George R. R. Martin on The Unsullied

[astarkchoice]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

But they landed scattered all over the place not in one cohesive unit.

Yep and thats probably the most diciplined non eunuch force in all of planetos!! 

That said they did choose to sail to an area litteraly called the stormlands and lo and behold they are scattered by a storm!! They probably picked some one of the worst landing sites for a largescale naval invasion.... not too far from 'shipbreaker bay' (whos name  tells us all we need to know about the waters there ) 

[James Arryn]

First, horses for courses. There’s not really anything like ‘the best soldiers’ unless everyone is operating within a narrow field of equipment and tactics. Instead you have different types of troops better suited to deal with certain other types but vulnerable to yet other types. And sometimes those strength/vulnerabilities are situational. A phalanx type soldier, in conjunction with others can be virtually invulnerable against cavalry…from the front, if their flanks are protected. But those same cavalry let loose on the wings or rear will make quick work of a phalanx. 
 

As for the Dothraki as cavalry, another note is we see virtually no evidence of them operating as part of a mixed force. That is a specific way of fighting that in some ways requires very different skills than does operating in an entirely/predominantly mounted force. Now this is not a deal killer…given time to train in that, master horsemen like the Dothraki would likely prove exceptional in this sphere too. But it would take time and in some ways it would require un-learning certain battlefield habits. 
 

Anyways, if they get time to operate as a coordinated force Dany’s army would likely be formidable. There are still weaknesses…if we use the most apt RL model, the Macedonian template, there are still weak spots required to be filled; especially non-phalanx heavy infantry (including the equivalent of hypaspists to serve as hinges) light infantry, siege trains/sappers, and it’s really hard to get a feel for Dothraki archer capabilities…the assumptions are based on the obvious RL models, but the Dothraki don’t fight like those models when we see them fight so it’s all a bit unknown. 

[astarkchoice]

Yeah her combined force landing in westeros could be potentualy  absolutely huge and way more than needed to conquer it ( so shel maybe  deal with others too?)

Once her allies win in mereen slavery is dead as every other slave sees her as a messiah to their fire god! The slaver cities ars done , new ghis able bodied pro slaver legions will be smashed and survivors taking home the pale mare! Itl be a slave uprising mixed with the enthusiasm of a holy war!!

The slaver free cities  are set to errupt and many of their leaders  have  already  sent the various sellsword forces  far out of the cities to fight over the disputed lands again!!  Half of volantis guard are fire worshippers and they have their own mini army too! We can assume the anti slaver faceless men have been gathering info (arya pov ) for a time to strike leaders worldwide and thus cripple any pro salvery fightback. Quarths fleet and camel corps will prob be hammered and their warlocks gone thus arent there to intimidate slaves anymore...quarth is safe behind its walls but will probably make peace fast.

The huge volantis fleet will probably surrender to the ironborn suckerpunch theyve been handed and join danerys forces! Add in she may win over the dothraki and/or bond to drogon.

So in terms of logistics we know shel have most of the ironfleet, volantis fleet and whatever fleet new ghis had to transport over their 6 legions and 100 elphants !! Given her rejection at quarth it would sorta fit that now theyl fall over themselves to supply their vast merchant fleets to her use. Add in the fleets of the newly liberated free cities.

Forces wise we see at the siege of meereen including the unsullied she has about 22k forces.  Shel be comming back with drogon possibly in full control and possibly 20k or so dothraki.

Assuming none of her troops die or the pale mare isnt too brutal then we can assume shel have  the pick of a  lot of the  surrendered slave troops , elephants , slingers and crossbowmen and whomever from the new ghis legions is healthy and wishes to switch sides..... so she could at least double her force before we talk dothraki additions!!! 

Now for the golden company to make sense it means ( in much smaller companies ) theres gotta be around 30k-40k sellswords blowing around essos to counter then easily enough.... with the free cities now wanting to support her they could loot the dead slavee masters and pay  that professional manpower to join her

She got 8k freedmen from mereen alone  so  we could assume a barely untrained rabble of 10s of thousands may want to join her from former slave cities, half the professional  tiger guards of volantis (probably a few k) and  some the high fire 1000 priests firey hand troops.

All in allpotentialy a giant force baced up by virtualy unstoppable airpower.

 

 

 

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

But they landed scattered all over the place not in one cohesive unit.

Because they were dependent on the Volantenes. But the point here is that George didn't even care to portray how this happened - it just did. He doesn't give shit about logistics. But he also made it clear the infrastructure to move a lot of people is there, ripe for the taking. Volantis arranged transport for the Golden Company only by way of using merchant ships. The Volantene navy didn't partake in that at all. And that's just one Free City. Dany might end up controlling all Free Cities on the mainland ... and she will have the Iron Fleet and whatever ships her people secure in Slaver's Bay.

Dany is likely to control her fleet and ensure her armada lands (for the most part) at the desired destination.

The idea with the Dothraki is not so much that Dany will actually move all of them ... but she could do it if she were forced to do it. The very fact that she is likely going to be the god-empress of all the Dothraki should cow her enemies into submission because if her enemies force her she could throw wave after wave of Dothraki against them.

The notion that Dany can be defeated in the field is very unlikely.

[Angel Eyes]

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Because they were dependent on the Volantenes. But the point here is that George didn't even care to portray how this happened - it just did. He doesn't give shit about logistics. But he also made it clear the infrastructure to move a lot of people is there, ripe for the taking. Volantis arranged transport for the Golden Company only by way of using merchant ships. The Volantene navy didn't partake in that at all. And that's just one Free City. Dany might end up controlling all Free Cities on the mainland ... and she will have the Iron Fleet and whatever ships her people secure in Slaver's Bay.

Dany is likely to control her fleet and ensure her armada lands (for the most part) at the desired destination.

The idea with the Dothraki is not so much that Dany will actually move all of them ... but she could do it if she were forced to do it. The very fact that she is likely going to be the god-empress of all the Dothraki should cow her enemies into submission because if her enemies force her she could throw wave after wave of Dothraki against them.

The notion that Dany can be defeated in the field is very unlikely.

Given Martin's emphasis on realism in the books, it's surprising he'd be so lax with logistics. Something else the show copied over.

[Lord Varys]

Just now, Angel Eyes said:

Given Martin's emphasis on realism in the books, it's surprising he'd be so lax with logistics. Something else the show copied over.

Not all the logistics, just the ones he doesn't care about.

I mean, have you ever thought how the hell the Targaryens could feed their many dragons in winter? How much meat they would have to waste on those beasts while many Westerosi starved in winter? How much would just Balerion have to eat per day?

The idea that Dany's gigantic army couldn't be moved because of 'logistics' is nonsense. If the plot demands that they go to Westeros, they will. And it seems that this is the point of Dany's plot because if she was supposed to go to Westeros with a small army or no army we would not see her gaining more and more strength.

[Angel Eyes]

31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not all the logistics, just the ones he doesn't care about.

I mean, have you ever thought how the hell the Targaryens could feed their many dragons in winter? How much meat they would have to waste on those beasts while many Westerosi starved in winter? How much would just Balerion have to eat per day?

The idea that Dany's gigantic army couldn't be moved because of 'logistics' is nonsense. If the plot demands that they go to Westeros, they will. And it seems that this is the point of Dany's plot because if she was supposed to go to Westeros with a small army or no army we would not see her gaining more and more strength.

So... Creatively it'll make sense because he wants it to happen?

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

So... Creatively it'll make sense because he wants it to happen?

Obviously ... like with all the children heroes.

[astarkchoice]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Given Martin's emphasis on realism in the books, it's surprising he'd be so lax with logistics. Something else the show copied over.

We still have 0 idea how a medieval society manages to survive  multiple year long winters! It would test many modern societies

[Wolf's Bane]

On 10/24/2022 at 11:32 PM, Only 89 selfies today said:

From our favorite author himself.  Listen to what George said about Dany's Unsullied soldiers.  This should put away all doubts as to how well they will do in Westeros.  The Unsullied will be superb in battle.  They will be better with the addition of the Dothraki.  Dany will have the advantage in battle in Westeros.  

The arguments that The Unsullied are ineffective soldiers do not hold water.  

 

 

The Unsullied are the best soldiers. They bring professionalism and discipline to her team.  Dany's military will grow significantly because many of the men she liberates will follow her. 

[astarkchoice]

2 hours ago, Wolf's Bane said:

The Unsullied are the best soldiers. They bring professionalism and discipline to her team.  Dany's military will grow significantly because many of the men she liberates will follow her. 

This is where medieval  military fantasy smashes into medieval military history and it does grind some people 

George could have made the unsullied non eunchs, huge slaves selected at birth  for height and size and it would have sat a lot better with most.

The fact is he made them eunchs and put them through training that should kill 90% or so of them due to them being cut.  But its georges world so we must accept it.

The fact is they are trained brutaly from birth so despite being weaker they should have  a very high level of individual skill with arms as well as ability to work and form up en masse with ease...adapting super fast  like a flock of birds mid air. This means theyd have to be effective in battle simply as they havent done anything but train from birth...again they shouldnt survive this trainimg but they do so we must accept it (maybe wine of courage  has high protien and test boosting qualities?) 

As we saw with dany their dicipline and utter obedience gives them  unsual uses in battle too, they can form up at speed  perfectly at night (very  very difficult), climb mountains , will attack or defend sucicidal odds if ordered.

 

The dothraki fits this bill too ...again due to lack of armour or seeming variety of weapons or siegecraft knowledge we are left to asssume that a)just like the slavers outside mereen that siegcraft specalists are easy to come by in essos and  b) to compensate for that lack of armour they must be all amazing riders, swordsmen , hawkeye like archers , great levels of  coordination of  groups on the gallop  and of course khals all smart tacticans and not battle of qohor level idiots.

Edited June 20, 2023 by astarkchoice

[SaffronLady]

On 6/20/2023 at 4:49 PM, astarkchoice said:

khals all smart tacticans

IIRC there was this one khal that proved the Unsullied were the better tactic executors. I wonder how that influences creating a combined Unsullied-Dothraki force. Do both sides even remember that fight?

[astarkchoice]

30 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

IIRC there was this one khal that proved the Unsullied were the better tactic executors. I wonder how that influences creating a combined Unsullied-Dothraki force. Do both sides even remember that fight?

Theyl remember the legend of it yes but wont affect them working together

[Quoth the raven,]

On 10/25/2022 at 10:32 AM, Only 89 selfies today said:

From our favorite author himself.  Listen to what George said about Dany's Unsullied soldiers.  This should put away all doubts as to how well they will do in Westeros.  The Unsullied will be superb in battle.  They will be better with the addition of the Dothraki.  Dany will have the advantage in battle in Westeros.  

The arguments that The Unsullied are ineffective soldiers do not hold water.  

 

 

The Unsullied will be fighting a Westeros army made up of laborers and farmers who occasionally play at soldiering.  Don't expect much fight from Westeros.  It will be much easier to just start another field of fire and barbecue the Stark forces and their wildling friends rather than going through the trouble of meeting them in open battle. 

[Aldarion]

5 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

The Unsullied will be fighting a Westeros army made up of laborers and farmers who occasionally play at soldiering.  Don't expect much fight from Westeros.  It will be much easier to just start another field of fire and barbecue the Stark forces and their wildling friends rather than going through the trouble of meeting them in open battle. 

Yeah, that is wrong.

https://warfantasy.wordpress.com/2023/11/09/proof-that-westerosi-armies-are-professionals/

Also, in defensive warfare, part-time soldiers are often better than full-time mercenaries.

[astarkchoice]

The unsullied are too few to be anything more than a niche force. 

Now that said they clearly have tactical and strategic uses. A suicidaly loyal.force with fantasy level stamina (should be impossible for eunuchs but there it is). They can march faster and for longer thus securing battlefields for the main force following  speed is useful if they are to work with dothraki cavalry too !  (possibly both  followed by slow masses of former slaves following dany).

If danys forces are to be fanatical masses of former slaves following her it would be useful for.part.of the force to impose marching dicipline, work on weapon drills as well as setting up a proper camp.

The fact they are all seasoned mountain climbers + night marches mean they would be excellent to secure fortified positions with silent night attacks...silently and without protest wading quietly into icy moats quietly and then risking dangerous night wall climbing.

Overall on reflection they probably were niche troops back in the ghiscari empire days too! The new ghis legions are probably more of an example of what the bulk of ghiscari legions were like. When fighting an enemy with dragons it may have been useful to have battalions of utterly loyal pain resistant troops...if a handful of commoners could overwhelm dragons in the dragonpit then its likely 1000s of unsullied could be used to swarm dragons when they are  on the ground.

[Darth Sidious]

On 6/20/2023 at 2:38 AM, Wolf's Bane said:

The Unsullied are the best soldiers. They bring professionalism and discipline to her team.  Dany's military will grow significantly because many of the men she liberates will follow her. 

They are the best soldiers in the world. The Dothraki khalasars on their own are already very, very strong and would destroy any Westerosi force the Lannisters could gather. But since Dany wants to avoid sacking the western cities, which belongs to her anyway, the inclusion of the Unsullied brings that professionalism, calm, order, organization, and discipline to her military. 

[Aldarion]

On 6/20/2023 at 8:38 AM, Wolf's Bane said:

The Unsullied are the best soldiers. They bring professionalism and discipline to her team.  Dany's military will grow significantly because many of the men she liberates will follow her. 

1 hour ago, Darth Sidious said:

They are the best soldiers in the world. The Dothraki khalasars on their own are already very, very strong and would destroy any Westerosi force the Lannisters could gather. But since Dany wants to avoid sacking the western cities, which belongs to her anyway, the inclusion of the Unsullied brings that professionalism, calm, order, organization, and discipline to her military. 

Are you two clones or sockpuppets? These arguments and wording are so similar it is creepy.

[SeanF]

Overall, I think logistics will count for far more than the quality of any type of soldier.

If Dany can bring even 30,000 soldiers to Westeros, that would be a huge military undertaking.

In turn, that means she will get nowhere, without local allies.

Or if the Others are sweeping South, people will have ceased caring about the fight for the IT, and bloodfeuds, and simply welcome any help they can get.

[astarkchoice]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

Overall, I think logistics will count for far more than the quality of any type of soldier.

If Dany can bring even 30,000 soldiers to Westeros, that would be a huge military undertaking.

In turn, that means she will get nowhere, without local allies.

Or if the Others are sweeping South, people will have ceased caring about the fight for the IT, and bloodfeuds, and simply welcome any help they can get.

To be fair i think shes been set up as the saviour for westeros. Her victory at slavers bay will.be the spark that has the flame religion slaves rise up in holy war and overthrow.most of essos

With that level of backing, the 2 huge navies in slavers baby (volantis and ironfleet) as well as a rightful claim + dragons to sway westeros lords to her..i think the unsullied will be an after thought, just an oversized bodyguard detail!

 

 

Edited January 10 by astarkchoice