George R. R. Martin on The Unsullied

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

Dany's Unsullied are the finest soldiers in the world. 

[Rondo]

They are the finest soldiers in the world.  What they lack in numbers they make up for in skills.  The Dothraki horselords will make up the main attack force.  The Unsullied are the special forces of Dany's team.  

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 10/24/2022 at 11:32 PM, Only 89 selfies today said:

From our favorite author himself.  Listen to what George said about Dany's Unsullied soldiers.  This should put away all doubts as to how well they will do in Westeros.  The Unsullied will be superb in battle.  They will be better with the addition of the Dothraki.  Dany will have the advantage in battle in Westeros.  

The arguments that The Unsullied are ineffective soldiers do not hold water.  

 

 

 Amazed at the dedication of those who maintain their ground and look for relevant clues.   The Unsullied are awesome.  They are my favorite fighting unit. 

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

On 10/24/2022 at 11:32 PM, Only 89 selfies today said:

From our favorite author himself.  Listen to what George said about Dany's Unsullied soldiers.  This should put away all doubts as to how well they will do in Westeros.  The Unsullied will be superb in battle.  They will be better with the addition of the Dothraki.  Dany will have the advantage in battle in Westeros.  

The arguments that The Unsullied are ineffective soldiers do not hold water.  

 

 

That answered the question and won the debate for your side.  You can lead most horses to water and they will drink.  There are some who would rather die of thirst.  

[Craving Peaches]

People keep on going on about how great the Dothraki will also be but at no point in the video are they spoken about...

[Finley McLeod]

The author intended for the Unsullied to be a superior fighting force to what Westeros can call together.  That is what matters.  Things like testosterone doesn't matter.  Most of what Westeros can call together are not going to be in prime physical condition.  Where as the Unsullied are all in fine physical fitness and are mentally ready for battle.  The Dothraki riders are also fit and ready for battle.  

[Craving Peaches]

6 minutes ago, Finley McLeod said:

Things like testosterone doesn't matter. 

Yes it does actually, it matters quite a lot in terms of how effective the Unsullied would realistically be.

[Brother Seamus]

On 10/25/2022 at 6:35 AM, Rondo said:

Well done.  That settles the debate for me.  Daenerys will bring a very formidable force to Westeros consisting of Unsullied and Dothraki.  

Dany will have a huge army when she gets to westeros:

unsullied

at least one dothraki khalasar of 5,000-10,000, maybe more

several thousand freedmen from slaver's bay

most or all of victarion's ironborn

two or three of the sellsword companies now at mereen

tens of thousands of freedmen from volantis and other city between mereeen and volantis

several tens of thousands from lys, pentos, myr and/or tyrosh some or all of which she will conquer before sailing to westeros

thousands of random others who flock to her banners from all over essos

some kind of force, probably mostly naval, from Braavos, which will throw its weight and funding behind her when they see what has happened to Volantis and the other cities of essos

I am probably forgetting some.

i predict something in the neighborhood of 200,000 total, by far the greatest army ever assembled in the known history of planetos. and don't forget the dragons.

she will be unstoppable, and but for the others would conquer westeros quickly. but, before she completes her conquest, she realizes that the invasion of the others is more important.

 

 

[Angel Eyes]

12 hours ago, Finley McLeod said:

The author intended for the Unsullied to be a superior fighting force to what Westeros can call together.  That is what matters.  Things like testosterone doesn't matter.  Most of what Westeros can call together are not going to be in prime physical condition.  Where as the Unsullied are all in fine physical fitness and are mentally ready for battle.  The Dothraki riders are also fit and ready for battle.  

That's if she gets the Dothraki. She could just as easily keel over from her troublesome bowel movements and die.

[Only 89 selfies today]

On 10/25/2022 at 6:07 PM, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Yup. Robert's fear of the Dothraki and now this confirmation from GM of the superiority of the Unsullied are proof that they are able to deliver victories for Dany when she gets to Westeros. 

The Unsullied can and they will deliver victories for Dany in Westeros.  The Dragons and the Khalasars complete her military.  Infantry, Cavalry, and Air Force.  The remnants of Victarion's fleet will be the Navy. 

[Angel Eyes]

2 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

The Unsullied can and they will deliver victories for Dany in Westeros.  The Dragons and the Khalasars complete her military.  Infantry, Cavalry, and Air Force.  The remnants of Victarion's fleet will be the Navy. 

That's if they don't get whittled down by the Sons of the Harpy.

[astarkchoice]

The issue is of course historical fantasy meeting historic reality here.....the unsullied simply shouldnt work  the eunch thing is stupid

HOWEVER grmm says they work and they exist  therefore in our little community those who love military history will have to find a middle ground or ways to 'make them work'. To compensate for their inpracticaly weak bodies we must assume them to be extremely skilled both as individuals and as a unit.

The feats they desribe doing for training seem to indicate  stupidly high stamina levels for regular men let alone eunchs. They are dull to pain which doesnt do that much in battle.

Tactic wise the fact that they can assemble in pitch black at night , march fast  all day , climb mountains/walls , and small forces of them can be commited to missions otherd would refuse as suicidaly outnumbered or have 0 way of escape (attacks on camps  , holding a fort , assasinations where they  all charge towards an individual etc ) are all useful.

Missle wise as eunchs if one of the 3 spears are like pilums it think the womens record for javelins is like 50-70m ..so badly outranged by crossbows,slings and archers.

Edited May 24, 2023 by astarkchoice

[John Suburbs]

On 10/24/2022 at 11:32 PM, Only 89 selfies today said:

They will be better with the addition of the Dothraki. 

And dragons. Don't forget dragons.

[astarkchoice]

On 11/7/2022 at 7:06 AM, Craving Peaches said:

People keep on going on about how great the Dothraki will also be but at no point in the video are they spoken about...

Shit we dont even know for sure if they are comming.....they are pretty embedded in the whole slave.trade ! dany and drogon  may simply find some hidden artifact from thei century of blood  or.learn some brief lesson in her pov there (such as bonding with a dragon the way dothraki bond to horses) ...then burn  vaes dothrak to the ground!!!

As for the dothraki where fantasy meets military history for westeros they ahve 2 major drawbacks 1) without armour theyd have to be stupidly good horsemen, archers, swordsmen and co ordinate like a flock of birds/ants to counter their lack of armour and 2) yearlong winters are comming...so its hard to see how any medieval force wages war during these periods in westeros let alone one so focused on horse power.

[Lord Varys]

It is kind of childish to try to downplay real powerful forces in this fantasy world by citing real world historical military knowledge. This is a fantasy world, and certain groups and factions are introduced because they have plot relevance. Especially in Dany's plot it is very much unthinkable that certain groups there are introduced to die early or fail. That includes the dragons, of course, but also the Unsullied and the Dothraki.

The Unsullied are professional soldiers, one of the few we see in this entire fictional universe. The Dothraki also have a powerful martial culture. Westeros doesn't have that on a broad societal level as lots of hints about the quality of the common levies show. But even if they were all great soldiers, the continent is now in disarray, there is no chance that the Westerosi can build a united front against Daenerys, so her troops should easily triumph.

Aegon can at best hope to take the Iron Throne ... but not to crush the Lannisters in the West, Stannis in the North, Euron at sea, or any other resistance he might face. Also, it is of course ridiculous that people who hate each other deeply due to past grievances like Robert's Rebellion, the War of the Five Kings and especially the Red Wedding and everything that's following that before Dany shows up ... will just forget all that to fight together against a Targaryen queen with all trappings of legitimacy and real power.

Even the threat of the Others might not be enough to unite all of Westeros. But Daenerys definitely is not going to pull this off.

Also we have the fact that only powers on the vicinity have really untapped military resources. Dorne and the Vale, essentially. They won't march their entire strength into battles that will take place hundreds and thousands of leagues away. Not in the middle of winter. In fact, the Vale might not give a damn about Dany unless she is stupid enough to land there (which would make no sense at all). If they play a role at all they would have to leave the Vale by ship soon. Dorne might oppose her but likely only with troops that will join Aegon before she lands. If Doran has already marshaled 20,000 men now, they won't sent more if they are defeated. Not if Dorne's entire strength is just about 30,000 or so men.

The Riverlands are done, the Westermen are not likely to ever defend Aegon or oppose Daenerys, the North is still tearing itself apart (and will soon face the undead). The only which could try to marshal an army to challenge Dany on land would be the Reach ... but they might lack motivation to do so. Both because of the Ironborn problem and their original affiliation with the Lannister regime. If the Tyrells and most of their bannermen oppose Aegon's rise to the throne, they would be natural allies of Daenerys later on. If not, then there could be a Field of Fire like battle there called the Field of a Thousand Arrows where the superior Dothraki archers and riders crush the chivalry of the Reach like they crushed the Sarnori.

George clearly plays up the effectiveness of (superior) archers against cavalry. We might see the first iteration of that when the Golden Company archers crush Mace Tyrell's mounted knights if/when they descend on Storm's End, but another such thing would be the Dothraki wielding dragonbone bows to devastating effect against enemy cavalry. They can shoot from horseback in general, and such battle tactic seem to be completely unknown in Westeros. Westerosi archers and crossbowmen seem to operate entirely on foot.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

On 10/30/2022 at 9:26 AM, astarkchoice said:

The strength of dorne is still untapped , about half the north ,westerlands and riverlands and stormlands strength still there and alllmost all the crownlands. The ironborn has jsut started their warfare and the reachs manpowwr was barely touched in the war

Dang waltzing in and steamrolling the others and Westeros would be an absolute dog shit way to end the series.

[Lady Stonehearts Simp]

Just now, Lady Stonehearts Simp said:

Dang waltzing in and steamrolling the others and Westeros would be an absolute dog shit way to end the series.

I could perhaps see her bringing the super army to Westeros, dying to the Others, and then her army fractures and tears Westeros apart 

[astarkchoice]

31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is kind of childish to try to downplay real powerful forces in this fantasy world by citing real world historical military knowledge. This is a fantasy world, and certain groups and factions are introduced because they have plot relevance. Especially in Dany's plot it is very much unthinkable that certain groups there are introduced to die early or fail. That includes the dragons, of course, but also the Unsullied and the Dothraki.

The Unsullied are professional soldiers, one of the few we see in this entire fictional universe. The Dothraki also have a powerful martial culture. Westeros doesn't have that on a broad societal level as lots of hints about the quality of the common levies show. But even if they were all great soldiers, the continent is now in disarray, there is no chance that the Westerosi can build a united front against Daenerys, so her troops should easily triumph.

Aegon can at best hope to take the Iron Throne ... but not to crush the Lannisters in the West, Stannis in the North, Euron at sea, or any other resistance he might face. Also, it is of course ridiculous that people who hate each other deeply due to past grievances like Robert's Rebellion, the War of the Five Kings and especially the Red Wedding and everything that's following that before Dany shows up ... will just forget all that to fight together against a Targaryen queen with all trappings of legitimacy and real power.

Even the threat of the Others might not be enough to unite all of Westeros. But Daenerys definitely is not going to pull this off.

Also we have the fact that only powers on the vicinity have really untapped military resources. Dorne and the Vale, essentially. They won't march their entire strength into battles that will take place hundreds and thousands of leagues away. Not in the middle of winter. In fact, the Vale might not give a damn about Dany unless she is stupid enough to land there (which would make no sense at all). If they play a role at all they would have to leave the Vale by ship soon. Dorne might oppose her but likely only with troops that will join Aegon before she lands. If Doran has already marshaled 20,000 men now, they won't sent more if they are defeated. Not if Dorne's entire strength is just about 30,000 or so men.

The Riverlands are done, the Westermen are not likely to ever defend Aegon or oppose Daenerys, the North is still tearing itself apart (and will soon face the undead). The only which could try to marshal an army to challenge Dany on land would be the Reach ... but they might lack motivation to do so. Both because of the Ironborn problem and their original affiliation with the Lannister regime. If the Tyrells and most of their bannermen oppose Aegon's rise to the throne, they would be natural allies of Daenerys later on. If not, then there could be a Field of Fire like battle there called the Field of a Thousand Arrows where the superior Dothraki archers and riders crush the chivalry of the Reach like they crushed the Sarnori.

George clearly plays up the effectiveness of (superior) archers against cavalry. We might see the first iteration of that when the Golden Company archers crush Mace Tyrell's mounted knights if/when they descend on Storm's End, but another such thing would be the Dothraki wielding dragonbone bows to devastating effect against enemy cavalry. They can shoot from horseback in general, and such battle tactic seem to be completely unknown in Westeros. Westerosi archers and crossbowmen seem to operate entirely on foot.

Hmm few points there

 

The riverlands had enough strength to oppose tywins under 20 thousand troops marching west so roughly ecen numbers , the north has still around 15-20k troops left, tywins 18-20k forces are still in play as are the survivors of oxcross  , the stormlands took a beating  but still have about 20k troops and the reach is about 100k strong..they can commit about 20k troops and still  have a massive force reserve. Stannis has apparently 20k mercs.incomming  and the ironborn are largely untapped yet

 

Dornish have fought with cavalry archers so its not unknown and dragonbone is very rare

Edited May 24, 2023 by astarkchoice

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

The riverlands had enough strength to oppose tywins under 20 thousand troops marching west so roughly ecen numbers , the north has still around 15-20k troops left, tywins 18-20k forces are still in play as are the survivors of oxcross  , the stormlands took a beating  but still have about 20k troops and the reach is about 100k strong..they can commit about 20k troops and still  have a massive force reserve. Stannis has apparently 20k mercs.incomming too.

That is irrelevant as the Riverlands are in ruins now and not likely to commit themselves to fighting yet another pretender who most likely is not going to threaten them. They are avenging themselves on their current enemies. And if they are done bathing in Lannister and Frey blood before Dany arrives they are likely to go home rather than fight and die for a cause that's clearly not their own.

The only difference there could be Targaryen loyalists in the Riverlands who end up siding with Aegon and who might then, in that capacity, fight against Dany. But they could just as well switch to her side. Impossible to say.

Stannis' sellswords have to be hired and moved ... what madman is going to sign up with a guy whose seat of power is Castle Black?! If he gets any sellswords they would be used in the North, not in a fight against Daenerys.

3 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Dornish have fought with cavalry archers so its not unknown and dragonbone is very rare

The Dornish that will commit themselves should join Aegon soon and then fight and bleed and die in Aegon's campaigns prior to Dany's arrival. Sure enough, perhaps the bulk of Doran's 20,000 or so will survive all those campaigns, but it will just be 20,000. Not nearly enough to mount a real resistance against Daenerys' invasion.

Dragonbone is rare ... but it is in the story for a reason. We don't have a weird hierarchy of bow efficacy just because it is fun to have that - if it were we could have hierarchies on strength of armor, sharpness of swords, thickness of walls, etc. We do have such a hierarchy because it will become important. We already saw goldenheart bows in action in AFfC and ADwD and we will see dragonbone bows with Dany's Dothraki. Nobody is saying tens of thousands of Dothraki will wield them - a couple of hundred or thousands would be enough. And they definitely would have to have that number or else we wouldn't have heard that the Dothraki do have such bows. There would be much more such bows than Valyrian steel weapons, since dragons roamed and died in Essos for thousands of years ... more than enough bones to make a lot of bows from.

With the dragonbone bows the Dothraki could crush an army of hundreds of armored knights before they even reach them. But, of course, their riding skills and ability to shoot from horseback even with common bows should enable them also to harass and crush baggage trains, outriders, scouts, and the like. Westeros as a whole is not prepared to actual face an all-out cavalry force.

In any case, though, the main reason why Daenerys shouldn't face much problems isn't numbers. It is that Westeros is deeply divided right now. These people won't work together, period. Perhaps not even against the Others. But certainly not against a woman who can reasonably enough claim to be their rightful queen. The people who are not spent or dead by the time she shows up will likely see her and her cause more as an opportunity for their own gains - like Euron and Doran and Aegon already did - than somebody they have to crush. So far nobody has a direct quarrel with her. And the fresh wounds of the War of the Five Kings and the aftermath are much more painful than whatever quarrels dead people once had with Rhaegar or Aerys. Jaime is the only Usurper's Dog left ... and he isn't even a lord in his own right.

If Dany has to fight armies it will be pretty small armies, compared to Westeros' actual military potential. And if she truly brings the entire strength she might be able to marshal in Essos - which she might have to so people can defeat the Others - then most such armies are pretty likely to capitulate rather than insist to die on the battlefield. Aegon's real loyalists might fight if they can't reach a compromise, but nobody else should. Nobody but another Targaryen pretender would have a real quarrel with Dany. Euron certainly might be another danger, but less because of military strength and more because of sorcery. And Stannis might already be dead by then.

[Angel Eyes]

8 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

The issue is of course historical fantasy meeting historic reality here.....the unsullied simply shouldnt work  the eunch thing is stupid

HOWEVER grmm says they work and they exist  therefore in our little community those who love military history will have to find a middle ground or ways to 'make them work'. To compensate for their inpracticaly weak bodies we must assume them to be extremely skilled both as individuals and as a unit.

The feats they desribe doing for training seem to indicate  stupidly high stamina levels for regular men let alone eunchs. They are dull to pain which doesnt do that much in battle.

Tactic wise the fact that they can assemble in pitch black at night , march fast  all day , climb mountains/walls , and small forces of them can be commited to missions otherd would refuse as suicidaly outnumbered or have 0 way of escape (attacks on camps  , holding a fort , assasinations where they  all charge towards an individual etc ) are all useful.

Missle wise as eunchs if one of the 3 spears are like pilums it think the womens record for javelins is like 50-70m ..so badly outranged by crossbows,slings and archers.

Well, GRRM emphasizes realism in his work so when it doesn't match it sticks out like a sore thumb (like Anguy's steel liver and sex drive which is nearly equivalent to a one-month rental for a pirate fleet).