Ignorance Kills

[Aline de Gavrillac]

I credit the excitement for the show for the increased activity on the forums.  The number of interesting topics have gone up in recent weeks.  I see new ideas on each visit.  The misfortunes of Viserys, Micah, Eddard, Illyn Payne, Daenerys, and Janos can all be traced to a failure to understand the surroundings.  

1. Prince Viserys lacked an understanding of the Dothraki.  He did not learn their language and was oblivious to their laws.  His ignorance caused his death.  
2. Arya Stark has played the game Come Into My Castle.  She should know the enemies are all around them.  She unintentionally put the other child in danger.  It was a minor mistake with sad consequences.  Micah got too comfortable around Lady Arya and he should have known better.
3. Daenerys Targaryen trusted Mirri Maaz Duur because she thought kindness earned the old woman's loyalty.  It led to a comatose husband.  The old moral saying 'do unto others are you would have them do unto you' only works when the two share the same values.  MMD clearly came from a different value system.  The Lhazareen valued revenge highly.
4. Sansa Stark lacked an understanding of politics.  She talked to Cersei about her father's intent to leave the city.  The signs were all there of hostile feelings between her family and Cersei's but Sansa was not paying attention.  How Sansa did not see these obvious signs can only mean she was completely out of touch with what was going on around her.  Eddard already said they were in danger.  Sansa was clue less.  
5. Janos Slynt was too blind to keep his mouth shut and escalated the political dispute with Jon Snow.  He thought his social rank outside the NW offered him protection at the wall.  He made a public show of disrespect to his commanding officer.  He gave Jon the opening needed to execute him.  Jon used his authority to get rid of a person he hated.  
6. Illyn Payne was running his mouth and saying things which he should not have.  The king was offended and took his tongue.  A man who had been in court for as long as he has should have known.  We would not say such things behind our bosses today for fear of termination.  Payne was an idiot.  

Catelyn Tully-Stark is a disappointment to me because she understood it all and still did the things she did.  

Take the time to read the people and know the laws.  Read social cues.  It's better to keep the mouth closed.  Do not say anything when in doubt.  Only spend as much time with the more powerful as needed and do not let your guard down.  Please let me know what you think of this subject.

[sifth]

Might as well be the theme of the series. If everyone was smart or at least reasonably intelligent, there would be no story.

[Craving Peaches]

26 minutes ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

Micah got too comfortable around Lady Arya and he should have known better.

How dare the peasant scum even look at his social superiors! Truly a crime of the highest order.

This is ridiculous. If a highborn asks him to play, what is he supposed to do? Refuse? And when Joffrey comes along Mycah is respectful as can be. He doesn't even look him in the eye.

28 minutes ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

It led to a comatose husband.  The old moral saying 'do unto others are you would have them do unto you' only works when the two share the same values.  MMD clearly came from a different value system.  The Lhazareen valued revenge highly.

Said husband and his men raped and slaughtered her people and destroyed her home...So I think she was actually quite lenient with Drogo in terms of revenge. He died painlessly after all, and not even by her own hand.

[StarkTullies]

I agree with the overall theme of ignorance sometimes leading to death, but I disagree with many if not most of your specific examples.

53 minutes ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

Prince Viserys lacked an understanding of the Dothraki.  He did not learn their language and was oblivious to their laws.  His ignorance caused his death.

Viserys threatened to cut open the wife of the Dothraki khal, and leave behind the corpse of his unborn child as his wife bled to death.  Yes, that was "ignorance", but not about his lack of knowledge of the Dothraki language or laws.  That was utter idiocy in any culture.  Viserys was ignorant in thinking that being the "rightful Targaryen heir" entitled him to act like that without consequences.

56 minutes ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

(Arya) unintentionally put the other child in danger.  It was a minor mistake with sad consequences.  Micah got too comfortable around Lady Arya and he should have known better.

This is two threads in a few days blaming Mycah's death on Arya and Mycah, and that is beyond absurd to me.  Children are allowed to play together, even if they are in different social classes.  The problem isn't that they were "ignorant" of social structure; the problem is that Joffrey was a sadistic psychopath.

58 minutes ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

Daenerys Targaryen trusted Mirri Maaz Duur because she thought kindness earned the old woman's loyalty.  It led to a comatose husband.  The old moral saying 'do unto others are you would have them do unto you' only works when the two share the same values.  MMD clearly came from a different value system.  The Lhazareen valued revenge highly.

I agree that Daenerys was profoundly ignorant to think that stopping Mirri from being further raped would earn Mirri's loyalty to the man who orchestrated the attack on her village.  I disagree about everything else.  The "lamb men" (as the Dothraki call them) are one of the least war-like cultures in the story, and they don't "value revenge highly".  Khal Drogo is one of the most vile villains in the series; he led the campaign of murder, rape, and enslavement upon the Lhazareen.  Dany was not living by the "Golden Rule" here; she requested this invasion and considered it "the price of the Iron Throne".  I don't blame Mirri at all for taking out Khal Drogo.

1 hour ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

Sansa Stark lacked an understanding of politics.  She talked to Cersei about her father's intent to leave the city.  The signs were all there of hostile feelings between her family and Cersei's but Sansa was not paying attention.

I agree with this.  Sansa was acting like a foolish 11-year-old child (which she happened to be).  You didn't state this here, but I disagree with claims in the other thread saying that Sansa brought her family's downfall, inadvertently or not.

[Kierria]

3 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

I credit the excitement for the show for the increased activity on the forums.  The number of interesting topics have gone up in recent weeks.  I see new ideas on each visit.  The misfortunes of Viserys, Micah, Eddard, Illyn Payne, Daenerys, and Janos can all be traced to a failure to understand the surroundings.  

1. Prince Viserys lacked an understanding of the Dothraki.  He did not learn their language and was oblivious to their laws.  His ignorance caused his death.  
2. Arya Stark has played the game Come Into My Castle.  She should know the enemies are all around them.  She unintentionally put the other child in danger.  It was a minor mistake with sad consequences.  Micah got too comfortable around Lady Arya and he should have known better.
3. Daenerys Targaryen trusted Mirri Maaz Duur because she thought kindness earned the old woman's loyalty.  It led to a comatose husband.  The old moral saying 'do unto others are you would have them do unto you' only works when the two share the same values.  MMD clearly came from a different value system.  The Lhazareen valued revenge highly.
4. Sansa Stark lacked an understanding of politics.  She talked to Cersei about her father's intent to leave the city.  The signs were all there of hostile feelings between her family and Cersei's but Sansa was not paying attention.  How Sansa did not see these obvious signs can only mean she was completely out of touch with what was going on around her.  Eddard already said they were in danger.  Sansa was clue less.  
5. Janos Slynt was too blind to keep his mouth shut and escalated the political dispute with Jon Snow.  He thought his social rank outside the NW offered him protection at the wall.  He made a public show of disrespect to his commanding officer.  He gave Jon the opening needed to execute him.  Jon used his authority to get rid of a person he hated.  
6. Illyn Payne was running his mouth and saying things which he should not have.  The king was offended and took his tongue.  A man who had been in court for as long as he has should have known.  We would not say such things behind our bosses today for fear of termination.  Payne was an idiot.  

Catelyn Tully-Stark is a disappointment to me because she understood it all and still did the things she did.  

Take the time to read the people and know the laws.  Read social cues.  It's better to keep the mouth closed.  Do not say anything when in doubt.  Only spend as much time with the more powerful as needed and do not let your guard down.  Please let me know what you think of this subject.

I want to comment on the debatable guilt of Micha.  He was a peasant boy who, I would bet, was illiterate.  He was a victim of the ruling class.  The problem in #2 was Arya.  Whether we like it or not.  Whether she liked it or not her acceptable playmates were Myrcella and Sansa.  Michah's gnorance alone should not be enough to lay blame.  Micha was ignorant but that was not his fault.  Arya was not ignorant and should have known better.  She would rather not play with Myrcella so she picked the butcher's son.  It was a dumb thing to do given the difference in their social status.  Knowing everyone's place in their world started before children could walk.  Each person knew where they rank from King Aerys on down to the folks at Flea Bottom.  Westeros was built on the differentiation between classes of people.  Arya knew but asked Micha to play anyway.  Arya will realize this one day and should feel guilty.