Jump to content

Daenerys and the Torture of the Wineseller's Daughters - Thoughts?


Craving Peaches
 Share

Recommended Posts

21 minutes ago, HTN02 said:

Its not like today where you have a house and a place to work. the man was probably living next to/above the wineshop, along with his daughters. This would be very standard in real life cities with that level of development.

The point is we don't know how old they are, because it is neither told nor asked by Daenerys. we get the same info as she gets, but she doesn't care enough to ask about it. Even if they are adults, Daenerys did *not* know.

 

Since we only know that the unsullied were poisoned at the winseller's shop where they had custom to stop and him and his daughters were the only suspects, it's reasonable to assume they all worked there and I can't see a kid working serving wine to drunk men not even in medieval times.

 

21 minutes ago, HTN02 said:

2 daughters.
How would you spin it? she decides it to be torture after she learns that he is the one arrested in the case of Misandei's brother. when she thought it was a different pair of unsullied they killed, she was ok with questioning them sweetly. she also acknowledges that it probably wont work anyway.

 

She changes her mind after learning of the death of Rylona Rhee, the voice of the freedmen in her council, because she is desperate to gain information about the Sons of the Harpy and put an end to the buchery. IDK why people don't seem to understand that someone from her council has been killed. So the Sons of the Harpy do not only butcher armed patrols and freemed in their homes but they also stroke at their very voice they had in Dany's council.

 

Nine. The word was a dagger in her heart. Every night the shadow war was waged anew beneath the stepped pyramids of Meereen. Every morn the sun rose upon fresh corpses, with harpies drawn in blood on the bricks beside them. Any freedman who became too prosperous or too outspoken was marked for death. Nine in one night, though … That frightened her. "Tell me."

Grey Worm answered. "Your servants were set upon as they walked the bricks of Meereen to keep Your Grace's peace. All were well armed, with spears and shields and short swords. Two by two they walked, and two by two they died. Your servants Black Fist and Cetherys were slain by crossbow bolts in Mazdhan's Maze. Your servants Mossador and Duran were crushed by falling stones beneath the river wall. Your servants Eladon Goldenhair and Loyal Spear were poisoned at a wineshop where they were accustomed to stop each night upon their rounds."

Mossador. Dany made a fist. Missandei and her brothers had been taken from their home on Naath by raiders from the Basilisk Isles and sold into slavery in Astapor. Young as she was, Missandei had shown such a gift for tongues that the Good Masters had made a scribe of her. Mossador and Marselen had not been so fortunate. They had been gelded and made into Unsullied. "Have any of the murderers been captured?"

"Your servants have arrested the owner of the wineshop and his daughters. They plead their ignorance and beg for mercy."

They all plead ignorance and beg for mercy. "Give them to the Shavepate. Skahaz, keep each apart from the others and put them to the question."

"It will be done, Your Worship. Would you have me question them sweetly, or sharply?"

"Sweetly, to begin. Hear what tales they tell and what names they give you. It may be they had no part in this." She hesitated. "Nine, the noble Reznak said. Who else?"

"Three freedmen, murdered in their homes," the Shavepate said. "A moneylender, a cobbler, and the harpist Rylona Rhee. They cut her fingers off before they killed her."

The queen flinched. Rylona Rhee had played the harp as sweetly as the Maiden. When she had been a slave in Yunkai, she had played for every highborn family in the city. In Meereen she had become a leader amongst the Yunkish freedmen, their voice in Dany's councils. "We have no captives but this wineseller?"

"None, this one grieves to confess. We beg your pardon."

Mercy, thought Dany. They will have the dragon's mercy. "Skahaz, I have changed my mind. Question the man sharply."

"I could. Or I could question the daughters sharply whilst the father looks on. That will wring some names from him."

"Do as you think best, but bring me names." Her fury was a fire in her belly. "I will have no more Unsullied slaughtered. Grey Worm, pull your men back to their barracks. Henceforth let them guard my walls and gates and person. From this day, it shall be for Meereenese to keep the peace in Meereen. Skahaz, make me a new watch, made up in equal parts of shavepates and freedmen." - A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys II

 

As you can see, it's not even her idea to "question the daughters sharply" so the father might confess quickly and I'm not as harsh with her about this because again, I think it's more likely that they all were involved since the opposite would let the poisoning  at the chance of an outsider having the luck to poison the two unsullied's cups (since no one else was poisoned, I beleive the poison was in the cups). And if the daughters were innocent, it would have ment that the wineseller would have put stock in him being at the right time when the unsullied arrived to serve them before his daughters would.

Edited by Oana_Mika
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, HTN02 said:

Id expect better of Stannis, but alright, so Stannis does it to. I never been a fan of him anyway. like Kierria says, he also burns people. (and neither i am a fan of Dany, that is true)
For Jon: does Castle Black has cells beyond the icecells?
For Tywin: Not a saint either, but you cant really blame him for a design feature that might have been done even before there was a Lannister/ Lann the Clever in Casterly Rock. Almost the same for Jon Arryn, those skycells where a feature of his ancestors, and he might have used different cells if he needed them. Mort is a goaler. not a friendly one, but one anyway. remember he probably never has prisoners anyway (there is no town nearby, just a small garrison)

Robb's commanders you mean Bolton? i dont think he does that with permission of Robb.
Tyrion sends people to Joffrey's Justice, meaning they get used as catapult ammo. probably a better way to go then a slow hanging. not saying it is OK, but its not really torture.
 

Ice cells, sky cells, and oubliettes are all designed to break the spirits of those who are placed in them.  They are not ordinary prison cells.  They predate Jon, Jon Arryn, Tywin, but they make use of them.  Imagine being stuck for months in a place where you can’t move, sitting in your own wastes.  Or trapped inside a giant refrigerator.  And we know from Tyrion how psychologically damaging the sky cells are.  Mord is not just  a gaoler, but a torturer too.  LF employs him to rip off Marillion’s fingers and put out his eyes.

Ser Gregor, the Tickler, Vargo Hoat etc all torture on Tywin’s behalf.

Tyrion’s victims first have antlers nailed into their skulls, before being catapulted.

The commanders who torture and hang suspected collaborators are the River Lords .  Bolton is in a special league of awful.

Other examples are Qhorin Halfhand, seen as a hero by the Watch, who freely admits torturing a prisoner to death while questioning him.  Lord Manderly, who employs a torturer who taunts Ser Davos.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

Same

 

While I believe it's her harshest and most rashed decision I don't believe the wineseller and his daughters were 100% innocent. For them to be completely out of blame, the attack should have been rested upon fate and the chance to poison the unsullied's cups ( since they were the only ones poisoned ) while with their involvement, nothing is left to chance. They die yes or yes, nor ifs or whens.

 

 

I can also completely justify Jon's action although it was also harsh and cruel. He just wanted to prevent Mance's baby to be killed and he believed that if Melisandre knows it's Gilly's baby no baby will be burned. But I don't see people criticising him for this nearly as much as Dany is for her decision. Or maybe I haven't seen enough discussions.

Jon never gets criticised for what is a very nasty act.

Gilly has been raped repeatedly by her father, and gets burned and threatened, into giving up her child.  We know from Sam’s POV that she’s constantly crying about it.

Jon is playing God here, deciding that the risk to Mance’s boy justifies placing Gilly’s boy in danger and separating him forever from his mother.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, HTN02 said:

btw, how are the odds that the wineseller was guilty?

his place sounds like a bar. in general, when someone spike's a girl's drink in a bar, odds are its not the barkeep who did that.

I think it’s likely that the Harpies coerced him into assisting them,  as they did with Hizdahr’s confectioner. So, guilty, but with extenuating circumstances.

Edited by SeanF
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, HTN02 said:

btw, how are the odds that the wineseller was guilty?

his place sounds like a bar. in general, when someone spike's a girl's drink in a bar, odds are its not the barkeep who did that.

They were the only people around but at the same time I am a believer in 'Innocent Until Proven Guilty' (yes I know it's not a thing in the books) so I think Daenerys needed more evidence before she took such a step. Since the torture's kind of useless otherwise.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, HTN02 said:

btw, how are the odds that the wineseller was guilty?

his place sounds like a bar. in general, when someone spike's a girl's drink in a bar, odds are its not the barkeep who did that.

The timing was too perfect.  The execution was too precise.   The deed could not have been done without the knowledge of the wine seller.  He put the poison or at least knew who put the poison in the wine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

SMK is the expert in Meereen because he's a local boy.  I too would trust Skahaz and follow his advice.  Dany as the President must carry the guilt if the man and his daugthers are innocent because she is in command.  It's the burden of command and the price leaders pay to keep their people safe.  Command is not the right role for the tender of heart. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Kierria said:

SMK is the expert in Meereen because he's a local boy.  I too would trust Skahaz and follow his advice.  Dany as the President must carry the guilt if the man and his daugthers are innocent because she is in command.  It's the burden of command and the price leaders pay to keep their people safe.  Command is not the right role for the tender of heart. 

SMK is a piece of work, but probably the best local strongman to protect Meereen in Dany’s absence.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

At first, Daenerys wishes to have them questioned 'sweetly', but after the murder of one of her councillors, Daenerys gets angry and changes her mind, and decides to have the daughters tortured in front of the father instead.

Ahhh... I'm getting Aerys the second vibes, like Brandon and Rickard

 

6 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

The issue is that it is very unlikely they had something to do with the murder of the councillor, as by that point they were all already in custody. So it feels  like they are being treated more harshley for a crime they did not commit.

Nope. There's a plot going on, when Dany decided to question them sweetly there seemed to be more time with a plan thwarted but her councillor was killed and she'll assume, reasonably, that these two events are linked. So they are being treated more harshly because of their own crimes, being co-conspirators at a plot targeting Dany and co or at the very least being instruments to it. However you take it, they are treated harshly for their own wrong doings.

 

6 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Also, in my opinnion, Torture is not really a good way to determine whether someone is innocent or guilty. Because they will almost always just tell you what you want to hear in order to make the pain stop. So in terms of finding out whether they were involved with the poisoning or not, it would be kind of useless. They will just end up telling the Shavepate and Daenerys what he wants hear. Danerys herself alludes to this some time after giving the order, though she makes no move to stop it, which is a little odd as it seems to suggest she knows it's futile but doesn't care at that point.

Not just your opinion, it is considered a fact by many these days of our modern times but it wasn't in medieval ages. Dany isn't a time traveller and even if she were, she's not of our world so Planetosi may never evolve that way.

 

6 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Of course, torture is standard operating practice for almost everyone in power in the series, but it does seem a bit weird that Daenerys says it's futile but doesn'tappear to make any move to stop the ongoing torture. She is essentially just waiting for a confession that she suspects will be of dubious legitimacy anyway. I have to say, I don't think this is one of Daenerys' best moments. Having two daughters tortured in front of the father because they might have been involved in a crime is a bit cruel in my opinion. And it isn't even useful, by her own admission. So what was the point?

She's probably getting a relief, thinking she's doing something regarding both her assasination attempt and the assassination of her councillor. Doing anything, even if it was pointless, would make her feel better than not doing anything.

Also... like I said, Aerys the Second. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, SeanF said:

SMK is a piece of work, but probably the best local strongman to protect Meereen in Dany’s absence.

I am not sure you want Khorne worshippers running the place. :P

Anyway, I do think Shavepate may be the best choice for that role, but I fear his experiences with the Masters may lead him to basically restart the civil war. OTOH, I don't think Masters can necessarily be trusted either, so...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Whoops, so many replies -( ill try and answer them all. please dont be offended if i missed yours!

  

8 minutes ago, Rondo said:

The timing was too perfect.  The execution was too precise.   The deed could not have been done without the knowledge of the wine seller.  He put the poison or at least knew who put the poison in the wine.

Its not a very complex plan you need. you go to a bar where you know 2 unsullied drink often, spike 2 drinks, and leave. no need to involve the barkeep. knowing he probably be arrested and tortured, better not involve him even.

 

11 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

They were the only people around but at the same time I am a believer in 'Innocent Until Proven Guilty' (yes I know it's not a thing in the books) so I think Daenerys needed more evidence before she took such a step. Since the torture's kind of useless otherwise.

I live in a country where this has been common law for some time as well. this is indeed what it should be. but in a world without fingerprints, DNA, or other forensic techniques, its quite hard to prove beyond reasonable doubt.

However, Dany is torturing out of revenge, not because she expects information from them.

 

31 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

 

Since we only know that the unsullied were poisoned at the winseller's shop where they had custom to stop and him and his daughters were the only suspects, it's reasonable to assume they all worked there and I can't see a kid working serving wine to drunk men not even in medieval times.

As you can see, it's not even her idea to "question the daughters sharply" so the father might confess quickly and I'm not as harsh with her about this because again, I think it's more likely that they all were involved since the opposite would let the poisoning  at the chance of an outsider having the luck to poison the two unsullied's cups (since no one else was poisoned, I beleive the poison was in the cups). And if the daughters were innocent, it would have ment that the wineseller would have put stock in him being at the right time when the unsullied arrived to serve them before his daughters would.

(Cut the bookquote to make it more manageable)
as we know very little of the situation, there is very little we can really asume. i was wrong about who was killed to put her over the edge, but it was that kill that made her change her mind to torture. and offcourse its the shavepate's idea. like someone else said, he is a piece of work. however, Dany goes along without asking any questions.

The wineseller and his daughters were the only ones present, because everyone naturally flees when something like this happens. including any personnel he might have had. its his business and most likely also his house (again, that would be normal for a medieval family)
Also, children vary greatly about were they grow up. even kids 10-12 could be set to work in a shitworld like Mereen is.

If you come and visit Amsterdam, ill show you the Red Light District, and i also show you where the children's day care is. (hint, it got windows on one side, and a coffeeshop on the other side. dont go there, they sell tourist-weed)
If that's your daycare, id expect you be able to run a bar by the time your 14 :laugh:

But the point is: we dont know, because Dany doesnt want to know herself.

19 minutes ago, Kierria said:

SMK is the expert in Meereen because he's a local boy.  I too would trust Skahaz and follow his advice.  Dany as the President must carry the guilt if the man and his daugthers are innocent because she is in command.  It's the burden of command and the price leaders pay to keep their people safe.  Command is not the right role for the tender of heart. 

If hes advocating torturing some girls to get information from their father, information you don't know he has, id hope you think twice.

 

41 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Ice cells, sky cells, and oubliettes are all designed to break the spirits of those who are placed in them.  They are not ordinary prison cells.  They predate Jon, Jon Arryn, Tywin, but they make use of them.  Imagine being stuck for months in a place where you can’t move, sitting in your own wastes.  Or trapped inside a giant refrigerator.  And we know from Tyrion how psychologically damaging the sky cells are.  Mord is not just  a gaoler, but a torturer too.  LF employs him to rip off Marillion’s fingers and put out his eyes.

Ser Gregor, the Tickler, Vargo Hoat etc all torture on Tywin’s behalf.

Tyrion’s victims first have antlers nailed into their skulls, before being catapulted.

The commanders who torture and hang suspected collaborators are the River Lords .  Bolton is in a special league of awful.

Other examples are Qhorin Halfhand, seen as a hero by the Watch, who freely admits torturing a prisoner to death while questioning him.  Lord Manderly, who employs a torturer who taunts Ser Davos.

Again, Tywin is no saint, and is never really potrayed as likable.
Is Jon Arryn noted to ever have used them? he might, he might not have. 
Mord was the closest thing that littlefinger had to a torturer. i doubt it was his official job.
Joffrey's Victims. its made quite clear that Tyrion does it to apeas him. still not bonuspoints for him, i do admit :-)
We don't have an insight into Robb's head, but do we know if he is aware what happens in his name?
Qhorin torturing someone to dead for the watch is nothing less than id expect from him.
Lord Manderly is portrayed as a hard man pretending to be weak. a torturer is a fine instrument for that. it also tells us this is a ruthless man who we should not discount.


 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, HTN02 said:

Whoops, so many replies -( ill try and answer them all. please dont be offended if i missed yours!

  

Its not a very complex plan you need. you go to a bar where you know 2 unsullied drink often, spike 2 drinks, and leave. no need to involve the barkeep. knowing he probably be arrested and tortured, better not involve him even.

 

I live in a country where this has been common law for some time as well. this is indeed what it should be. but in a world without fingerprints, DNA, or other forensic techniques, its quite hard to prove beyond reasonable doubt.

However, Dany is torturing out of revenge, not because she expects information from them.

 

(Cut the bookquote to make it more manageable)
as we know very little of the situation, there is very little we can really asume. i was wrong about who was killed to put her over the edge, but it was that kill that made her change her mind to torture. and offcourse its the shavepate's idea. like someone else said, he is a piece of work. however, Dany goes along without asking any questions.

The wineseller and his daughters were the only ones present, because everyone naturally flees when something like this happens. including any personnel he might have had. its his business and most likely also his house (again, that would be normal for a medieval family)
Also, children vary greatly about were they grow up. even kids 10-12 could be set to work in a shitworld like Mereen is.

If you come and visit Amsterdam, ill show you the Red Light District, and i also show you where the children's day care is. (hint, it got windows on one side, and a coffeeshop on the other side. dont go there, they sell tourist-weed)
If that's your daycare, id expect you be able to run a bar by the time your 14 :laugh:

But the point is: we dont know, because Dany doesnt want to know herself.

If hes advocating torturing some girls to get information from their father, information you don't know he has, id hope you think twice.

 

Again, Tywin is no saint, and is never really potrayed as likable.
Is Jon Arryn noted to ever have used them? he might, he might not have. 
Mord was the closest thing that littlefinger had to a torturer. i doubt it was his official job.
Joffrey's Victims. its made quite clear that Tyrion does it to apeas him. still not bonuspoints for him, i do admit :-)
We don't have an insight into Robb's head, but do we know if he is aware what happens in his name?
Qhorin torturing someone to dead for the watch is nothing less than id expect from him.
Lord Manderly is portrayed as a hard man pretending to be weak. a torturer is a fine instrument for that. it also tells us this is a ruthless man who we should not discount.


 

Well, I doubt if Arryn employed Mord as an act of charity.

Every lord employs “beasts in the woods.”

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, HTN02 said:

But the point is: we dont know, because Dany doesnt want to know herself.

From what I got from the books, if a character gets something wrong and he/she does not want to know otherwise or does not care about the wrongdoing and Martin wants us to know "this character got x thing wrong" he will show us. He could have wrote a line about this in Barristan's chapters for eg or someone saying something to her about this or talking about it with someone. So for know we know she let two girls (who were suspects along with their father in the poison of two unsullied) be "questioned sharply" in front of their father in order to gain information about this organization that butchers her people. Harsh and rash decision, true, but we can't conclude that she got two innocents tortured. Since this is a huge part of the characterization of one of his main characters, I doubt that if it was so, Martin would want us to be oblivious to that. Like, with Cersei he makes it clear she does not care about torturing innocents (the Blue Bard and the women she gave to Quyburn). Until know, he did not hide us her "questionable" moments. Fandom keeps talking endlesly and they scrutinize her burning Mirri (the person who killed her unborn son), the sack of Astapor and her crucifixion of the 163 leaders of Meereen who had 163 children crucified as a "F you" to her. They even atribute to her the things that were out of her control like Drogo's khalasar pillaging the Lhazareen village, Viserys' death, the masters burning Astapor and making the people there eating rats snd dogs so they got sick with the bloody flux etc.

Edited by Oana_Mika
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Well, I doubt if Arryn employed Mord as an act of charity.

Every lord employs “beasts in the woods.”

He was a goaler. that was what he was employed as. what was there to torture in the Eyrie? there is not many people there as a general rule of thumb. as a goaler he probably dealt with drunk guards and the likes.

 

When littlefinger needed someone to maim Marillion, he had a small pool to draw from. some guards, a cook or 2, Mord, and that is about it. the Eyrie is noted as being very empty around that time.

 

For what i understood is that torturing is losing its way in the 7 kingdoms. For example, there has not been a lord confessor since Daeron II.

Edited by HTN02
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, HTN02 said:

He was a goaler. that was what he was employed as. what was there to torture in the Eyrie? there is not many people there as a general rule of thumb. as a goaler he probably dealt with drunk guards and the likes.

 

When littlefinger needed someone to maim Marillion, he had a small pool to draw from. some guards, a cook or 2, Mord, and that is about it. the Eyrie is noted as being very empty around that time.

 

For what i understood is that torturing is losing its way in the 7 kingdoms. For example, there has not been a lord confessor since Daeron II.

No need for a Lord Confessor when you have whisperers.

There are torture chambers under the Red Keep.  And the BWB have their crow cages, so that points to its widespread use.  Another example I missed is Lord Tarly torturing a prostitute.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

From what I got from the books, if a character gets something wrong and he/she does not want to know otherwise or does not care about the wrongdoing and Martin wants us to know "this character got x thing wrong" he will show us. He could have wrote a line about this in Barristan's chapters for eg or someone saying something to her about this or talking about with someone. So for know we know she let two grils (who were suspects along with their father in the poison of two unsullied) be "questioned sharply" in front of their father in order to gain information about this organization that butchers her people. Harsh and rash decision, true but we can't conclude that she got two innocents tortured. Since this is a huge part of the characterization of one of his main characters, I doubt that if it was so Martin would want us to be oblivious to that. Like, with Cersei he makes it clear she does not care about torturing innocents (the Blue Bard and the women she gave to Quyburn). Until know, he did not hide us her "questionable" moments. Fandom keeps talking endleslly and they scrutinize her burning Mirri (the person who killed her unborn son), the sack of Astapor and her crucifixion of the 163 leaders of Meereen who had 163 children crucified as a "F you" to her.

ik was noted that not all of those leaders where complicit or supporting the crucifixion of those children.

Dany notes herself its probably useless and will not lead to a meaningful confession. we are pretty well reminded that it was not the right thing to do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

Fandom keeps talking endlesly and they scrutinize her burning Mirri (the person who killed her unborn son),

With Mirri, I thought she warned Daenerys not to go into the tent, but she did anyway. Couldn't that be the cause of death, rather than something Mirri did?

Though she does gloat about it, Tyrion also gloats about killing Joffrey when he never did.

Edited by Craving Peaches
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...