Craving Peaches Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 After two Unsullied are poisoned at a wine shop, Daenerys has the Wineseller and his two daughters arrested. They seem to be the only suspects, thought it is also possible that the Wine was poisoned independantly by an agent of the Sons of the Harpy, or that the supplier or producer of the Wine had it poisoned. The Wineseller may have known about this, he might not have. There are also various combinations such as the seller being guilty but the daughters being innocent etc. At first, Daenerys wishes to have them questioned 'sweetly', but after the murder of one of her councillors, Daenerys gets angry and changes her mind, and decides to have the daughters tortured in front of the father instead. Quote The queen flinched. Rylona Rhee had played the harp as sweetly as the Maiden. When she had been a slave in Yunkai, she had played for every highborn family in the city. In Meereen she had become a leader amongst the Yunkish freedmen, their voice in Dany's councils. "We have no captives but this wineseller?" "None, this one grieves to confess. We beg your pardon." Mercy, thought Dany. They will have the dragon's mercy. "Skahaz, I have changed my mind. Question the man sharply." The issue is that it is very unlikely they had something to do with the murder of the councillor, as by that point they were all already in custody. So it feels like they are being treated more harshley for a crime they did not commit. Also, in my opinnion, Torture is not really a good way to determine whether someone is innocent or guilty. Because they will almost always just tell you what you want to hear in order to make the pain stop. So in terms of finding out whether they were involved with the poisoning or not, it would be kind of useless. They will just end up telling the Shavepate and Daenerys what he wants hear. Danerys herself alludes to this some time after giving the order, though she makes no move to stop it, which is a little odd as it seems to suggest she knows it's futile but doesn't care at that point. Quote "No," she said. "I do not trust these confessions. You've brought me too many of them, all of them worthless." Of course, torture is standard operating practice for almost everyone in power in the series, but it does seem a bit weird that Daenerys says it's futile but doesn'tappear to make any move to stop the ongoing torture. She is essentially just waiting for a confession that she suspects will be of dubious legitimacy anyway. I have to say, I don't think this is one of Daenerys' best moments. Having two daughters tortured in front of the father because they might have been involved in a crime is a bit cruel in my opinion. And it isn't even useful, by her own admission. So what was the point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said: After two Unsullied are poisoned at a wine shop, Daenerys has the Wineseller and his two daughters arrested. They seem to be the only suspects, thought it is also possible that the Wine was poisoned independantly by an agent of the Sons of the Harpy, or that the supplier or producer of the Wine had it poisoned. The Wineseller may have known about this, he might not have. There are also various combinations such as the seller being guilty but the daughters being innocent etc. At first, Daenerys wishes to have them questioned 'sweetly', but after the murder of one of her councillors, Daenerys gets angry and changes her mind, and decides to have the daughters tortured in front of the father instead. The issue is that it is very unlikely they had something to do with the murder of the councillor, as by that point they were all already in custody. So it feels like they are being treated more harshley for a crime they did not commit. Also, in my opinnion, Torture is not really a good way to determine whether someone is innocent or guilty. Because they will almost always just tell you what you want to hear in order to make the pain stop. So in terms of finding out whether they were involved with the poisoning or not, it would be kind of useless. They will just end up telling the Shavepate and Daenerys what he wants hear. Danerys herself alludes to this some time after giving the order, though she makes no move to stop it, which is a little odd as it seems to suggest she knows it's futile but doesn't care at that point. Of course, torture is standard operating practice for almost everyone in power in the series, but it does seem a bit weird that Daenerys says it's futile but doesn'tappear to make any move to stop the ongoing torture. She is essentially just waiting for a confession that she suspects will be of dubious legitimacy anyway. I have to say, I don't think this is one of Daenerys' best moments. Having two daughters tortured in front of the father because they might have been involved in a crime is a bit cruel in my opinion. And it isn't even useful, by her own admission. So what was the point? It was cruel and spiteful. She’s lashing out in response to the murder of her supporters. She does later order an end to torture, on the ground that it produces worthless confessions. Torture only works if the information can be quickly verified eg torturing a bank employee for the combination to a safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oana_Mika Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 I will just summarise what I talked with you in my previous replies. Yes, it's not her best moment but people also like very much to forget that the wineseller and his daughters were suspects and I'm affraid that "innocent until proven guilty" does not exist in Martin's ASOIAF . Daenerys did not took any innocent person from his bed and simply started to torture. The wine shop where the poison occured was theirs, no one else got poisoned (so the poison was in the two cups from where the unsullied drank) , no other suspects where found at their shop and they are the ones with the best opportunity to do so. There is also this (a line from Qavo, a slaver, to Tyrion) : "[...]Poor men hate her too. Even the vilest beggar stands higher than a slave. This dragon queen would rob him of that consolation." - A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VI Maybe business men from Meereen also hate that the Dragon Queen filled their streets with "beggars,thieves and whores" : These Meereenese were a sly and stubborn people who resisted her at every turn. They had freed their slaves, yes … only to hire them back as servants at wages so meagre that most could scarce afford to eat. Those too old or young to be of use had been cast into the streets, along with the infirm and the crippled. And still the Great Masters gathered atop their lofty pyramids to complain of how the dragon queen had filled their noble city with hordes of unwashed beggars, thieves, and whores. - A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 23, 2022 Author Share Posted October 23, 2022 3 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said: Daenerys did not took any innocent person from his bed and simply started to tortur If they are innocent than that is exactly what she will have done. They are suspects because they were the only people near the scene of the crime, but that doesn't mean they're automatically guilty. Also, even if they were guilty, does it really justify their torture? The punishment for murder is execution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oana_Mika Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 10 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: If they are innocent than that is exactly what she will have done. They are suspects because they were the only people near the scene of the crime, but that doesn't mean they're automatically guilty. "Innocent until proven guilty" doesn't exist in ASOIAF I'm affraid. The winseller and his daughters are not found as suspects just because the shop was theirs but also because of the circumstances (at this point I keep repeating myself, since it seems that whatever I say stays unnoticed for you because I simply don't validate you 100%) : the only people poisoned there were the two unsullied the posion was in their cups the winseller and his daughers had the best chance at posioning their cups, far more than any other outsider 10 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: Also, even if they were guilty, does it really justify their torture? The punishment for murder is execution. So now we are back at "torture is bad anyway"? I thought your grudge was because you believe the wineseller and his daughters were innocent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 23, 2022 Author Share Posted October 23, 2022 3 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said: "Innocent until proven guilty" doesn't exist in ASOIAF I'm affraid. The concept not existing doesn't change the fact that if they are innocent, then Daenerys has tortured two innocent people. Unless you think that Daenerys merely saying they are guilty makes them guilty. 5 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said: So now we are back at "torture is bad anyway"? I thought your grudge was because you believe the wineseller and his daughters were innocent Torture is bad anyway. Torture of innocents is worse. 5 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said: I simply don't validate you 100% If it is not validated 100% then there is still the possibility they are innocent. The point of the plot is that it is unclear whether they are guilty or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oana_Mika Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: The concept not existing doesn't change the fact that if they are innocent, then Daenerys has tortured two innocent people. Unless you think that Daenerys merely saying they are guilty makes them guilty. Torture is bad anyway. Torture of innocents is worse. If it is not validated 100% then there is still the possibility they are innocent. The point of the plot is that it is unclear whether they are guilty or not. Well, I don't believe they are 100% innocent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oana_Mika Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 11 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: The point of the plot is that it is unclear whether they are guilty or not. And as I said earlier (don't know if you read it) I think the point of this plot is to contrast her with Cersei, whom knowingly tortures and innocent man (the Blue Bard) to frame Margery and has a woman given to Quyburn's experiments. Daenerys tortures the suspects of the killing of two of her men in order to gain information and to stop the butchering of unsullied and freedmen, while Cersei tortures innocents to further her anti Tyerll agenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 23, 2022 Author Share Posted October 23, 2022 4 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said: And as I said earlier (don't know if you read it) I think the point of this plot is to contrast her with Cersei I did read it. But that doesn't mean that the contrast with Cersei is the only purpose. I think it is like the murder of Dareon. Unclear whether the victims were guilty or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 23, 2022 Author Share Posted October 23, 2022 10 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said: Well, I don't believe they are 100% innocent. I believe they are innocent until proven guilty. Yes, I know this concept does not exist in Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kierria Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 It was harsh but necessary. Some things that need to be done during a time of war are not pretty. I approve of Dany's decision and would have done it sooner. Stannis, Renly, Tywin, Tyrion, Robb, Jon, any of those would have done the same thing. Terrorists are attacking the new government and endangering the welfare of the people. An assassination attempt on the leader of the government, a Targaryen queen no less, required that harsh measures be taken. People who do not have the fortitude to make harsh decisions should not consider leading. They need to stay home and do embroidery. A good leader will have justice in the back of their minds but the most important priority is the security and safety of the state. Dany was being a good leader of the government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oana_Mika Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said: I believe they are innocent until proven guilty. Yes, I know this concept does not exist in Westeros. As I said, you may have whatever headcanon you want. I prefer to stick with the text, in which it's specificly said that they were the only suspects found and in which is never implied or mentioned other casualties than the two unsullied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 23, 2022 Author Share Posted October 23, 2022 3 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said: As I said, you may have whatever headcanon you want. I prefer to stick with the text, in which it's specificly said that they were the only suspects found and in which is never implied or mentioned other casualties than the two unsullied The text does not provide proof beyond reasonable doubt that they are guilty. If we were supposed to treat them as though they were 100% guilty, the text would tell us. They would have caught them in the act or something. We are supposed to doubt whether they are guilty or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 23, 2022 Author Share Posted October 23, 2022 8 minutes ago, Kierria said: A good leader will have justice in the back of their minds but the most important priority is the security and safety of the state. Dany was being a good leader of the government. This is how half of the population ends up killed or imprisoned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kierria Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: This is how half of the population ends up killed or imprisoned. The first job of a head of state is to protect the safety of as many of the people as possible. Sometimes that means doing things that are cruel. The suspects in this case needed to be questioned. They were not forthcoming. The answer they give will save the lives of many people. Deal with the cancer before it spreads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 23, 2022 Author Share Posted October 23, 2022 1 minute ago, Kierria said: The answer they give will save the lives of many people. It won't, because they will just confirm whatever the Shavepate wants. Such is the way of torture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTN02 Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 Madness runs in the family, and this is GRRM showing us that Daenerys has at least a touch of it. Not surprising seeing as a normal person has 8 great grandparents: she has 2. Both her parents and grandparents where full blood siblings. Same with the crucified slavers: when Dany loses control, she lashes out. We are cheering her on because she does it to some bad people, so GRRM is putting some people that might be innocent in harms way. No-one is 100% good in this series. This is one of Dany's black pages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oana_Mika Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 44 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: The text does not provide proof beyond reasonable doubt that they are guilty. If we were supposed to treat them as though they were 100% guilty, the text would tell us. They would have caught them in the act or something. We are supposed to doubt whether they are guilty or not. I agree that the text does not say that they are 100% giulty either. I just say that it's more probable that they are than that they just happen to be misfortunate victims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted October 23, 2022 Author Share Posted October 23, 2022 1 minute ago, Oana_Mika said: I just say that it's more probable that they are than that they just happen to be misfortunate victims. It is more probable, but Daenerys ideally shouldn't torture them at all, certainly not unless she is sure. Otherwise it's pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTN02 Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 1 minute ago, Oana_Mika said: I agree that the text does not say that they are 100% giulty either. I just say that it's more probable that they are than that they just happen to be misfortunate victims. guilty or not, it takes a special kind of evil to torture a man's daughters before his eyes. even if the man was guilty, the girls probably are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.