon Caraxes used to be ridden by Prince Aemon, Rhaenys' father.

Vhagar herself used to be ridden by Visenya and then Prince Baelon (father of Viserys and Daemon) and then Laena.

By your logic, Rhaenys "stole" Meleys from Viserys and Daemon, Daemon "stole" Caraxes from Rhaenys' kids . Even by your own (wrong) logic, Aemond had more right to Vhagar than Rhaena, since his grandfather Prince Baelon was her rider before Laena. (Visenya has no direct descendants.)

Aemond did nothing wrong when he claimed Vhagar, and those kids had absolutely no business stopping him from going back to the castle, ganging up on him 4:1 and attacking him.

Rhaenys was a member of House Targaryen. So were everyone else you named.  We dont have  a change of Houses until Laena claims Vhagar , and that was during Viserys's reign.

 

5 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

 

Also, Jace and Luke had no authority, you just made that up. And the highest authority is Viserys, as the king.
 

The Lord/Lady of Dragonstone has dominion over all the islands of Blackwater Bay and as such can pass judgement.

THe right of pit and gallows has its own page here on the wiki.

 https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Right_of_pit_and_gallows#:~:text=The right of pit and,leave by their liege lord.

 

5 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

It's treason according to Viserys. Passing illegitimate children as legitimate heirs to the throne is treason in universe, so if you're going to care about what is treason in universe - Rhaenyra has committed it, so has Laenor (and Harwin, but he is dead) and Jace, since the moment he realized Harwin was his father.

We arent arguing who all is guilty, we are arguing who stupidly said it outloud and removed all doubt. 

 

5 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

Mutilating a crown prince would also be a very severely punishable offence, but things get complicated when it's by another crown prince.

 

"crown prince" means direct heir to the throne, that means Rhaenyra , and then by extension Jace.  Not Aemond. 

5 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

 

A commoner would get mutilated just for hitting a Targaryen prince. For another prince, I don't know, they could've grounded him? Banned dragonriding for a while? At least ask for an apology? But nope, Viserys showed who he did and didn't care about by not even showing any concern for his son who had just lost an eye, and instead acting like bastard insults were the most important thing there. (And no one had brought them up in front of the throne room until Rhaenyra did.)

you are arguing the narrative rather than the actual fight. (the girls look the same so im probably mixing the names up)

Baela pushed Aemond, and he slung her to the ground, Rhaena then defended her sister by slapping him, he punched her to the ground. He then said he would feed them to his dragon. Then and only then did Jace hit him. 

You can argue Baela(Rhaena??) started it but it was just a push, he chose to escalate it and threaten death... not once but 3 times. 

 

your argument is solely based on Rhaenyra arguing that they were called bastards, but indeed the fight was because Aemond threw one girl to the ground and punched the other and then threatened to have them eaten. 

 

 

As for bastards, It was brought up in show by Alicent to VIserys and said openly in the courtyard by others off screen, so no, Rhaenyra wasnt the first to say it. 

[dsjj251]

5 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

It's annoying how  part of the fandom pretends that the Greens are villains and that the Blacks are 'heroes', when they clearly aren't. If there are villains, then both sides are villainous.

I dont know what books you read. It was clear in the books that both sides were selfish Targaryen royals fighting for the throne and doing ruthless and horrible things. Iwas fed up with all of them and just felt sorry for the smallfolk and the dragons for going extinct.

Who writes something as horrible as Blood and Cheese early on in the story and then expects the readers to root for the people responsible for it?

This new "the Greens were the villains in the books and the Blacks heroes" discourse is so weird. I've never heard that before HotD started and the "Targ stans" on Twitter decided to treat Rhaenyra as the new Daenaerys and pretend that this is story with "heroes vs villains", when it's clearly not and never was.

Its not new and its not weird.

we can choose to not believe the unreliable narrator when it comes to what the Greens thought of Rhaenyra and wishing death on her in child birth, but that doesnt change that the greens took the throne and killed Rhaenyra supporters before there even was a war, Aemond killed Luce and that Blood and Cheese is retaliation for that.

 

like, i get the idea of "fandom", but we are indeed told Rhaenyra's side is the one we should be cheering for.  As i said, even in your own post, the "Both sides did horrible things" literally only has one example, and its in retaliation for her own son dying. 

[SeanF]

14 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

It's annoying how  part of the fandom pretends that the Greens are villains and that the Blacks are 'heroes', when they clearly aren't. If there are villains, then both sides are villainous.

I dont know what books you read. It was clear in the books that both sides were selfish Targaryen royals fighting for the throne and doing ruthless and horrible things. Iwas fed up with all of them and just felt sorry for the smallfolk and the dragons for going extinct.

Who writes something as horrible as Blood and Cheese early on in the story and then expects the readers to root for the people responsible for it?

This new "the Greens were the villains in the books and the Blacks heroes" discourse is so weird. I've never heard that before HotD started and the "Targ stans" on Twitter decided to treat Rhaenyra as the new Daenaerys and pretend that this is story with "heroes vs villains", when it's clearly not and never was.

Both sides committed atrocities.  Neither can claim ius in bello.

But, in terms of ius ad bellum, the Greens were plainly in the wrong, here.  They resorted immediately to violence, and fraud, and constantly escalated the conflict.  The responsibility for war rests with them.

[Mystical]

Really not that hard to understand why a large portion of the viewers side with Team Black rather than Green. And the show is not helping matters in some regards. However I would blame the viewing audience more than the show. You have Rhaenyra's Arya to Alicent's Sansa and we all know who the audience favors and the different standards applied to them. Viserys' Ned only cares about his Arya and doesn't give a damn about Sansa which gives people the impression that Arya is right. Team Green has a Tywin/LF mix with Otto and a LF with Larys, both of whom are basically villains. Team Black has their own Spike (Buffy reference), by the first episode no one was stanning Daemon but by episode 3 everyone was in love (Spike effect has set in). The guy could literally rape or try to rape Rhaenyra and it wouldn't matter. Criston Cole was pretty and cool while on Rhaenyra's side, now he's just a little petty bitch while on Alicent's. And of course, Rheanyra is the rightful heir according to the king.

On top of that, Alicent's children are all pieces of shit (except Heleana) while Rhaenyra's are model citizens. Because of the time skips, we don't see why it ended up that way. Why you have a caring mother who gives her children a worthy education on one side and one who seems to have royally screwed up her kids and given them no royal education (except for fight training and Aemond seems to have taught himself everything 'kingly'). Team Green also wants to put the worst of the children, Aegon, on the throne. Viewers are not gonna get behind Joffrey 2.0. The only one on Team Green people will get behind is Aemond and that's because he's another Spike.

Of course these are surface readings of the situation mixed with modern standards and thinking. And while the show tries every now and then to remind people that this isn't our modern times, it doesn't matter to most viewers. It doesn't matter to people that the show has actually shown that Rhaenyra wouldn't make a good queen. It also doesn't help that the show turns a lot of events into 'accidents' rather than characters making choices, thereby stripping their agency away and making it easier to forgive those events. And the writers are pussies who are afraid to piss off a fringe minority who might scream 'you can't kill gay characters' (as a result it whitewashes certain characters). They are tiptoeing around a lot of modern 'sensitive' subjects. And hearing them talk about their show is confusing to say the least. Guess time will tell with what happens in the show.

At the end of the day, the character archetypes on Team Black appeal to people (general audience) more than the ones on Team Green. Which gives Team Black a lot of leeway and none to Team Green. And Rhaenyra is the rightful heir (according to Viserys) and Team Green are usurpers. No one is going to remember that Rhaenys could have prevented the entire war (and Lucerys' death) with a simple 'dracarys', considering they already forgot about it by the next episode. All the people she killed when she burst out would at least then have been an 'acceptable' loss that prevented a war where thousands would die. But nope, they died for nothing, not that anyone making the show, in the show or most of the audience care.