The Pink Letter Debate

[Mithras]

 

[Corvo the Crow]

9 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

All of these things were at the behest of Melisandre (and to a lesser extent his wife) though. She isn't there to advise him this time. And with her gone we see he's not really that committed to the whole R'hlorr thing anyway.

He is deceptive in warfare too. But penning a fake letter to have Jon come doesn't seem like something he would do, to me. Also the language used in the letter sounds like someone who knew Ramsay well, as others pointed out. So if it was him, then Theon likely wrote it on his behalf.

I agree he is willing to use underhanded tactics. I just don't think the letter is the sort of underhanded thing he would do.

Quilling deceptive letters is exactly the kind of thing he'll do and we are given more than a hint toward it. When Maester Tybald of the Pissed Robes is brought to Stannis he still has 2 Ravens that can fly to Winterfell left. Stannis orders the birds to be left while Tybald is taken to custody. This tells one thing and one thing only, he'll use those birds. If he's using deceptive letters wih Boltons, why not with Jon who has denied Stannis' offer time and again?

[Craving Peaches]

5 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Quilling deceptive letters is exactly the kind of thing he'll do and we are given more than a hint toward it. When Maester Tybald of the Pissed Robes is brought to Stannis he still has 2 Ravens that can fly to Winterfell left. Stannis orders the birds to be left while Tybald is taken to custody. This tells one thing and one thing only, he'll use those birds.

Keeping the birds means he wants the option of sending a letter. It doesn't mean he is specifically thinking of Jon. There are other people he would want to send letters to. His wife, for one, since his heir, Shireen, is with her. Or he could be keeping them to send to other northern houses to demand support.

5 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

If he's using deceptive letters wih Boltons

When did this happen? Been ages since I read ADwD.

[Corvo the Crow]

16 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Keeping the birds means he wants the option of sending a letter. It doesn't mean he is specifically thinking of Jon. There are other people he would want to send letters to. His wife, for one, since his heir, Shireen, is with her. Or he could be keeping them to send to other northern houses to demand support.

These birds are Winterfell birds. They go to one place and one place only, Winterfell. Unless he wants to quill a zaporozhian cossack letter to Roose, only thing I'm seeing him using these birds are for deception. He has sent letters to Wall before and probably still has Wall birds left. I've added the quote in the page before, Maester Tybald himself says most birds know to go to only one castle(bad writing, I must say, poor world building but whatever).

 

16 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

When did this happen? Been ages since I read ADwD.

Not shown but look above.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Corvo the Crow

[Aebram]

Quote

This Asha chapter, of which we saw only a fragment

We did? When? Where? I missed that somehow.

[BlackLightning]

To this day, I maintain that I think the person who wrote the Pink Letter is Littlefinger.

He wants Jon Snow to die, the North to implode and the Wall to disintegrate because that sets the stage for his puppet queen, Sansa.

[The Sleeper]

It's Ramsay and an attempt at blackmail. He wants Jon to keep the Arya fraud a secret and threatens to expose Mance if Jon reveals Jeyne's identity. Of course as Theon and Jeyne have not arrived at Castle Black Jon has no idea what Ramsay is talking about. 

From Ramsay's perspective it is not such a bad deal. Jon has to turn over a bunch of strangers, a steward's daughter and Theon, who Jon has every reason to hate. And because he is Ramsay he peppers it with threats.

One issue, that generally isn't brought up, is whether Mance is cooperating involuntarily or not. He has no loyalty to the Watch, Jon or Melissandre. There is nothing stopping him form making a deal once caught. 

[Corvo the Crow]

On 10/26/2022 at 9:06 AM, Mithras said:

 

I must say, this is the only good Ramsay theory I've seen so far, the only one that makes sense.

[Angus Thermopyle]

Why is Melisandra never considered to have written it. She could have saw in the flames that Stannis needed help and Jon has too much honor to just abandon his post. Also, she is the only one who knows Mance was on a mission to get Arya. The only trouble is Theon being mentioned. 

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, Angus Thermopyle said:

Why is Melisandra never considered to have written it. She could have saw in the flames that Stannis needed help and Jon has too much honor to just abandon his post. Also, she is the only one who knows Mance was on a mission to get Arya. The only trouble is Theon being mentioned. 

Oh she is one of the ‘suspects’. 

[Mark of the West]

On 10/26/2022 at 7:14 PM, BlackLightning said:

To this day, I maintain that I think the person who wrote the Pink Letter is Littlefinger.

He wants Jon Snow to die, the North to implode and the Wall to disintegrate because that sets the stage for his puppet queen, Sansa.

This is interesting. It would fit his duplicity. Though, how would he, from the Vale, know about the battle in real time? 

[Ran]

On 10/27/2022 at 8:29 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

I must say, this is the only good Ramsay theory I've seen so far, the only one that makes sense.

What seems new to you in this that I'm missing? It's pretty much exactly what I and others have supposed all along when we argued that Ramsay obviously wrote the letter.

[SeanF]

12 minutes ago, Ran said:

What seems new to you in this that I'm missing? It's pretty much exactly what I and others have supposed all along when we argued that Ramsay obviously wrote the letter.

I think Ramsay wrote it.  But, it doesn’t ring true.  It reads as if it’s been written by a man who has lost, and is now lashing out.  There’s none of the cool gloating that’s contained in his letter to Asha Greyjoy.

[Ran]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

I think Ramsay wrote it.  But, it doesn’t ring true.  It reads as if it’s been written by a man who has lost, and is now lashing out.  There’s none of the cool gloating that’s contained in his letter to Asha Greyjoy.

Because he lost "Arya". He's furious about it, obviously. What is he furious about when he writes his other letters?

Edited October 29, 2022 by Ran

[Springwatch]

Most likely Mance broke under torture and told Ramsay everything. This is not very acceptable to a lot of fans, because of Mance being such a five star hero - but grrm loves subverting tropes. No-one really knows how they'd react under torture  - being brave in battle is not going to help, and Ramsay has another tool to use on Mance that might work even better - flaying the spearwives in front of him.

[SeanF]

49 minutes ago, Ran said:

Because he lost "Arya". He's furious about it, obviously. What is he furious about when he writes his other letters?

He’s lost his chew toy, yes, but it’s still (in my eyes) a letter that’s been written by a man who’s seeing everything go tits up.

Edited October 29, 2022 by SeanF

[kissdbyfire]

7 minutes ago, SeanF said:

He’s lost the girl he loves torturing, yes, but it’s still (in my eyes) a letter that’s been written by a man who’s seeing everything going tits up.

Maybe he has plenty of reasons for that. I mean, the truth of the fArya plot coming out alone poses a great risk for the Boltons, no? We know some already know about Bran & Rickon escaping. I also think it’s possible some of the northerners in Winterfell may be aware that Jeyne isn’t Arya. So I think it makes perfect sense that Ramsay is enraged and scared. 
The other common arguments against Ramsay being the author make no sense whatsoever to me. One, that Ramsay’s hand ‘seems different’ - it doesn’t. The other is the repeated use of ‘bastard’, and that one is even harder for me to understand. There’s nothing Ramsay hates more than being called a bastard… it makes sense that he assumes Jon, another bastard, will feel similarly. People do that, we tend to assume others are/feel like we do. So in his attempt to taunt Jon, he uses the worst possible insult he can think of, calling him a bastard. 
 

Ramsay is, imo, the only option that checks all the right boxes, makes perfect sense, and fits w/ what we know. 

[Corvo the Crow]

7 hours ago, Ran said:

What seems new to you in this that I'm missing? It's pretty much exactly what I and others have supposed all along when we argued that Ramsay obviously wrote the letter.

I don't recall reading a "Stannis won but escaped" theory, so that is what's new to me.

Edited October 29, 2022 by Corvo the Crow

[Ran]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I don't recall reading a "Stannis won but escaped" theory, so that is what's new to me.

Ah, I've always figured he'd have a phyrric sort-of victory.

[Corvo the Crow]

2 minutes ago, Ran said:

Ah, I've always figured he'd have a phyrric sort-of victory.

Stannis? That's my take as well but I always assumed the victory would be over Freys and Ramsay both and not just the one.