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Daenerys and the Torture of the Wineseller's Daughters - Thoughts?


Craving Peaches
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Just now, SeanF said:

No need for a Lord Confessor when you have whisperers.

There are torture chambers under the Red Keep.  And the BWB have their crow cages, so that points to its widespread use.  Another example I missed is Lord Tarly torturing a prostitute.

 

You mean the same Lord Tarly that threatened to kill his own son?
How is he an example of a likable person torturing people?

and did the BWB use the cages before lady Stonehart?

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2 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

@HTN02 and as I said in other replies, having the people working there involved in the poisoning of the unsullied leaves nothing to chance, rases no suspicion from the targets' part and it has a 100% guarantee of success while otherwise, things are let at chance and luck.

and as i said in other replies, you are making it out as some kind of master assassination. it is not. you poison 2 people. you get out, if need be with al the other patrons leaving when your victims die. thats all.

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5 minutes ago, HTN02 said:

ik was noted that not all of those leaders where complicit or supporting the crucifixion of those children.

Dany notes herself its probably useless and will not lead to a meaningful confession. we are pretty well reminded that it was not the right thing to do.

Hizzie’s father was a show-only thing.  The Great Masters collectively bloodied their hands by crucifying the children.  No one in the books ever claims that any Great Master spoke up on behalf of slave children - and why would they?  These peoples’ idea of fun is feeding children and dwarves to wild animals.

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5 minutes ago, HTN02 said:

Dany notes herself its probably useless and will not lead to a meaningful confession. we are pretty well reminded that it was not the right thing to do.

She notes that Skahaz's confessions are worthless because he brings her too many names (and she believes that it's because she has not a single enemy, but many and that there is no Harpy, but a group of people who uses the Sons). I think it's more a nite about how torture is not a good way to gain information (and I don't see sny other character reaching this conclusion) than that she tortured innocents. 

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5 minutes ago, HTN02 said:

You mean the same Lord Tarly that threatened to kill his own son?
How is he an example of a likable person torturing people?

and did the BWB use the cages before lady Stonehart?

No idea, but they use them.  Brutal execution of enemies is the norm

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12 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

With Mirri, I thought she warned Daenerys not to go into the tent, but she did anyway. Couldn't that be the cause of death, rather than something Mirri did?

Though she does gloat about it, Tyrion also gloats about killing Joffrey when he never did.

Then who was the price then? And both in the appendix, as in the app made with Martin's notes it's said that she killed Rhaego. 

Edited by Oana_Mika
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39 minutes ago, HTN02 said:

If you come and visit Amsterdam, ill show you the Red Light District, and i also show you where the children's day care is. (hint, it got windows on one side, and a coffeeshop on the other side. dont go there, they sell tourist-weed)

If I ever go there again, I'll take you up on that offer. 

We went there in the day (foolish tourists, I know) and didn't see anything worth the while. And then we got mixed up on the route back because my aunt kept insisting that she knew where to go, and that she remembered certain parts. 

She didn't. 

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30 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Hizzie’s father was a show-only thing.  The Great Masters collectively bloodied their hands by crucifying the children.  No one in the books ever claims that any Great Master spoke up on behalf of slave children - and why would they?  These peoples’ idea of fun is feeding children and dwarves to wild animals.

in the show she choose the master by lot i believe, and we got hizzies father. the show has always been less subtle.

In the books we have the masters chosen by the other masters. noted to not have had much power in the first place, and probably powerless to stop that idea of nailing the children against the crosses.

29 minutes ago, SeanF said:

No idea, but they use them.  Brutal execution of enemies is the norm

For Dany, it is not. Only when she is mad, she lashes out.

 

20 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

If I ever go there again, I'll take you up on that offer. 

We went there in the day (foolish tourists, I know) and didn't see anything worth the while. And then we got mixed up on the route back because my aunt kept insisting that she knew where to go, and that she remembered certain parts. 

She didn't. 

i have an aunt like that as well. im thanking god we never went on holiday with her.
But there is a lot worth seeing in Amsterdam, so hit me up if you ever go there again!

i dont know if you are from the US, but if you are, we have a drink at a bar that's is older than the US :-)

15 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Looks like Mirri the Baby Murderer is going next to Cersei on my disliked characters list then...

she was raped quite a few times, and saw alot of people from her village killed by the khalasar that baby's father led...
contrary to Cercei, she has some reason to want revenge...

Edited by HTN02
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36 minutes ago, HTN02 said:

and as i said in other replies, you are making it out as some kind of master assassination. it is not. you poison 2 people. you get out, if need be with al the other patrons leaving when your victims die. thats all.

LOL it's not a master assasination : you pay someone to do a dirty job. It's that simple. My theory is that they poisoned the usullied's cups. It does not rest upon any contrivance of how the poisoned wine got there without their knowledge because they simply put poison in the unsullied's cups. IDK what "master assasination" is that! While the other options of them being innocent rests on them having the bad luck of recieving a poisoned casket and not knowing (you tell me how that was possible) or the misfortune of the unsullied not noticing being followed and leaving their cups unattended so the poisoner could slip in the brew the poison.

Edited by Oana_Mika
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4 minutes ago, HTN02 said:

in the show she choose the master by lot i believe, and we got hizzies father. the show has always been less subtle.

In the books we have the masters chosen by the other masters. noted to not have had much power in the first place, and probably powerless to stop that idea of nailing the children against the crosses.

For Dany, it is not. Only when she is mad, she lashes out.

 

i have an aunt like that as well. im thanking god we never went on holiday with her.
But there is a lot worth seeing in Amsterdam, so hit me up if you ever go there again!

i dont know if you are from the US, but if you are, we have a drink at a bar that's is older than the US :-)

she was raped quite a few times, and saw alot of people from her village killed by the khalasar that baby's father led...
contrary to Cercei, she has some reason to want revenge...

We’re given the identities of three Great Masters who died, members of House Pahl, which is very powerful.  The notion that there were Great Masters speaking up on behalf of the slaves has no textual basis.

Personally, I think every adult male Great Master should have died.  They got off lightly.

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1 minute ago, Oana_Mika said:

LOL it's not a master assasination : you pay someone to do a dirty job. It's that simple. My theory is that they poisoned the usullied cups. It does not rest upon any contrivance of how the poisoned wine got there without their knowledge because they simply put poison in the unsullieds' cups. IDK what "master assasination" is that! Wwhile the other options of them being innocent rests on them having the bad luck of recieving a poisoned casket and not knowing (you tell me how that was possible) or the misfortune of the unsullied not noticing being followed and leaving their cups unattended so the poisoner could slip in the brew the poison.

Someone could have bought the liberators of the city a drink. again, from what we know of the place, it sounds like a bar.
Sliping something in someone's drink is not that hard. it unfortunately happens quite often irl, in bars that have better lighting that the bars in Mereen, that have candles for light. in most major cities woman are cautioned to always keep an eye on their drink.
again, logic dictates the wineseller wasnt involved, as he was the only one who could not really disappear, and was sure to be picked up.

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8 minutes ago, HTN02 said:

she was raped quite a few times, and saw alot of people from her village killed by the khalasar that baby's father led...
contrary to Cercei, she has some reason to want revenge...

Yes it's true, she had good reasons to want revenge but that does not change the fact that she killed someone who did not even drew a breath. You can't get more innocent or harmless than that.

Edited by Oana_Mika
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4 minutes ago, HTN02 said:

again, logic dictates the wineseller wasnt involved, as he was the only one who could not really disappear, and was sure to be picked up.

My logic dictates that since he and his daughters had the best oportunity at poisoning the unsullied than anyone else, they probably did it. And hey might have thought Daenerys wouldn't be that harsh on them. Until then she only payed for information.

Edited by Oana_Mika
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8 minutes ago, SeanF said:

We’re given the identities of three Great Masters who died, members of House Pahl, which is very powerful.  The notion that there were Great Masters speaking up on behalf of the slaves has no textual basis.

Personally, I think every adult male Great Master should have died.  They got off lightly.

House Pahl is powerfull, yes, but some members from a younger son of a younger son? they had the name, but i dont believe they where members of the main branch.

 

8 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

Yes it's true, she had good reasons to want revenge but that does not change the fact that she killed someone who did not even drew a breath. You can't get more innocent or vulnerable than that.

not excusing what she did, not at all. but Cercei never had any excuse to be what she is. Mirri, at least does, elevating her above Cercei a little bit (in my eyes)

 

5 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

My logic dictates that since he and his daughters had the best oportunity at poisoning the unsullied than anyone else, they probably did it. And hey might have thought Daenerys wouldn't be that harsh on them.

they were not in the best opportunity to do that, they where the only ones that could not run away.
all others murdered that night, and the nights before were killed by people that disappeared right after, but these 3 agents stayed behind?

Edited by HTN02
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15 minutes ago, HTN02 said:

But there is a lot worth seeing in Amsterdam, so hit me up if you ever go there again!

 

I don't think I'll be able to for some time, but it is on my list. 

16 minutes ago, HTN02 said:

i dont know if you are from the US, but if you are, we have a drink at a bar that's is older than the US :-)

30 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

What is that drink? 

6 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

My logic dictates that since he and his daughters had the best oportunity at poisoning the unsullied than anyone else, they probably did it. And hey might have thought Daenerys wouldn't be that harsh on them. Until then she only payed for information.

I think there's a high chance that they did do it, but in my mind that was probably a perfect opportunity for some framing.

Logically, Dany and her people will think that the wineseller did it, and maybe not look much farther, but like someone said above, it's easy to slip something into a drink. 

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25 minutes ago, HTN02 said:

she was raped quite a few times, and saw alot of people from her village killed by the khalasar that baby's father led...
contrary to Cercei, she has some reason to want revenge...

Yes, I don't think she's as bad as Cersei. But the proper 'target' for her revenge was Drogo, or Daenerys at the very least, not the innocent child. It wasn't poor Rhaego's fault that her village was plundered, I mean he wasn't even born yet!

I definately find Mirri more sympathetic, and she's obviously gone through something horrible, but nothing can justify the murder of an innocent baby.

Edited by Craving Peaches
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10 minutes ago, HTN02 said:

they were not in the best opportunity to do that, they where the only ones that could not run away.
all others murdered that night, and the nights before were killed by people that disappeared right after, but these 3 agents stayed behind?

Well, I hope we'll get some answers to this in the next books.

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