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Daenerys and the Torture of the Wineseller's Daughters - Thoughts?


Craving Peaches
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1 minute ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

I don't think I'll be able to for some time, but it is on my list. 

What is that drink? 

I think there's a high chance that they did do it, but in my mind that was probably a perfect opportunity for some framing.

Logically, Dany and her people will think that the wineseller did it, and maybe not look much farther, but like someone said above, it's easy to slip something into a drink. 

Its a bar, so they have quite a few things :-) if you want something real Dutch, it be Jenever probably :-)

The SotH, until now, have always counted on Terror Tactics, and leaving no attackers to be identified.
Why would they break with that tactic now, for no obvious reason?

1 minute ago, Oana_Mika said:

Well, I hope we'll get some answers to this in the next books.

that may take a while leaving us with all the joy of speculating :fencing:

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3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes, I don't think she's as bad as Cersei. But the proper 'target' for her revenge was Drogo, or Daenerys at the very least, not the innocent child. It wasn't poor Rhaego's fault that her village was plundered, I mean he wasn't even born yet!

I definately find Mirri more sympathetic, and she's obviously gone through something horrible, but nothing can justify the murder of an innocent baby.

Her reason was she thought the child was Baby Hitler.

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2 minutes ago, HTN02 said:

The SotH, until now, have always counted on Terror Tactics, and leaving no attackers to be identified.
Why would they break with that tactic now, for no obvious reason?

5 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

Trying to show that their reach goes everywhere? 

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Just now, SeanF said:

Her reason was she thought the child was Baby Hitler.

Yes, she thought he was the Dothraki anti-christ, but still. Killing someone for something they may or may not do in the fututure is a slippery slope. Unless Miri is a time traveller and has seen the apocalyptic future where Rhaego lived, all she has to go on is a prophecy. And the prophecies are tricksy.

I used to have more sympathy for Mirri because I thought it was left ambiguous whether she did kill Rhaego or whether his death was caused by Daenerys walking into the tent when she was told not to, but you said GRRM had confirmed she killed him so...

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4 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes, I don't think she's as bad as Cersei. But the proper 'target' for her revenge was Drogo, or Daenerys at the very least, not the innocent child. It wasn't poor Rhaego's fault that her village was plundered, I mean he wasn't even born yet!

I definately find Mirri more sympathetic, and she's obviously gone through something horrible, but nothing can justify the murder of an innocent baby.

hmmm, that might be a cultural thing, but if Dany was living here, she still could get an abortion, so im not really inclined to call it a baby yet. she also did get her revenge on Drogo, with how she left him.

It wasnt right. not by a long shot. but for me its not really baby murder. again, i do realize this is something that even in Europe is not that culturally accepted everywere.

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23 minutes ago, HTN02 said:

It wasnt right. not by a long shot. but for me its not really baby murder. again, i do realize this is something that even in Europe is not that culturally accepted everywere.

No, you are right. If she killed the baby before it was born/ had cried and drew breath, then legally it wouldn't count as 'self-existant human life', so not a valid target for murder. It would be a crime of Abortion, not Homicide (at least where I live).

I think the description implies that Rhaego was already dead when he was born, so legally it would not be murder. Certainly not the same as Cersei's streak of baby murders, which all occur after the infant has been born and is being cared for by their mother.

Edit:

After looking over the passage again it seems Rhaego was alive for a short time after birth before dying (of whatever Mirri inflicted him with in the womb). In this case, Mirri is still a baby murderer and not a criminal abortionist.

Edited by Craving Peaches
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27 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I think the description implies that Rhaego was already dead when he was born,

 

"Monstrous," Mirri Maz Duur finished for him. The knight was a powerful man, yet Dany understood in that moment that the maegi was stronger, and crueler, and infinitely more dangerous. "Twisted. I drew him forth myself. He was scaled like a lizard, blind, with the stub of a tail and small leather wings like the wings of a bat. When I touched him, the flesh sloughed off the bone, and inside he was full of graveworms and the stink of corruption. He had been dead for years."

Darkness, Dany thought. The terrible darkness sweeping up behind to devour her. If she looked back she was lost. "My son was alive and strong when Ser Jorah carried me into this tent," she said. "I could feel him kicking, fighting to be born."- AGOT - Daenerys IX

 

And she also felt him move before that

 

She was lying there, holding the egg, when she felt the child move within her … as if he were reaching out, brother to brother, blood to blood. - AGOT - Daenerys IV

 

So he could not "have been dead for years". Plus, Targaryen children might be born with dragon features but graveworms are not part of genetics, they are a completely different form of life. IMO, it was all the result of Mirri's magic.

Edited by Oana_Mika
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Just now, Oana_Mika said:

So he could not "have been dead for years". Plus, Targaryen children might be born with dragon features but graveworms are not part of genetics, they are a completely different form of life. IMO, it was all the result of Mirri's magic.

I agree. If Rhaego was alive after birth, even for a short time, she is a baby murderer. I edited my comment above to reflect this.

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26 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

If Rhaego was alive after birth, even for a short time, she is a baby murderer. 

She is a baby murderer regardless because she killed someone's unborn son, someone who wanted that child and is very scarred after that event, someone who was tricked into exchanging her unborn son's life for the carcass of her husband (Mirri deliberately hid this information from her - what was the price in reality)

Edited by Oana_Mika
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9 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

She is a baby murderer regardless because she killed someone's unborn son, someone who wanted that child and is very scarred after that event, someone who was tricked into exchanging her unborn son's life for the carcass of her husband (Mirri deliberately hid this information from her - what was the price in reality)

I agree it was a horrible thing to do, and in universe, it would be considered baby murder regardless of whether Rhaego was alive after birth for any amount of time or not.

The reason I specified is because where I live, it would not count as a homicide unless Rhaego had lived independently of Daenerys for any length of time after birth. If Rhaego was already dead when he was born, it could not be charged as a homicide where I live because the life destroyed must be 'self-existant', the baby must have been born/breathed and cried. If Rhaego was already dead it would be charged as a crime of abortion instead.

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1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

I agree it was a horrible thing to do, and in universe, it would be considered baby murder regardless of whether Rhaego was alive after birth for any amount of time or not.

The reason I specified is because where I live, it would not count as a homicide unless Rhaego had lived independently of Daenerys for any length of time after birth. If Rhaego was already dead when he was born, it could not be charged as a homicide where I live because the life destroyed must be 'self-existant', the baby must have been born/breathed and cried. If Rhaego was already dead it would be charged as a crime of abortion instead.

Oh, I get it, you look it through the legalities you know where you live, at this time.

I wanted to show you the link where it states that the app was made with Martin's notes https://grrm.livejournal.com/301556.html

Fingers crossed to figure out how to show you the picture from the app regarding Rhaego's death.

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5 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

Oh, I get it, you look it through the legalities you know where you live, at this time.

I know it's horribly pedantic of me but I need to keep the nuances clear in my mind because it's good practice for upcoming tests.

7 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

Fingers crossed to figure out how to show you the picture from the app regarding Rhaego's death.

I couldn't see anything about Rhaego's death so far, but that could be because I was viewing it on a mobile rather than a computer. I'll try again tomorrow on my PC.

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30 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I know it's horribly pedantic of me but I need to keep the nuances clear in my mind because it's good practice for upcoming tests.

I couldn't see anything about Rhaego's death so far, but that could be because I was viewing it on a mobile rather than a computer. I'll try again tomorrow on my PC.

The entry for Mirri says she killed Rhaego out of revenge.  The Dany and Rhaego entries say he was sacrificed by Mirri to revive Drogo (in vegetative form).

Edited by SeanF
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This is one of Dany's worst moments. I understand her rage, frustration and grief but - as she eventually surmises - torture is a bad way of acquiring information.

Like @SeanF said, the only time that torture is ever useful is for times when you need to verify information that you have right in front of you.

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I used to have more sympathy for Mirri because I thought it was left ambiguous whether she did kill Rhaego or whether his death was caused by Daenerys walking into the tent when she was told not to, but you said GRRM had confirmed she killed him so...

Daenerys never even walked into the tent. She was carried into the tent by Ser Jorah after she had fallen unconscious (due to the spell castby Mirri no doubt)

 

Thank you for creating these threads by the way. It's good for us to start talking more about things like this again.

 

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5 hours ago, Oana_Mika said:

Nine. The word was a dagger in her heart. Every night the shadow war was waged anew beneath the stepped pyramids of Meereen. Every morn the sun rose upon fresh corpses, with harpies drawn in blood on the bricks beside them. Any freedman who became too prosperous or too outspoken was marked for death. Nine in one night, though … That frightened her. "Tell me."

Grey Worm answered. "Your servants were set upon as they walked the bricks of Meereen to keep Your Grace's peace. All were well armed, with spears and shields and short swords. Two by two they walked, and two by two they died. Your servants Black Fist and Cetherys were slain by crossbow bolts in Mazdhan's Maze. Your servants Mossador and Duran were crushed by falling stones beneath the river wall. Your servants Eladon Goldenhair and Loyal Spear were poisoned at a wineshop where they were accustomed to stop each night upon their rounds."

Mossador. Dany made a fist. Missandei and her brothers had been taken from their home on Naath by raiders from the Basilisk Isles and sold into slavery in Astapor. Young as she was, Missandei had shown such a gift for tongues that the Good Masters had made a scribe of her. Mossador and Marselen had not been so fortunate. They had been gelded and made into Unsullied. "Have any of the murderers been captured?"

"Your servants have arrested the owner of the wineshop and his daughters. They plead their ignorance and beg for mercy."

They all plead ignorance and beg for mercy. "Give them to the Shavepate. Skahaz, keep each apart from the others and put them to the question."

"It will be done, Your Worship. Would you have me question them sweetly, or sharply?"

"Sweetly, to begin. Hear what tales they tell and what names they give you. It may be they had no part in this." She hesitated. "Nine, the noble Reznak said. Who else?"

"Three freedmen, murdered in their homes," the Shavepate said. "A moneylender, a cobbler, and the harpist Rylona Rhee. They cut her fingers off before they killed her."

The queen flinched. Rylona Rhee had played the harp as sweetly as the Maiden. When she had been a slave in Yunkai, she had played for every highborn family in the city. In Meereen she had become a leader amongst the Yunkish freedmen, their voice in Dany's councils. "We have no captives but this wineseller?"

"None, this one grieves to confess. We beg your pardon."

Mercy, thought Dany. They will have the dragon's mercy. "Skahaz, I have changed my mind. Question the man sharply."

"I could. Or I could question the daughters sharply whilst the father looks on. That will wring some names from him."

"Do as you think best, but bring me names." Her fury was a fire in her belly. "I will have no more Unsullied slaughtered. Grey Worm, pull your men back to their barracks. Henceforth let them guard my walls and gates and person. From this day, it shall be for Meereenese to keep the peace in Meereen. Skahaz, make me a new watch, made up in equal parts of shavepates and freedmen." - A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys II

8 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

. . . that doesn't mean that the contrast with Cersei is the only purpose.

I think it is like the murder of Dareon. Unclear whether the victims were guilty or not.

This is a really good topic and may help us to sort out a major tale in the series - the Azor Ahai story.

I'm not good at parsing the literal plot points in ASOIAF, but I am interested in the literary allusion and analysis in the fate of the wineseller's daughters. To be honest, I think that is sometimes more important to GRRM, too, than the details of something like who put the poison in the wine. 

The torture killing of the singer is of special interest. A few months ago, I was wondering whether the maiming and torturing of singers pointed toward the Azor Ahai legend. I felt that Joffrey (the plump tavern singer), Tyrion (Symon Silver Tongue) and Littlefinger - or Sansa/Alayne? - (Marillion) are symbolically forging Lightbringer when they torture and kill singers. Even though the Azor Ahai story has the three stages (water, a lion and Nissa Nissa), there are more than three tortured singers in ASOIAF. I speculated that Theon "becomes" Abel at Winterfell, for instance, and that puts a nice finishing touch on all the torture that he endured at the hands of Ramsay Bolton. 

And here we have the harpist Rylona Rhee. Harpists may be especially important singers - Rhaegar, Bael the Bard and Mance Rayder were (or are) harpists. And there is almost certainly wordplay on harps and The Harpy. Recall, too, that the whip that Dany was given when she took command of the Unsullied was a named weapon called The Harpy's Fingers. The severing of the harpist's fingers may seem especially personal to Dany. 

But Missandei's brother, Mossador, is also one of the targets of the assassin. In her internal monologue, Dany helpfully reminds the reader here that Missandei is good with tongues. This is both a singing tool (as with Symon Silver Tongue) and a symbolic sword: Ser Ilyn Payne loses his tongue but he becomes the King's Justice, using a sword to cut off heads. He is the last person (as far as we know) to use the sword Ice and he has a silver sword that he hands to Joffrey just before Joffrey begins to choke and die. 

But GRRM gives us another set of Azor Ahai clues with the "sharp" questioning to be inflicted by The Shavepate. It seems too corny to be true, but I think there is "razor" wordplay in the Azor Ahai name. (In fact, I have wondered whether the name could be a shortened version of "razor a hair.") We know that the hair / heir pun is at the heart of determining Robert's true heir; characters such as Arya, Dany and Cersei have their heads shaved, hair burned off by a dragon, or hair cut short to be disguised as a boy. Rickon names his dog Shaggy and refuses to have his hair cut. The hair references in the book go on and on.

I've written elsewhere that I think Kraznys mo Nakloz - the guy who sells the Unsullied to Dany - is a symbolic King Aerys. What if he was not a one-off, but part of a set of symbolic people from the Targaryen dynasty? A lot of these Astapori and Meereenese nobles could be symbolic Targaryens. This would help to explain why the Shavepate has a shaved head: we know that Aegon V shaved his head when he was accompanying Dunk on their travels around Westeros. 

So this bit of business with the wineseller's daughters may relate to the motif of maiming singers and to the Azor Ahai legend. Anything else?

Years ago, I tried to figure out the meaning of Tyrion's Tysha interlude. Tysha is referred to as a "crofter's daughter," and I thought it was intriguing that this reference is made more than once. So I played around with anagrams of that term. There are usually lots of possibilities in an anagram of that many letters, but I remember deciding that the word "truth" was part of one correct solution. It made so much sense to me that Tyrion would make it a quest to seek the truth ("Where do whores go?") that he had so briefly enjoyed in his youth. The truth was cruelly taken from him, tortured before his eyes and sent into exile by his father with help from his brother. 

I think the author uses those kinds of anagrams from time to time throughout the series and that "the wineseller's daughters" is another example of an anagram that allows the author to thinly veil a character he can't logically introduce in a literal form at this location or time in the plot. What is the anagram here? As with other anagrams, there is more than one possibility but I think the intended allusion here is "wall deserter."

Just as Ned Stark first listened to Gared and then beheaded him, Dany's first thought is to be sweet but then sharp. Bran doesn't know what Gared told Ned - we assume he wanted to inform Winterfell that the Others had definitely returned - but Ned killed him anyway, in spite of his message or maybe because of his message. 

Arya killed Dareon, who was also a Wall deserter - and a singer. 

Why would "wall deserter" be killing the Unsullied and others of Dany's allies? I'm not sure there is more logic than that people are on one team in ASOIAF or another team, and they kill people who are not on their own team. But "deserter" is also an anagram of "red trees." Maybe all deserters are allied with the Children of the Forest or the wildlings and will kill anyone who does not advance the interests of those allies. 

Another possibility is forming in my muddled head, though, and it may bring us back to Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa or, at least, The Maiden and Ser Galladon of Morne. 

In legends of the Celts, I believe there is more than one story of a Lady of the Lake who give a special sword to a worthy warrior. GRRM has given us variations on this story in the Florian and Jonquil tale as well as the Ser Galladon story and, possibly, the Nissa Nissa story. We know that Nissa Nissa is killed by her beloved husband in order to create the weapon he desires. What if we are seeing other maidens or women being tortured and/or killed in order to create the weapons coveted by our main characters?

Tysha. Lollys Stokeworth. Jeyne Poole. Pretty Pia. Brave Danny Flint. All of Ramsay's girls. Maybe Catelyn at the Red Wedding and Lysa flying out the Moon Door. Maybe Aerys raping his wife was part of his attempt to hatch a dragon egg. Aerys also singles out Lady Darklyn for torture. Cersei "rapes" Taena Merryweather when she is rising to her power as regent. Euron Greyjoy rapes Aeron Greyjoy's wife, so Aeron kills her. Aeron accepts Euron's gift, enslaving and forcing sex on the Dusky Woman. As pointed out earlier in this thread, Falyse Stokeworth is tortured to create the weapon called Ser Robert Strong. Many women die in childbirth in ASOIAF but their children (sometimes shown to be monsters or weapons) go forth into the world. 

(It's interesting to note, too, that Dany promises to give Ser Jorah a first-rate sword and -I believe- she gives a nice one to Ser Barristan. But Ser Jorah seems to be the one who gets tortured in that pairing, primarily after he leaves Dany and hooks up with Tyrion. I strongly suspect that his presence was one missing ingredient that allowed Dany's dragons to hatch after generations of her ancestors had failed in their attempts.)

Do the tortured women get to choose who receives the special weapon? Is it up to Nissa Nissa to pick her "Azor Ahai," not vice versa?

GRRM has given us at least one cross-gender variation on the Lady in the Lake story because Jaime is tortured and loses an arm; he is in the bath that Brienne enters and he is the one who presents the sword to the warrior (Brienne). 

Jeyne Poole is tortured but Theon is also tortured. Maybe this is where the Lady of the Lake (or Lady of the Poole) and the "maimed singer" are united into one story. Lady Dunstan seems to be the smith who reforges Theon in the crypt at Winterfell, giving him back his name. She tells him the story of her consensual love affair with Brandon Stark. Maybe that consensual sex is the key to stop the violence against women and the consequent weapons that result. Or maybe consensual sex just makes better weapons. 

If violence against women is a "necessary" ingredient for making a powerful weapon, it's possible that the torture of the wineseller's daughters was part of the process for forging Dany's dragonriding ability. She had the dragons before (the violence inflicted on Mirri allowed the eggs to hatch), but now she can ride them. 

I think it is right and important to discuss Justice in the context of this legend or pattern or parable - whatever you want to call it. I think the sword Ice is what remains from something that used to be called Justice - the author wants us to debate the nature of justice and whether it exists in Westeros or Essos. Has Justice been lost? Has it been twisted to the point that the King's Justice is represented by the creepy, wordless, menacing Ser Ilyn? Is it just that Ned beheaded Gared? Jeor Mormont would not have done it. Jeor let Jon Snow live after his desertion attempt. Is it just for Dany to order the torture of the wineseller's daughters? Do we accept the definition of "mercy" that Arya has learned?

In turn, this relates back to Tysha (if I'm right about the Crofter's Daughter anagram) as the personification of "truth." There is a missing sword called Truth that belonged to the Rogare family, who married into both the Targaryen and Martell families. Where is Truth?

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16 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

After two Unsullied are poisoned at a wine shop, Daenerys has the Wineseller and his two daughters arrested. They seem to be the only suspects, thought it is also possible that the Wine was poisoned independantly by an agent of the Sons of the Harpy, or that the supplier or producer of the Wine had it poisoned. The Wineseller may have known about this, he might not have. There are also various combinations such as the seller being guilty but the daughters being innocent etc.

At first, Daenerys wishes to have them questioned 'sweetly', but after the murder of one of her councillors, Daenerys gets angry and changes her mind, and decides to have the daughters tortured in front of the father instead.

The issue is that it is very unlikely they had something to do with the murder of the councillor, as by that point they were all already in custody. So it feels  like they are being treated more harshley for a crime they did not commit.

Also, in my opinnion, Torture is not really a good way to determine whether someone is innocent or guilty. Because they will almost always just tell you what you want to hear in order to make the pain stop. So in terms of finding out whether they were involved with the poisoning or not, it would be kind of useless. They will just end up telling the Shavepate and Daenerys what he wants hear. Danerys herself alludes to this some time after giving the order, though she makes no move to stop it, which is a little odd as it seems to suggest she knows it's futile but doesn't care at that point.

Of course, torture is standard operating practice for almost everyone in power in the series, but it does seem a bit weird that Daenerys says it's futile but doesn'tappear to make any move to stop the ongoing torture. She is essentially just waiting for a confession that she suspects will be of dubious legitimacy anyway.

I have to say, I don't think this is one of Daenerys' best moments. Having two daughters tortured in front of the father because they might have been involved in a crime is a bit cruel in my opinion. And it isn't even useful, by her own admission. So what was the point?

I think she's desperate at this point in the story.  She lacks one very important thing, for a ruler: A master of whisperers.  She has no capacity for spying and because of that she's continually being outmaneuvered.  Stooping to torturing people she's not even sure are involved to try and gain information wouldn't be necessary if she had a network of spies.

It actually brings up a very interesting point that I hadn't really thought about before.....to successfully rule in this story you do need to have spies.  Anyone trying to navigate the halls of power without that advantage fails....Ned got entirely played by multiple spy networks.

So who is going to fulfill this role for Dany?  Cersie has Qyburn, Faegon is going to have Varys...who will fill this necessary role for Dany?  There's 3 potential candidates that I can see....Tyrion, Littlefinger and Arya.  Tyrion displayed aptitude for manipulating two hostile spy networks at once (Varys and Littlefinger) and actually got things to work out in his favor several times. 

The TV show kind of predisposed everyone to assume that Tyrion would become Dany's Hand...and he did a good job in that role in Kings Landing....but he'd likely be just as good at master of whisperers.

Littlefinger is...well....Littlefinger....he's good at it, but he'd have to see some kind of advantage to serving Dany in this way.  Bribery has worked on him in the past, she could offer him an additional lordship should her forces prevail.

And Arya....I definitely do not think that she's going to be like show-Arya.  I think much of the violence and killing her character did on the show will actually be Lady Stoneheart in the books.  So, what will Arya do?  With faceless man training she can blend effortlessly, adopt the look of other people, etc.  All very good skills for a spy.  And further...she's already displayed a talent for warging animals to gain information.  She'd be an excellent spy, and her youth might help her form a network of children, much like Varys and Littlefinger have done.  She'd make an excellent master of whisperers for Dany, particularly if her favorite brother, Jon, sides with her.

I suppose we could throw in Missandei as a wild-card, since she's clearly a genius.  That doesn't feel like her role for me though...

Edited by Ring3r
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The harpy will not willingly accept the end of slavery.  The harpy is not interested in the wrong or the right of slavery.  There is a line in Fevre Dream that basically says slavery must end.  Better if it ends in peace but if there must be fire and blood to end it then so be it.  The crime took place in the premises owned and operated by the wine shop owner and his family.  The only customers to get targeted were Dany's men.  The family had the means and the motive to commit the crime.  It would be silly to let them off the hook without twisting their arms to get some info.  Instructions to interrogate them separately is a very good strategy.  The family would have been summarily executed in Westeros and their heads put on pikes just on slim suspicion.  Leniency and a generous benefit of the doubt can be given in peace time but this is a war zone.  The harpies are using terrorism to force the return of slavery.  Slavery did not end without bloodshed in the U.S.  Acts of necessary cruelty happened on both sides before slavery was finally ended. 

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8 hours ago, SeanF said:

The entry for Mirri says she killed Rhaego out of revenge.  The Dany and Rhaego entries say he was sacrificed by Mirri to revive Drogo (in vegetative form).

Also Mirri claims Rhaego was 'dead for years' while Daenerys seems to think he was alive much more recently. I think Mirri was probably being bitter and spiteful at that point.

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3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Also Mirri claims Rhaego was 'dead for years' while Daenerys seems to think he was alive much more recently. I think Mirri was probably being bitter and spiteful at that point.

Nothing "probably" about it. Pregnancy lasts nine months, it is impossible for an unborn baby to have been "dead for years".

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